Towing small car

[Billggski]

Thank you, Derek, for your usual informed and thorough appraisal of the situation.

There is so much uninformed conjecture about this (and other) issues that just confuse everyone.

Not that the situation is any clearer for France, but Spain is clearly a no-no.

[Derek Uzzell]

cleddytanhouse - 2015-01-02 6:29 PM

 

Thank you Alan. I was just going to make the same point. I will be having an A frame that requires a second towing eye installed and that is the only modification to be carried out to the front of the car. The A frame supplier assures me that this is simple, as, the manufacturer has the fitting in place already to suit left hand drive versions of the car, which have their tow eye on the other side!!!!

I do however now have a concern regarding a comment made earlier about cars registered after October 2014. My car is only 4 weeks old, so I need to check this out, but, where??

 

I hesitate to say this, but I believe you are being naive.

 

While it will often be the case that a car has a frontal towing-point on each side, the car’s manufacturer will not have designed those towing points with A-frame towing in mind. Towing a car for long distances on an A-frame via its front towing-points is hardly the same as using the towing-point to pull a car out of a ditch in an emergency or towing it a short distance to a safe place or to a garage for repairs.

 

As I mentioned earlier, there’s also the matter of what you’ll be using as the tow-vehicle.

 

If one were to choose a motorhome suitable for A-frame towing a car, I’m doubtful that many people with basic technical understanding would opt for a Sunseeker 155. When the front of a motorhome begins to turn, its rear end will move in the opposite direction. When a motorhome has a long rear overhang that is a large percentage of the vehicle’s wheelbase, the motorhome’s rear end will move a long way when the vehicle turns. This is not good news for a car being A-frame towed, as it’s going to put a lot of lateral stress on where the A-frame attaches to the car. There’s also the possibility that the car’s front wheels will fail to ‘caster’ properly when the turn made by the motorhome is particularly sharp.

 

I don’t think you’ve said whether your motorhome has a tow-bar. If it has not (or even if it has) it would be wise to check carefully what sort of framework there is under the floor from the vehicle’s rear wheels backwards, as some motorhomes are lightly constructed there. Don’t forget that you’ll have a tonne or so of car jerking about back there.

 

Given a Sunseeker 155’s design, as a preventative measure you might also consider fitting air-assistance to the rear axle. For example

 

http://marcleleisure.co.uk:443/

 

This should minimise any tendency when towing of the tail wagging the dog.

[Rayjsj]

StuartO - 2015-01-03 9:28 AM

 

Rayjsj - 2015-01-02 10:17 PM

 

Joe90 - 2015-01-02 6:13 PM

 

.... I suspect many people are towing cars without having checked with their insurers....

 

This is simply conjecture, and in my case Untrue. Insurer= The Caravan Club for both vehicles ALL details placed before them. So, your suspicions are plain WRONG....

 

The fact that you tell your insurer doesn't make Joe wrong at all. He said "many" not "all". He might be wrong of course, but you are not presenting any evidence of that. If he says "suspect" then it is conjecture; so at least you got that bit right - but it doesn't folow that conjecture is wrong or of no value. As it happens I suspect he's right and most people won't think they need to tell their insurer they are towing - I don't think I have.

 

Your posts are often interesting and valuable but you would have more credibility if you didn't get quite so carried away sometimes, eh? :-)

 

Thank you, we all tend to get a bit 'carried away' on here don't we ? sitting in our warm vans/houses facing nothing more challenging than a screen. I suspect we would probably all get along fine,sitting around a table in a Pub, discussing it over a pint.

personally, anyone who drives without Insurance wants 'locking up' pronto, In that I think we are all in agreance. Once an Insurance company has had all the facts put before it though,AND taken the fee,

If the 'worst' does happen, they shouldn't then develop 'a denial posistion' after all, most of these telephone conversations are recorded (as they keep warning us) aren't they ?

Perhaps we should all 'Agree to differ' on this subject now ? I think the original poster has had his answers from enough differant viewpoints. Over and out ! Ray

[Brian Kirby]

I would add two things to Derek's post above.

 

First: ground clearance. With an extensive rear overhang, grounding of the rear is a perennial risk. This can only be exacerbated by the substantial framework needed to mount and support the towball. I would therefore suggest you look closely at any towbars you are considering having added from this standpoint.

 

Second, in addition to the point Derek makes regarding the way the rear will swing out on turns, consider the fact that the rear of your van will be continually moving laterally on any road that is not billiard-table smooth. This is easily observed when following any motorhome (or other vehicle) with an extensive rear overhang.

 

It is a common source of instability with conventional trailers, but that should not affect a flat towed car. What will affect the car, however, is that this lateral sway will be continually pulling the front of the car left and right, causing the steering wheel to windmill in opposite directions as it does so. This seems to me liable to cause accellerated wear on the steering components. If the car's steering is stiff, the net result will be the car acting as a lateral damper to the rear of your van, which seems likely to punish the A-frame attachment points at both ends of the frame.

 

If you want to tow anything with reasonable stability and minimal wear, a short rear overhang is essential. This knowledge is long established among caravanners, even though the overhangs of most tow cars are minimal compared to the type of van with which you are, apparently, intending to tow. Sorry to rain on your parade.

[cleddytanhouse]

Thanks again for all the advice. I did not think that when I asked the original question, it would result in such controversity! !!!!!

On my journey today from South Wales to Swindon and back, I saw two motorhomes, both towing trailers with a car onboard. There of couse others obviously happy with just the MH.

I am new to motorhoming, having purchased the Ellidis 155 in September and already thinking that I may change to one with air con, cruise control and an island bed, PLUS a tow bar for the car OR trailer.

The 155 already has a tow bar, so I assume that the previous owner may have towed a car.

If I do change the MH, I hope that I don't lose too much on a new purchase!!!!!

[Brian Kirby]

If you do change, Chris, I'd suggest you a) first get a few more miles under your belt with your present van and b) hold off on towing the car until after you change. It is strange how one's expectations and horizons change as the miles roll by. You may find that the vans you presently favour are no longer what you then want. It's a funny game that way, this motorhoming lark! :-)

 

You presently seem to be favouring largish vans, which themselves create some of the difficulties you are seeking to overcome with the towed car.

 

Also, the larger the van the heavier it will be, which may lead to payload problems if you are, or may in future become, restricted to 3,500kg by your driving licence. Even if driving over 3,500kg is not a problem now, depending on your general health, it may become one once you reach 70. From then on you will have to pass a medical every three years to retain an over 3,500kg licence.

 

When looking for a van with which to tow the car, I would suggest prioritising those with shorter rear overhangs - even though this implies longer relative wheelbase vehicles with consequently greater turning circles - and check very carefully what is the maximum towing weight. It is easy to find just the right van, only to discover that some of the normally available Gross Train Weight has been hijacked by the converter, leaving insufficient to cope with a towed car - whether on an A-frame or a trailer.

[tonyishuk]

AlanS - 2015-01-02 6:14 PM

 

tonyishuk - 2015-01-02 5:52 PM

 

Sorry

 

but if I was a pedestrian hit by a car with protruding fittings for an A frame, I think my ""No win no fee lawyers"" would make a field day out of the change of safety crumple zone.

 

and probably find that on page 320 of your insurance document, that you did not make clear that ""modifications" which could affect pedestrian safety was met

 

equals no insurance

 

equals one hell ofa mess !

 

Rgds

 

Where did the protruding fittings for the A Frame come from ? The 'eye' bolts can be removed when the A frame is detached after towing.

Alan

 

I take your point but

 

1) Surprising how many toad cars I see on site still have the fittings fitted, and I assume are used on the road.

 

2) I have no loyalty ! I would look for bolt fixings from my prone position on the road after being hit by a small, maybe toad, car.

 

:D

 

Rgds

[cleddytanhouse]

This has just become a complete nightmare. I have just read another blog, that appears to confirm that my only option is a trailer. Apparently, the law has changed for new cars / new A frames and they may longer be legal to use, whilst, existing one may be ok.

So it looks like I have no choice but to buy a trailer, which currently is not a problem to store, but, we hope to move house soon and parking a trailer, motorhome and two cars restricts our choice when we move back to Somerset.

I supose that I was not happy with modifying a new car with 7 years warranty.

I will of course notify my insurer's.

Still need to sort the air Con issue. Change van or pay nearly £3000 with no increase in value? ?????

[Rayjsj]

Can't let this pass by without a comment, My Present 'Toad' car is a 4 year old Toyota Yaris, I intend to change it during this year, for a 2015 Model, I WILL be getting it converted, professionally by the Car-A-Tow Dealer after it is delivered, evidently my present Draw bar will fit the present Yaris, so only the fitting charge will be extra. My new vehicle will not require an MOT for 3 years. My Insurer will continue to be the Caravan Club. Who will again be informed that the vehicle will be altered to be towed behind my other Vehicle Insured with them, my Motorhome. My advice is to go for it. A trailer is beyond my weight towing capability, are you sure your 155 has the towing capacity ?

Regards Ray

[cleddytanhouse]

How do I find out the towing capacity? The Picanto is 930kg and the trailer is approx 450kg I think.

[StuartO]

Your MH will have a plate somewhere, showing (in descending order) the gross train weight (i.e. loaded MH plus trailer and load) the maximum loaded weight for the MH and the max allowable weight for each axle. So four figures in total. Subtract the second largest figure from the largest and you have the towing capacity.

 

450 kg sounds a bit high for the unladn weight of a car trailer, so you might want to check that.

[Derek Uzzell]

Weight-related details should also be available in the motorhome’s handbook.

 

This is the file for 2011 Elddis models and relevant information on the 155 model is on Page 18-3

 

http://www.elddis.co.uk/documents/Brochures/2011/2011-Autoquest-Handbook.pdf

 

The maximum towing limit of a 155 is given as 2000kg - more than sufficient for a small car + trailer.

 

However (as Stuart has said) care needs to be taken that the weight maxima shown on the vehicle’s data-plate are not exceeded.

[colin]

Rayjsj - 2015-01-04 9:04 PM

 

Can't let this pass by without a comment, My Present 'Toad' car is a 4 year old Toyota Yaris, I intend to change it during this year, for a 2015 Model, I WILL be getting it converted, professionally by the Car-A-Tow Dealer after it is delivered, evidently my present Draw bar will fit the present Yaris, so only the fitting charge will be extra. My new vehicle will not require an MOT for 3 years. My Insurer will continue to be the Caravan Club. Who will again be informed that the vehicle will be altered to be towed behind my other Vehicle Insured with them, my Motorhome. My advice is to go for it. A trailer is beyond my weight towing capability, are you sure your 155 has the towing capacity ?

Regards Ray

 

Ray, what have they got to say on type approval for your new set up? I've looked at their site and it makes no mention.

[AlanS]

Derek Uzzell - 2015-01-05 9:55 AM

 

Weight-related details should also be available in the motorhome’s handbook.

 

This is the file for 2011 Elddis models and relevant information on the 155 model is on Page 18-3

 

http://www.elddis.co.uk/documents/Brochures/2011/2011-Autoquest-Handbook.pdf

 

The maximum towing limit of a 155 is given as 2000kg - more than sufficient for a small car + trailer.

 

However (as Stuart has said) care needs to be taken that the weight maxima shown on the vehicle’s data-plate are not exceeded.

 

I had a look at that too Derek but thought the 2000 kg figure as high given the MIRO of the motorhome. There was no mention what the Gross train Weight of the vehicle was in the brochure from which you could confirm the actual towing weight.

Alan

[Rayjsj]

colin - 2015-01-05 10:01 AM

 

Rayjsj - 2015-01-04 9:04 PM

 

Can't let this pass by without a comment, My Present 'Toad' car is a 4 year old Toyota Yaris, I intend to change it during this year, for a 2015 Model, I WILL be getting it converted, professionally by the Car-A-Tow Dealer after it is delivered, evidently my present Draw bar will fit the present Yaris, so only the fitting charge will be extra. My new vehicle will not require an MOT for 3 years. My Insurer will continue to be the Caravan Club. Who will again be informed that the vehicle will be altered to be towed behind my other Vehicle Insured with them, my Motorhome. My advice is to go for it. A trailer is beyond my weight towing capability, are you sure your 155 has the towing capacity ?

Regards Ray

 

Ray, what have they got to say on type approval for your new set up? I've looked at their site and it makes no mention.

 

Type Approval was not mentioned by me or them, just confirmation that my present Bracket Fitment would also fit the new 2015 model, which made me very happy, They will also be fitting it, and returning my present car back to it's original condition, 'crumple tin' as well. Some time early spring ,before next trip out.

I am not entirley 'happy' with Type approval, I refer to the demise of Romahome Moncoque coachbuilt Motorhomes, they have had to cease production onto new Chassis, because of 'type approval' on the new chassis. That is a restriction on trade, and probably cost a few skilled British Jobs.

My new Toyota is (will be) MY property and I will do with it as I please.

Wonder what the 'Type approval' gremlins would think of some of the 'Wilder' Vehicles coverted into Motorhomes in New Zealand ??? with Timber sheds and balconies tacked onto them.

I too think that 2000kg is a bit high, My Autotrail Savannah has a similar 'overhang' at the rear, and only has a 1060 kg max towing limit, which rules out any Trailer + a Car. My rear tow bar, a Witter recommended by Autotrail, included much rear chassis strengthening, which obviously proved the extra cost, which had suprised me £785. Gulp !

Anyway happy motorhoming in 2015 ! Ray

[colin]

Rayjsj - 2015-01-05 12:51 PM

 

colin - 2015-01-05 10:01 AM

 

Rayjsj - 2015-01-04 9:04 PM

 

Can't let this pass by without a comment, My Present 'Toad' car is a 4 year old Toyota Yaris, I intend to change it during this year, for a 2015 Model, I WILL be getting it converted, professionally by the Car-A-Tow Dealer after it is delivered, evidently my present Draw bar will fit the present Yaris, so only the fitting charge will be extra. My new vehicle will not require an MOT for 3 years. My Insurer will continue to be the Caravan Club. Who will again be informed that the vehicle will be altered to be towed behind my other Vehicle Insured with them, my Motorhome. My advice is to go for it. A trailer is beyond my weight towing capability, are you sure your 155 has the towing capacity ?

Regards Ray

 

Ray, what have they got to say on type approval for your new set up? I've looked at their site and it makes no mention.

 

Type Approval was not mentioned by me or them, just confirmation that my present Bracket Fitment would also fit the new 2015 model, which made me very happy, They will also be fitting it, and returning my present car back to it's original condition, 'crumple tin' as well. Some time early spring ,before next trip out.

I am not entirley 'happy' with Type approval, I refer to the demise of Romahome Moncoque coachbuilt Motorhomes, they have had to cease production onto new Chassis, because of 'type approval' on the new chassis. That is a restriction on trade, and probably cost a few skilled British Jobs.

My new Toyota is (will be) MY property and I will do with it as I please.

Wonder what the 'Type approval' gremlins would think of some of the 'Wilder' Vehicles coverted into Motorhomes in New Zealand ??? with Timber sheds and balconies tacked onto them.

I too think that 2000kg is a bit high, My Autotrail Savannah has a similar 'overhang' at the rear, and only has a 1060 kg max towing limit, which rules out any Trailer + a Car. My rear tow bar, a Witter recommended by Autotrail, included much rear chassis strengthening, which obviously proved the extra cost, which had suprised me £785. Gulp !

Anyway happy motorhoming in 2015 ! Ray

 

From what I can make out of the regs it needs inspection at approved station to make it legal, this leads to the intriguing stituation that one might be legal eu wide if passing.

[Derek Uzzell]

AlanS - 2015-01-05 10:05 AM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2015-01-05 9:55 AM

 

Weight-related details should also be available in the motorhome’s handbook.

 

This is the file for 2011 Elddis models and relevant information on the 155 model is on Page 18-3

 

http://www.elddis.co.uk/documents/Brochures/2011/2011-Autoquest-Handbook.pdf

 

The maximum towing limit of a 155 is given as 2000kg - more than sufficient for a small car + trailer.

 

However (as Stuart has said) care needs to be taken that the weight maxima shown on the vehicle’s data-plate are not exceeded.

 

I had a look at that too Derek but thought the 2000 kg figure as high given the MIRO of the motorhome. There was no mention what the Gross train Weight of the vehicle was in the brochure from which you could confirm the actual towing weight.

Alan

 

Using Auto-Trail’s 2011 brochure as a guide, the nearest A-T model to a Sunseeker 155 would probably be an Apache 634 built on a Fiat Ducato 35 Light chassis.

 

The Apache 634 weight-data maxima are:

 

Gross vehicle weight = 3500kg

Gross train weight = 4620kg

Front axle loading = 1850kg

Rear axle loading = 2000kg

 

The maximum towing weight is said to be 1120kg, which is the Gross train weight minus the Gross vehicle weight.

 

However, I believe you’ll find that Elddis’s 2000kg figure merely indicates the maximum towing weight that the chassis is designed to handle. So (purely in principle) if a Sunseeker 155 with a Gross vehicle weight of 3500kg and a Gross train weight of 4620kg could somehow be operated at an ‘on the road’ weight of 2620kg, it would be permissible to tow a weight of 2000kg. Essentially, the lighter the weight that the motorhome can be operated at, the higher the ‘trailer’ can be, with the motorhome’s Gross train weight and the 2000kg towing limit being the restricting factors.

 

In reality a Sunseeker 155 can be expected to weigh well over 3000kg (perhaps even over 3500kg) when in fully-loaded holiday trim, which will impact on the potential 2000kg ‘mechanical’ limit. In priinciple it could tow 2000kg: in practice not.

 

The only sure way of deciding what weight Chris’s motorhome could legally tow would be to weigh it fully loaded. Once that had been established the car could be weighed and it would then become evident whether trailer-towing the car would be legally viable.

[Derek Uzzell]

Duplicate removed.

[tonyishuk]

Following this thread with some interest as I am investigating trailer and car at present. I have a 2000kg capacity for towing (+ a little if not pay-loaded to the hilt !!)

 

One question I asked may threads ago was " Is there a car which can pull its own trailer ?" I got some answers and it seems that my best bet would be a Yaris.

 

The reason for being able to tow the trailer by the car is that I can drive to the motor home with car and trailer and return with the motor-home pulling the trailer and car.

 

However, I do seem to recall from reading something, that if a car is pulling a trailer, the towing capacity of the car must be that of the fully loaded trailer, even if the trailer is empty.

 

To quote the Yaris case;

The Yaris can tow a 550 kg braked trailer. (An empty trailer suitable to carry a Yaris is about 400Kg)

A trailer with a Yaris on it weighs about 1400kg.

So 1400 kg is the figure that should be applied to the Yaris not 550kg in the case of the Yaris towing a car trailer even though the trailer is empty.

 

I appreciate that a Yaris should not be towing a loaded trailer at 1400kg !

 

Any one come across this ? I do not know if it is a weight issue, or a driving licence issue , or even a non-issue ?

 

 

 

Rgds

 

 

[Rayjsj]

Don't know if it is a fact or not, but the Toyota Sales website, shows the latest tow capacity weight for the 2015 Yaris as 0, yes 0, can't believe that thats true ? Anyone know why ? Ray

[StuartO]

Replating trailers is simpler and less official that vehicles, so you can reduce a trailer's gross weight as much as you like. You may not, of course, increase it above the manufacturer's values.

 

If you were stopped by police in your Yaris, towing the empty trailer, the police could simply look at the trailer's plated MAM and assume you were towing that, so your Yaris would be towing too much. A prosecution would be valid.

 

However you can "downsize" a trailer simply by applying a different plate or even by putting a sticker over the MAM value on the plate showing a lower figure. You could therefore put "MAM=400kg" covering up the plated figure for purpose of towing empty with the Yaris and remove it for towing with the MH.

 

It sounds crazy but our local trailer dealer told me this would be legal. It would be ahrd hearted policeman who prosecuted you if the trailer was obviously empty anyway as long as you could show them the trailer manufacturer's documents to show its unladen weight was only 400kg.

[Derek Uzzell]

Rayjsj - 2015-01-05 8:15 PM

 

Don't know if it is a fact or not, but the Toyota Sales website, shows the latest tow capacity weight for the 2015 Yaris as 0, yes 0, can't believe that thats true ? Anyone know why ? Ray

 

A possible explanation is provided in the FAQ section of the NTTA website.

 

When referring to how a vehicle’s towing capacity is calculated this is said

 

"Note: Certain performance, hybrid and city-car models or similar variants of standard models are not homologated to tow, this means that the vehicle manufacturer has deemed that the model is unsuitable for use as a tow vehicle. With this type of vehicle the towing capacity will equate to zero or a gross train weight will not be displayed."

[Derek Uzzell]

StuartO

 

I’m not sure there would be a need nowadays to ‘downplate’ an empty trailer to allow Tony to legally do what he wants.

 

This horse-related 2012 thread refers to revised VOSA guidelines

 

http://www.trotonline.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?44813-New-clear-VOSA-guidelines-You-DON-T-need-to-replate-your-trailer!

 

It’s evident that trailer weight is of great interest to people who transport horses, with driving licence entitlement being the main concern. Received wisdom appears to be that, while trailers can be downplated, the revised plate must be provided by the trailer’s manufacturer - you can’t just stick a home-made label on the trailer to decrease its MAM.

 

UK trailer law is complex (and not necessarily rational). In Tony’s shoes I’d seek advice from the police and the DVSA (previously VOSA). The question is simple enough...

 

If a car has a towing limit of 550kg and a braked trailer has an unloaded weight of 400kg and a plated fully-loaded weight of 1400kg - is it legally permissible for the car to be used to tow the trailer when the trailer is carrying no load?

[Brian Kirby]

tonyishuk - 2015-01-05 4:36 PM...............However, I do seem to recall from reading something, that if a car is pulling a trailer, the towing capacity of the car must be that of the fully loaded trailer, even if the trailer is empty.

 

To quote the Yaris case;

The Yaris can tow a 550 kg braked trailer. (An empty trailer suitable to carry a Yaris is about 400Kg)

A trailer with a Yaris on it weighs about 1400kg.

So 1400 kg is the figure that should be applied to the Yaris not 550kg in the case of the Yaris towing a car trailer even though the trailer is empty....................

As Derek suggests, check this carefully. I'm pretty clear that GTW is a mechanically derived restriction based on the maximum load with which the vehicle can drive off in first gear on a specified (not known by me) gradient.

 

It was the case that this applied to the actual laden weight (ALW) of the vehicle plus trailer, and not the MAM of either. It is an offence to exceed GTW but, to the best of my knowledge, providing the trailer ALW does not exceed the towing limit of the vehicle, is not overloaded, the tow bar draw weight and downforces are not exceeded, and the GTW of the vehicle is not exceeded, no infringement arises.

 

The point of the plated MAM on the trailer is purely relevant to the actual load on the trailer plus its self-weight. That is under UK law, as I understand it.

 

Continental law is, as ever, different, and I believe commonly adds the trailer MAM to the vehicle MAM to assess whether GTW is infringed.

 

However, it is possible that an EU Directive has imposed the Continental ruling on the UK in the past few years, which is why I recommend checking.

 

You may get a better indication of the present position by consulting the Caravan Club who, for obvious reasons, closely monitor the legalities of this issue. For example, you might ask if it is legal for a small car to tow (for the purpose of merely moving it from A to B) an unladen caravan that weighs less than the car's towing limit, if the caravan's plated MAM exceeds the car's towing limit. I'd be interested to know the answer when/if you get one.

[Derek Uzzell]

It’s perhaps worth adding that, if it’s the ‘plated’ weight (ie. the MAM) of a trailer that dominates legally when the trailer is being towed (irrespective of whether or not the trailer has a load on it), logically that should also apply to a car when it transforms into a trailer when being A-frame towed. This is, in fact, suggested on the NTTA website’s FAQ page

 

"I have a motor home and want to tow a Fiat Seicento behind it using an A-frame. This car has a kerb weight under 750 kg so am I legal with this outfit?

 

Sorry no is the answer. The law regards this as an unbraked trailer and you are allowed to tow up to 750 kg Gross Trailer Weight, not a car's kerb weight. The figure you have to use is the car's Gross Vehicle Weight or Maximum Permitted Weight. This is usually at least 300 - 400 kg more than the kerb weight. We have no knowledge of any car sold in the UK that has a GVW under 750 kg. The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100. An A-frame or dolly can only be used to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. Transporting a car is, therefore, illegal. A-frames may be offered with a braking system that applies the car's brakes. These do not conform to the law as the car then becomes a "braked trailer" and has to conform to European Directives contained within the Construction and Use Regulations. It does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way. The use of this A-frame for transportation is illegal. It is still OK for use to recover a vehicle to a place of safety.”

 

This came up years ago on the forum and the NTTA’s opinion was felt to be incorrect. I recall contacting the NTTA asking which UK regulations supported their it’s-the-MAM-that-counts statement and the response was on the lines of “Yes it does seem odd on reflection and I’ll ask our regulation-savvy guy about it and get back to you”. I never heard any more...