tonyishuk Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Brian I have asked the question !! Will wait for reply. Reasonably enough the helpful young lady on the CC Web chat could not not help. So I will have to wait 48 hrs for a reply from the Technical Department Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Rayjsj - 2015-01-05 8:15 PM Don't know if it is a fact or not, but the Toyota Sales website, shows the latest tow capacity weight for the 2015 Yaris as 0, yes 0, can't believe that thats true ? Anyone know why ? Ray My best guess is that Toyota UK do not want to get involved with this matter within the UK It seems that a number of manufacturers' cars, The Toyota IQ being one and some Smart cars, are legally allowed to tow on the continent and meet the Comment Market Directives on such matters, but UK suppliers seem to be unaware of the obligation to met these requirements in this country. Because the importer says no, the insurance company says no. In Germany , no problem to tow at all. AS an aside, the Toyota IQ can take a "tow-bar" bicycle rack made by Thule, up to a load of about 85KG (OK by Mr Toyota GB, as I asked the question), but no to having a tow-bar that can be used for towing. Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 After Brian's suggestion; I contacted both the Caravan Club and Brian James Trailers (Both of which replied very promptly, BJTrailers by phone call !) CC said that as long as the caravan if weighed does not exceed the towing limit of the car then you are legal. So maybe a trip to your local weighbridge to confirm the weight would be a good idea. BJTrailers said much the same but added the caveat that if the trailer is used for commercial use, the towing vehicle MUST be capable or towing the trailer at its maximum load, even if towed empty. Seems fairly definitive answers to me Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 These are a couple more links that may be of interest http://www.armitagetrailers.com/trailerlaw.htm (Note the REMEMBER caveat in the “Braked Trailers” section.) http://tinyurl.com/nj77tls I’ve e-mailed the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (previously VOSA) for guidance using an example similar to that mentioned in tonyishuk’s original Yaris-related posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Very good finds, Derek, those two links. DoT extremely clear. With apologies to Armitage Trailers, I found the following "snip" from their website on trailer law interesting, with special reference to the last paragraph. "New laws that apply to almost every trailer completed after 28-10-12 mean that very few new trailers can be sold or used in the UK unless they have an approval certifcate. This change has been brought about by a vehicle quality standardisation programme instituted by the United Nations, requiring whole vehicle type approval on new trailers made or sold in the UK. These rules have been in place in mainland Europe for many years. What it means to us in the UK is the end of cowboy trailer building. Every part of the manufacturing process and every bought-in part used to assemble a trailer now has to pass stringent quality controls. There are two main ways of achieving this approval. The larger manufacturers are expected to have sought and gained whole vehicle type approval certifcation for their trailers in much the same way as Jaguar, BMW or Ford have been granted type approval certificates for the cars they make. Smaller and specialist manufacturers, like ourselves, who do not have huge production runs of identical trailers, are more likely to go down the individual vehicle approval route. We, and companies like us, will submit every trailer we make for inspection by the UK Government's Vehicle and Operator Services Agency. VOSA's inspectors will go through every trailer with a fine-tooth comb, checking the quality of construction and of the materials used. They must also check that every bought-in component, such as brakes, axles, lights and hitches, has proper EC approval." So, if a flat towed (i.e. on an A-frame) post 28/10/12 manufactured car is legally to become a trailer, how has/will it be Type Approved? It seems plain the A-frame itself cannot be Type Approved as, in the absence of the attached car, it alone cannot be argued to be a trailer. It seems to me it is merely a component of a trailer that is created only when car and A-fame are united. It if that is so, also seems that a change of car using the same A-frame would requite a new TA application/approval, because the major part of the trailer (containing inter alia the braking system) would have changed. Or, am I just getting confused and/or over-excited? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleddytanhouse Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Just to clarify on this somewhat troubled topic, I have today spoken to both my car and motorhome insurers and both have confirmed that they accept that the car can be towed and that the motorhome can tow legally with the insurance that I have. Regarding the weight issue. The ECWVTA Certificate for my motorhome, confirms a maximum mass of a trailer as 2000kgs and a maximum mass of combination of 5500kgs Kia appear to suggest that if I have the car modified to have an A frame fitted, it could affect the warranty, so, it looks like a trailer is my only option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-01-07 2:24 PM These are a couple more links that may be of interest http://www.armitagetrailers.com/trailerlaw.htm (Note the REMEMBER caveat in the “Braked Trailers” section.) http://tinyurl.com/nj77tls I’ve e-mailed the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (previously VOSA) for guidance using an example similar to that mentioned in tonyishuk’s original Yaris-related posting. I have now received a reply from the DVSA. I gave as an example a car with a gross vehicle weight of 1025kg and a gross train weight of 1545kg, and a braked trailer with a plated gross weight of 1400kg that weighed 410kg when completely unloaded. I asked whether it was legally permissible for the car to tow the trailer when the trailer was in its unloaded 410kg-weight condition, or did the trailer’s plated gross weight of 1400kg prohibit this. The DVSA’s advice was "As long as the vehicle's gross weights are not exceeded, there is no problem with you towing a trailer with a potentially greater weight capacity." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Brian Kirby - 2015-01-07 6:41 PM Very good finds, Derek, those two links. DoT extremely clear. With apologies to Armitage Trailers, I found the following "snip" from their website on trailer law interesting, with special reference to the last paragraph. "New laws that apply to almost every trailer completed after 28-10-12 mean that very few new trailers can be sold or used in the UK unless they have an approval certifcate. This change has been brought about by a vehicle quality standardisation programme instituted by the United Nations, requiring whole vehicle type approval on new trailers made or sold in the UK. These rules have been in place in mainland Europe for many years. What it means to us in the UK is the end of cowboy trailer building. Every part of the manufacturing process and every bought-in part used to assemble a trailer now has to pass stringent quality controls. There are two main ways of achieving this approval. The larger manufacturers are expected to have sought and gained whole vehicle type approval certifcation for their trailers in much the same way as Jaguar, BMW or Ford have been granted type approval certificates for the cars they make. Smaller and specialist manufacturers, like ourselves, who do not have huge production runs of identical trailers, are more likely to go down the individual vehicle approval route. We, and companies like us, will submit every trailer we make for inspection by the UK Government's Vehicle and Operator Services Agency. VOSA's inspectors will go through every trailer with a fine-tooth comb, checking the quality of construction and of the materials used. They must also check that every bought-in component, such as brakes, axles, lights and hitches, has proper EC approval." So, if a flat towed (i.e. on an A-frame) post 28/10/12 manufactured car is legally to become a trailer, how has/will it be Type Approved? It seems plain the A-frame itself cannot be Type Approved as, in the absence of the attached car, it alone cannot be argued to be a trailer. It seems to me it is merely a component of a trailer that is created only when car and A-fame are united. It if that is so, also seems that a change of car using the same A-frame would requite a new TA application/approval, because the major part of the trailer (containing inter alia the braking system) would have changed. Or, am I just getting confused and/or over-excited? As refered to in my post at top of page two, but for existing designs it only came in to effect last year. Now if car-a-tow or whomever submit one for testing and it passes it should be legal worldwide, if it's not submitted or passed then it appears to be illegal. Edit should be top of page four. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 The legislation for trailers is covered here. http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/trailers.asp A small car with a frame will I believe be category O2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Thanks for the links Colin. Be interesting to see how this works out in practise. As far as I can see, because the "trailer" is a car, already TA'd as a car, its conversion into a trailer by fitting a drawbar (i.e. our A-frame), even with IVA, is going to get quite complicated. It seems the drawbar alone must first be TA'd (though it seems only once), and then the whole trailer unit with drawbar fitted TA'd again. To me, the implication is that if different make/model of car is then to be so converted, it too will have to be individually TA'd - unless its own TA certificate (CoC) carries the same type number as the first. I don't know whather, for example, whether all cars of the same make/model, but with different engines, or numbers of doors, have the same TA cert type number (I suspect probably not), but if they don't, there are going to have to be an awfully large number of rather expensive IVA procedures carried out. My impression is that on cost grounds alone this will make the A-frame prohibitively expensive compared to a standardised trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Added to which the car will probably have to re TA'd as it has now been modified and the original TA will no longer apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleddytanhouse Posted January 27, 2015 Author Share Posted January 27, 2015 Just to bring an end to this thorny issue which I commenced. Today I collected my almost new car and motorhome, both of which had been modified by LNB Leisure for an A frame and can confirm that "you get what you pay for" LNB are not the cheapest, but, they provide an A1 service and I am sure that what I have is what I was looking for. I have read all that has been said and am happy that whilst some A frame systems may be a little wanting in compliance or effectiveness, my system is the best I can get. Thanks again for all the advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 cleddytanhouse - 2015-01-27 9:42 PM Just to bring an end to this thorny issue which I commenced. Today I collected my almost new car and motorhome, both of which had been modified by LNB Leisure for an A frame and can confirm that "you get what you pay for" LNB are not the cheapest, but, they provide an A1 service and I am sure that what I have is what I was looking for. I have read all that has been said and am happy that whilst some A frame systems may be a little wanting in compliance or effectiveness, my system is the best I can get. Thanks again for all the advice Have you got any paperwork to confirm it meets 2007/46/EC ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleddytanhouse Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 Not sure what this is, but, I am happy that for the UK it is compliant and when I go abroad, I will not take the small car as It will not be essential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 cleddytanhouse - 2015-01-28 7:52 PM Not sure what this is, but, I am happy that for the UK it is compliant and when I go abroad, I will not take the small car as It will not be essential. All 'new' trailers must conform to 2007/46/EC, even in the UK, your car and a frame should have a CofC, either the manufacturers should hold one that covers all (unlikely for an a frame), or it should have been sent for testing and been issued with an individual CofC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffandjane Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I`ve a motorhome based on a 2.3 130bhp 2007 Ducato, and have been towing a Smart Fortwo for several years with the Smart Tow A frame system, combined with the vacuum braking system so the servo assistance is always working, so giving maximum braking efficiency. I`ve covered several thousand miles, the most of which have been in France with no problems. The A frame is light and easy to couple up, and when not in use the "eyes" screw out of the car so the only thing visible on the front of the car is the electrical connector. This system can be used for numerous cars now, not just Smart. As this is classed as a braked trailer, then the towing capacity of my van is 2500kg but the Smart only weighs 740kg, so well within capacity. I agree everybody will have their own opinions and preference, and this system isn`t cheap at c£1800, 4 years ago, but it works great for me, and a must when you are pitched up on a camp site for a couple of weeks and need to get the cold beers from the supermarket! Link for more info below. http://www.smart-tow.com/aframe.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 colin - 2015-01-28 8:03 PM cleddytanhouse - 2015-01-28 7:52 PM Not sure what this is, but, I am happy that for the UK it is compliant and when I go abroad, I will not take the small car as It will not be essential. All 'new' trailers must conform to 2007/46/EC, even in the UK, your car and a frame should have a CofC, either the manufacturers should hold one that covers all (unlikely for an a frame), or it should have been sent for testing and been issued with an individual CofC. My 'Towed' car is coming up for renewal, It's a 2010 Toyota Yaris, and I'm getting a new Yaris. The 'Car-a-Tow' dealers have said that they have already converted one of these, and that my present assembly can be swapped between the cars, so come April, thats whats happening. Spoke to the Toyota dealer, they say that only parts 'Modified' will not be covered by the warranty, (ie the brakes, but not the pads,WILL be covered). Also spoken to the Insurer (CC) informing them of the potential change of vehicle, AND that it is being towed behind a Motorhome on an A-Frame. No change, Still fully Comp, including when being towed.(confirmed by the supervisor). So, OK for 2015. Ray ps I don't tow in Europe either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleddytanhouse Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 The article in the latest MMM magazine about A frames, provides good information and confirms to me that my "all singing system" is fine for me. Only used it once so far and felt ok. Fuel consumption went down to 32mpg. From 33mpg. Still good I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I agree the MMM article is well written and balanced. As long as you are content to stay in UK then an A Frame seems unlikely to get you prosecuted for the foreseeable future. Abroad it's a different matter, but that's pointed out clearly and concisely too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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