StuartO Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Part of the controversy which this subject arises stems from some people getting a bit too evangelial about their preferred option - and dare I say it's usually the A Frame advocates, who having gone for that option, want everyone else to ignore the downside of it, as some of them, doning blinkers, choose to do. Human nature causes all of us to be tempted to justify what we've bought as being the best or even the only sensible option, because we've bought it and dont therefore want it to turn out to be a bad choice. For those of us who can remain relatively objective, both A Frames and Trailers can be relatively safe and reasonably convenient as a way of taking a small car with you behind a motorhome but there is a downside to each of them. A Frames relieve you of having to own and store (and load/unload) a trailer but they will need some ironmongery fitted to the car professionally and then you have to accept compromises, or at least imperfections, in brake efficiency of the car while being towed and a degradation of its front crumple zone if you crash in it when driving - and you will very likely get stopped and fined in Spain and perhaps in other countries too, even though UK will probably tolerate what you are doing. Using both trailers and A frames add risk to your motorhoming but not all that much of you use them properly. So you pays your money (perhaps rather more in the case of an A Frame than for a trailer) and you makes your choice. Good luck to those who decide on an A Frame, and to those who choose to use a trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 In this particular instance, it might be wise to consider the advisability of towing a car (on an A-frame or trailer) behind a 2011 Elddis Sunseeker 155. As will be apparent from the attached photo, the rear overhang is significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 How do people answer the question on their insurance proposal " has the car been modified in any way" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Joe90 - 2015-01-02 1:53 PM How do people answer the question on their insurance proposal " has the car been modified in any way" ? Easy, they just say 'have cut a large chunk of the crumple zone out and inserted a lump of old iron because I reckon this will be safer'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandaemon Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Just to open another can of worms - what became of the recent thread that it was no longer 'legal' to fit an A Frame to a new car registered after October 2014 ? !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 All of this 'conversation' has revolved around a frontal impact and many people I believe are over egging the debate by using terms such as 'cutting chunks out' when that is not the fact. Is there any difference between fitting the additional small box section to the front sub-frame for the eye bolt fixings and those that fit tow-bars to their vehicles / motorhomes - some of the older motorhomes having 'custom made' tow-bars made of angle iron, channel and box section which are not type approved ? I know most if not all manufacturers provide fixing points for tow-bars but these are for structural strength reasons but none that I know of have been subjected to in-depth testing regarding a rear end shunt and whether it would affect the crumple zone. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 AlanS - 2015-01-02 4:44 PM All of this 'conversation' has revolved around a frontal impact and many people I believe are over egging the debate by using terms such as 'cutting chunks out' when that is not the fact. Is there any difference between fitting the additional small box section to the front sub-frame for the eye bolt fixings and those that fit tow-bars to their vehicles / motorhomes - some of the older motorhomes having 'custom made' tow-bars made of angle iron, channel and box section which are not type approved ? I know most if not all manufacturers provide fixing points for tow-bars but these are for structural strength reasons but none that I know of have been subjected to in-depth testing regarding a rear end shunt and whether it would affect the crumple zone. Alan I guess the difference is how many pedestrians or other vulnerable roads users are hit by a vehicle going backwards.., 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I should think that rear impacts tend to be less severe than front. Also, there is a lot of deformable metal between the end of the car and the passengers, not a solid engine block. I don't think it is likely that anyone would fit a tow bar to a city-car, which is what these discussions are about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Joe90 - 2015-01-02 5:00 PM AlanS - 2015-01-02 4:44 PM All of this 'conversation' has revolved around a frontal impact and many people I believe are over egging the debate by using terms such as 'cutting chunks out' when that is not the fact. Is there any difference between fitting the additional small box section to the front sub-frame for the eye bolt fixings and those that fit tow-bars to their vehicles / motorhomes - some of the older motorhomes having 'custom made' tow-bars made of angle iron, channel and box section which are not type approved ? I know most if not all manufacturers provide fixing points for tow-bars but these are for structural strength reasons but none that I know of have been subjected to in-depth testing regarding a rear end shunt and whether it would affect the crumple zone. Alan I guess the difference is how many pedestrians or other vulnerable roads users are hit by a vehicle going backwards.., 8-) Aren't you moving the goal posts now talking about pedestrians ? Common sense would show that vehicle crumple zones are not relative to pedestrian safety - it is the shape and angle of the bonnet, height of the bumper and the materials used and thicknesses etc. that give it, or try to provide some sort of pedestrian 'safety' - although being hit by any vehicle, particularly a motorhome at 30 MPH isn't going to do a lot of good to them is it. On your point though, I am sure that thee are many pedestrians that have been injured by both tow-bars and tow-balls at the rear of a vehicle. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Sorry but if I was a pedestrian hit by a car with protruding fittings for an A frame, I think my ""No win no fee lawyers"" would make a field day out of the change of safety crumple zone. and probably find that on page 320 of your insurance document, that you did not make clear that ""modifications" which could affect pedestrian safety was met equals no insurance equals one hell ofa mess ! Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Ditto I suspect many people are towing cars without having checked with their insurers, most of whom will not cover the process. So what happens if, for example, the car unhitches itself and runs into a crowd at a bus stop? Will the car's insurer pay up - very unlikely unless you've got his prior written agreement since the car clearly wasn't being driven at the time. Will the towing vehicle's insurer pay up - normal insurance covers towed trailers for Third Party cover only. Well, maybe - unless, of course, they can make a case that what you were doing was illegal and thus not covered by the policy :-( Ignorance is bliss until the S*** hits the fan, if it was something I was going to do I would want to know chapter and verse what the insurance covered, and from what vehicle and policy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 tonyishuk - 2015-01-02 5:52 PM Sorry but if I was a pedestrian hit by a car with protruding fittings for an A frame, I think my ""No win no fee lawyers"" would make a field day out of the change of safety crumple zone. and probably find that on page 320 of your insurance document, that you did not make clear that ""modifications" which could affect pedestrian safety was met equals no insurance equals one hell ofa mess ! Rgds Where did the protruding fittings for the A Frame come from ? The 'eye' bolts can be removed when the A frame is detached after towing. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 all trailers built since 1989 have to have auto-reverse brakes meeting the braking efficiencies laid down in EC directive 71/320. This is achieved in normal trailers and caravans by having special wheel hubs which disengage the brake when turning backwards. This is clearly impossible with a towed car and it is thus impossible for a towed car to meet directive 71/320 as incorporated into the UK Construction and Use Regulations. A-frame sellers rely on the fact that neither of the above points has yet been tested by a court case." ;-) I'f I was going down the A Frame route I'd double check with my two respective insurers, I suspect that would make an interesting conversation. As I said above I suspect many people are towing cars without having checked with their insurers, most of whom will not cover the process. So what happens if, for example, the car unhitches itself and runs into a crowd at a bus stop? Will the car's insurer pay up - very unlikely unless you've got his prior written agreement since the car clearly wasn't being driven at the time. Will the towing vehicle's insurer pay up - normal insurance covers towed trailers for Third Party cover only. Well, maybe - unless, of course, they can make a case that what you were doing was illegal and thus not covered by the policy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleddytanhouse Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 Thank you Alan. I was just going to make the same point. I will be having an A frame that requires a second towing eye installed and that is the only modification to be carried out to the front of the car. The A frame supplier assures me that this is simple, as, the manufacturer has the fitting in place already to suit left hand drive versions of the car, which have their tow eye on the other side!!!! I do however now have a concern regarding a comment made earlier about cars registered after October 2014. My car is only 4 weeks old, so I need to check this out, but, where?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 AlanS - 2015-01-02 4:44 PM..........................Is there any difference between fitting the additional small box section to the front sub-frame for the eye bolt fixings and those that fit tow-bars to their vehicles / motorhomes - some of the older motorhomes having 'custom made' tow-bars made of angle iron, channel and box section which are not type approved ? I know most if not all manufacturers provide fixing points for tow-bars but these are for structural strength reasons but none that I know of have been subjected to in-depth testing regarding a rear end shunt and whether it would affect the crumple zone. Alan First and foremost, that a towbar is fitted to the rear of the vehicle, whereas the A-frame attachments are fitted to the front. I believe it is still the case that the most common accident involves a frontal impact on the drivers side (overtaking accidents), so it is the front crumple zones that seem the most relevant. Some older cars also have custom towbars: it depends on whether they were manufacturerd before TA came in, when the appropriate tow bar had to be TA'd for the car. I don't know if this approval involves crash testing the rear end, but it does include engineering assessment by the car manufacturer to establish that the towbar does not degrade the rear crumple zone. However, since the subject in hand is an A-frame attachment on a car, which in the case cited involved replacement of a deformable structural member by one with unknown qualities, I don't quite see the relevance of towbars. In relationship to motorhomes being rear ended, I rather fear that in most cases the crumple zone extends pretty much up to the cab! A coachbuilt would not be a vehicle in which I would choose to have any kind of accident, because so little testing has been carried out! Sadly, driving one remains something of an act of faith, IMO. I do it, but only because the alternatives are far less appealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 As I understand it the rear end of a car has a designed crumple zone and it absorbs the energy in a rear end collision as does the car that hits it. The point I am making is that by fitting a solid tow-bar to the rear of a vehicle it is, for this purpose, very similar to adding something to the front end sub-frame of a vehicle. Now the vehicle that has a high speed rear end into the vehicle in front 'relies' on both the frontal structure of their car and the rear end of the car that they hit to absorb the energy of that crash. Therefore I see little difference to that of a car with an A frame fixing point having a frontal crash. Yes, there are so many variables to consider too, i.e. speed, angle, deceleration at time of accident etc., etc. The question of insurance has also been proffered on many occasions and I agree that, like any sensible caravanner or motorhomer, you should tell your insurance company that you tow or intend to tow a vehicle, caravan, bike or whatever and the means of towing, i.e. trailer, A frame, etc. but how many do ? The same goes for the towed vehicle etc. I know it is digressing but how many motorhome owners who put their motorbikes or scooters in the garage of the motorhomes tell their insurers of this fact (petrol and thin tanks come to mind and fire or accident) ? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Alan I think it's more than sensible to ensure both insurers are fully in the picture, if some ones outfit was written off say and they found themselves 50 /75 k out of pocket they'll have wished they'd gone the extra mile in ensuring they were adequately covered rather than chancing their arm, just because many ignore the implications doesn't make it legal, if it did I'd probably take up crack cocaine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Joe90 - 2015-01-02 1:53 PM How do people answer the question on their insurance proposal " has the car been modified in any way" ? I already answered this query, on whether my unit ( Motorhome/A-Frame/Car) was properly insured and 'Road legal', I will go thru it again, for those who never read it. Motorhome 2 years old, (no MOT required) Insured with Caravan Club, informed them that a Towbar was fitted and that I would be towing my car, which is also Insured with them on a 'car-a-tow' A-frame,which has been professionaly fitted by one of 'Car-A-Tow's' Dealers. Car 4 years Old, Mot'd with A-frame Draw bar in place, Insured though the Caravan Club, Informed them (again) that this is the vehicle that would be towed behind my 'other' insured vehicle on a professionaly fitted A-frame, Twice got them to confirm that everything was 'OK', a supervisor was consulted, and again I was told that my complete unit was Insured Comprehensively. What more do you expect ? The answer is 'Yes' they were told. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Joe90 - 2015-01-02 6:13 PM Ditto I suspect many people are towing cars without having checked with their insurers, most of whom will not cover the process. So what happens if, for example, the car unhitches itself and runs into a crowd at a bus stop? Will the car's insurer pay up - very unlikely unless you've got his prior written agreement since the car clearly wasn't being driven at the time. Will the towing vehicle's insurer pay up - normal insurance covers towed trailers for Third Party cover only. Well, maybe - unless, of course, they can make a case that what you were doing was illegal and thus not covered by the policy :-( Ignorance is bliss until the S*** hits the fan, if it was something I was going to do I would want to know chapter and verse what the insurance covered, and from what vehicle and policy This is simply conjecture, and in my case Untrue. Insurer= The Caravan Club for both vehicles ALL details placed before them. So, your suspicions are plain WRONG. On the long Drive back to Wales today, I amused myself with thoughts on the 'Crumple Zones' topic, and made a game out of spotting vehicles that had obstructions on either the front or rear that could cause 'extra damage' in a frontal or rear Shunt. How about a complete Fork lift truck suspended by chains, hanging off the back of an HGV ? Or A Tractor towing a muck spreader, with 'Business end' open exposing 'Mincer Blades' full of Shix to following traffic (not on the M4, but still a major road !) Or a Land Rover with a Hefty winch mounted on the front, along with a second towing bracket, on the front. Forget His (or your) crumple zone if he hit you. A multitude of saloon cars with Bycycles, some as many as 4, loosely attached to their rears, swinging in the breeze at 70 mph. No, A-frame Brackets are definately 'Small fry' in the 'Danger game' on our Roads. Ray PS, If I found a million quids worth of Crack Cocaine, I would take great delight in pouring petrol over it and setting it on fire. Whoever it belonged to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flightcom Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 This may be relevant. Met a chap in Spain a few months ago who was using an A frame for his small car but was buying a trailer instead. He says this is because A frames are soon to be made illegal in Spain and he suspects will be followed by France and the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 It's just as much conjecture to assume that everyone is like you in ensuring they are fully insured and legal ;-) But it is something that interests me due to my wifes worsening mobility so I'll telephone both of my insurers first thing Monday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 flightcom - 2015-01-02 10:38 PM This may be relevant. Met a chap in Spain a few months ago who was using an A frame for his small car but was buying a trailer instead. He says this is because A frames are soon to be made illegal in Spain and he suspects will be followed by France and the UK. Please keep up, sorry, just realised you are new to the forum. many many folks have been 'nobbled' in Spain for this, which is why I am not going there any time soon, or until they come to their senses. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandaemon Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Long Discussion here re legality after October : http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/community/discussions/information,-technical-tips-advice/motorhomes/A-Frame-car-towing-and-changes-in-the-law/rt/708940/?p=10 and here : http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/A-Frames/34646/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 flightcom - 2015-01-02 10:38 PM This may be relevant. Met a chap in Spain a few months ago who was using an A frame for his small car but was buying a trailer instead. He says this is because A frames are soon to be made illegal in Spain and he suspects will be followed by France and the UK. Spain has a straightforward no-messing motoring regulation that prohibits (except in an emergency) a motor vehicle fom towing another motor vehicle. It is generally accepted that, if any motorcaravanner (irrespective of nationality) A-frames in Spain, there is a real risk that they will be fined. It used to be understood by French motorcaravanners that they were not permitted to A-frame in France because the equipment used to do this (ie. the A-frame itself) lacked the necessary technical approval. This was challenged and A-frames began to be marketed there over the last few years. Advice from interested bodies (eg. French motorhome clubs) has always been that A-framing contravenes French motoring law, but this did not stop A-frame equipment from being marketed in France and from French motorcaravanners buying A-frames and towing with them there. In November 2013 clarification was sought from the French Assemblee Nationale. The question and May 2014 response are here: http://questions.assemblee-nationale.fr/q14/14-42452QE.htm The response concludes with the statement that, other than in specific ‘emergency’ situations, the only legal and safe way to transport a car behind a motorhome is to put it on a trailer designed for car-carrying. There has, unsurprisingly, been a reaction to this on French motorhome forums, with some people saying “I’ve been A-framing for years. It’s safe. Never had any problems with the police. My insurer’s happy.” and others saying “What about the unauthorised modifications to the car and the car’s braking? As the practice conflicts with French motoring law, what happens if an accident occurs?” It’s all horribly familiar somehow, though one throwaway line in a long multi-page French forum thread (that the forum’s administrator eventually ‘locks’ when the name-calling became too offensive) mentions that some French insurer providers who had previously offered A-framing cover would no longer do so. It needs emphasising that the question put to the Assemblee Nationale and the response concern themselves with French motorcaravanners towing cars in France. To the best of my knowledge no motorcaravanner (French or otherwise) has been fined for A-framing in France and I don’t know if the French authorities have made any sort of decision on how to treat non-French A-framers travelling in France. As far as I’m aware, there are no indications that the UK regulations that have applied (and currently apply) to UK motorcaravanners A-framing in the UK will change in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Rayjsj - 2015-01-02 10:17 PM Joe90 - 2015-01-02 6:13 PM .... I suspect many people are towing cars without having checked with their insurers.... This is simply conjecture, and in my case Untrue. Insurer= The Caravan Club for both vehicles ALL details placed before them. So, your suspicions are plain WRONG.... The fact that you tell your insurer doesn't make Joe wrong at all. He said "many" not "all". He might be wrong of course, but you are not presenting any evidence of that. If he says "suspect" then it is conjecture; so at least you got that bit right - but it doesn't folow that conjecture is wrong or of no value. As it happens I suspect he's right and most people won't think they need to tell their insurer they are towing - I don't think I have. Your posts are often interesting and valuable but you would have more credibility if you didn't get quite so carried away sometimes, eh? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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