SMART Timberless Construction

[Rayjsj]

Peter James - 2015-01-02 11:39 AM

 

rupert123 - 2015-01-02 11:24 AM

 

lennyhb - 2015-01-02 11:06 AM

 

Have to laugh, their engineer kept going on about the materials being impervious to water & if water gets in it won't be a problem, he seemed to expect Swift vans to leak and of course he knows they do.

Perhaps they need to spends some money on redesigning the body construction so they don't leak in the first place.

Maybe in 10 -20 years time when they have proved they don't have a long term damp problem it may be worth buying one in the meantime I think I will stay well clear, especially as they appear to expect them to leak.!

 

Also they are a bit behind the times, Hymer have been using their timber free PUAL System since 1978.

Yep 1978, who is behind the times Lenny?

 

I can't understand their obvious bias against British vans.

It seems they won't be happy until there is no British Industry left, and all we have to sustain us is rising house prices fueled by rising debt :-(

 

I totally agree, The whole of Motohome Media seems to be concerting to 'Bury' the UK motorhome Industry. With the MMM testing team, seemingly headed by Peter Vaughan now ? at the forefront.

I stopped buying 'Which motorhome' because of his 'slanted' opinions, (in favour of strictly 'family' orientated, Foreign manufactured motorhomes). WELL ,I have a message for him, MOST of new motorhomes are NOT bought by young families (although perhaps more should be), they are mainly bought by older retired couples,some with mobility problems, who want luxury for two.

For Us personally, I love the Double floors, that many foreign vans have, to allow us to go away more in the UK's harsh winters. BUT we cannot stand their 'Unconpromising' layouts, and refusal (in most cases) to adapt their vans to the UK 'handing' of the habitation door. Huge Fixed tables (urrgh) Beds perched 'up in the air' needing ladders to reach.(urrgh again) Kitchens NEVER designed to be cooked or washed up in. Lovely in many cases, but totally impractical, alas. Ray

[hallii]

My next M/H will be a Hymer. Any company that has a poor quality issues, whether or not it is British, will have to prove themselves and their product over a lot of years before I will buy from them.

 

Might I just set the record straight regarding Morgan? Very many of the cars they have made over the years are still on the road. They pass the same tests as any other car in the EU, and whilst they are not for long distance commuting ( I have owned one!) they are nice, fast and a bit different from the run of the mill cars. Also, they are just down the road to me and employ a lot of people :-D

 

H

[Brock]

H if you had my 18 month old Hymer, you might think twice about buying another. We will. Our van falls someway short of the expectations set by my 05 Hymer.

[Guest Peter James]

lennyhb - 2015-01-03 11:20 AM

if you watch the video properly you can see clearly they are only using basic polystyrene for the wall insulation

Well since you are obviously the only one who has watched the video properly perhaps you would be so kind as to point out to the rest of us where 'you can see clearly they are only using basic polystyrene for the wall insulation'

Even so, the point is the frame is unaffected by water, so if water does get in the structure retains most of its strength.

 

lennyhb - 2015-01-03 11:20 AM I paid less for my A Class Hymer than a mid range Swift costs.

What discount can be negotiated by an individual at a particular time and place is an unknown factor. So its normal to compare list prices, then see if the discount you can get alters your decision. Its not normal to compare the list price of one with the discounted price of another, unless you have an agenda and take your readers for fools.

 

But while we are on the subject of price I have noticed Hymer charge much more in the UK than they do across the channel. Just like Stella Artois advertised their beer as 'reassuringly expensive' in Britain, but charged the same price as the other beers across the channel because the rest of Europe wouldn't be daft enough to fall for it. The fact that Hymer take the British customer as mugs, trying to charge us about £20k extra on this side of the channel, would be a reason for me to avoid them. In any case I see no reason why they should charge more than Swift - do Hymer offer more than a 10 year body warranty?

[Guest Peter James]

AliB - 2015-01-02 10:29 AM

if you search around the site there are several videos on motorhome construction.

.

 

Thanks yes, just had a look and found several more interesting videos

[lennyhb]

Peter James - 2015-01-03 4:43 PM

 

But while we are on the subject of price I have noticed Hymer charge much more in the UK than they do across the channel. Just like Stella Artois advertised their beer as 'reassuringly expensive' in Britain, but charged the same price as the other beers across the channel because the rest of Europe wouldn't be daft enough to fall for it. The fact that Hymer take the British customer as mugs, trying to charge us about £20k extra on this side of the channel, would be a reason for me to avoid them. In any case I see no reason why they should charge more than Swift - do Hymer offer more than a 10 year body warranty?

 

It is greedy British dealers that account for most of the price hikes in the UK, I'm on my second Hymer and would never even consider buying one in the UK. Hymer do not need to offer a 10 year warranty as their vans don't fall apart, Swift have been forced into it by their reputation for building c**p.

I've had British caravans the last one had more water inside the walls than my garden pond.

[Brian Kirby]

Peter James - 2015-01-03 4:43 PM....................The fact that Hymer take the British customer as mugs, trying to charge us about £20k extra on this side of the channel, would be a reason for me to avoid them. ..................

Not sure where you got that figure, Peter, but it is not what the price lists show. Hymers list at about £4K more expensive in UK than in Germany (other countries vary a bit, but not that much). Most of the difference is due to "On the Road" costs (including an increased delivery cost), plus the fact that Hymer fix the exchange rate when they print new price lists, and protect themselves from £/€ fluctuations by taking a pessimistic view. The lion's share of the actual price difference between UK dealers and German dealers lies in the discounts the German dealers offer. How/why they are able to discount so much more deeply than UK dealers I don't know, but this seems broadly true for French and Belgian dealers, and is also true for a number of makes other than Hymer.

 

It would be good to see Swift gaining a pre-eminent reputation for quality in Europe. However, the emphasis on the synthetic framing members not being affected by water ingress caught my attention as well. There was an element of "it won't matter if it does leak" in the way the comment was phrased, rather than an emphasis on how leakage was now being avoided. It was interesting that the issue was raised by the design director, so it is clearly something Swift are aware of. The guarantee is to remedy leakage and its consequences. If leakage is held not to be a cause of damage, 10 years is not such an impressive warranty.

 

I gained the impression that the coachbuilt body is still largely assembled by screwing from outside, with sealant doing the waterproofing. It seemed to me that not that much had changed in reality. The problem with screwing into plastics is their tendency to stress deform, suggesting to me that the screws will tend to loosen over time.

 

The Hymer shell is adhesive bonded, with internal clips that pull the elements together, so that external penetrations are virtually eliminated. Also, the edge junctions between roof and walls are rounded and virtually flush, so that very little water is trapped on the roof, so creating less potential for leakage. It is very neat, and also a logical response that has been in production, being honed and developed, for a long time, so is well tried and tested. I understand Hymer adopted the technique when they acquired Neismann & Bischoff, who had invented it. Nothing is perfect, but it seems to have performed very well over a number of years.

 

If Swift can get their vans to the same standard of reliability over time none will be more pleased than me. But, I shan't be buying one for at least 5 years, until their new technique has had some time to prove itself.

[Brabander]

I have owned 5 different motorhomes, all purchased new.

The first one was a Lunar Roadstar. Good motorhome in terms of interior fit but VERY poorly engineered. Serious roof leak after 6 months. Biggest bugbear was the tiny fresh water tank (actually disgraceful for a family motorhome). Impossible to fully drain waste water tank without entirely removing the drain fittings.

 

The second one was a German van based motorhome. Superior engineering compared with the Lunar but not as well finished inside (but much cheaper to buy!)

 

The third one was a Swift Sundance. Best one so far. Very few problems, power control system a bit temperamental but interior finish excellent. Reliable, no leaks whatsoever.

The only problem was continuous white streaks across the windscreen, obviously coming from the GRP roof ie the gel coat finish might have been a problem.

 

When I replaced this motorhome we purchased a Bailey Approach which we only owned for around 6 months of which 4 were spent in the dealer's workshop as the roof bed was totally unreliable. In addition Bailey had fitted a Whale water pump system which is totally ridiculous for a motorhome unless you enjoy holding up other motorhomes when filling or draining your tanks. The electrical control system was also totally unreliable. We were only able to use the motorhome as a motorhome for a few weeks so we were unable to properly judge the it properly. Although, when we returned the 6 month old motorhome to the dealer with a defective roof bed and a non functional electrical system the dealer claimed that Bailey refused to accept return of same as they claimed that could fix the defects. As, by that time, the summer was almost over I left the motorhome with the dealer and told them I no longer wanted it.

After many threatening letters they refunded us the purchase price less around £10k!!

I therefore took a loss of £10k for a motorhome I used for 2 weeks!

 

My new motorhome is a Hobby Premium Van! By no means perfect but it has a bed we can use, the water tank fill and drain systems work very well (and quick),

So far the only annoyances are the water pressure (not great as it uses a submersible pump), I have fitted an additional in line pump and the high step into the motorhome (my wife is fairly small).

 

Your moans about the motorhome magazines being biased against UK built motorhomes are, in my opinion, not justified.

British is unfortunately NOT always best.

 

Just one last point. In a free market the buying public decides what motorhomes fill their needs best.

Even in European countries which have no domestic manufacturers such as the Netherlands people purchase French, German, Italian, Slovenian and Spanish motorhomes. I have never seen a UK built motorhome at a Dutch dealer! If I see one at a camp site on the European mainland I know that it will most likely have a UK number plate!

 

As a retired UK industrialist (engineering industry)I would love to see UK built motorhomes being successfully sold in mainland Europe!!

Hopefully that day will come in the not to distant future.

If the Slovenians and Spanish can succesfully sell motorhomes in Scandinavia, the Benelux and even Germany why can a UK manufacturer not do the same?

 

 

[Brabander]

I agree with everything you have written but the price differential issue is one that annoys many UK buyers.

It is possible that this can be partly explained by the additional costs associated with importation and the exchange rate risks .

However, I believe an other important reason is the fact the base vehicle manufacturers charge motohome manufacturers more for RHD. The additional charge for an RHD vehicle can be quite substantial (in the region of €1k). This has of course nothing to do with manufacturing costs but more to do with keeping vehicle prices in the UK high.

 

Dealer mark ups in the UK may also be higher but there is no clear evidence for that.

I could have purchased my last motorhome (Hobby) from a dealer in Germany for at least 25% less than the price I paid to the UK dealer. For that I got an oven (I would have preferred the drawers) and RHD (important for me).

Taking the motorhome back to a UK dealer for warranty issues is a lot easier than taking it to a German dealer. I speak fluent German , Dutch and French (and some English) ie language would not have been a barrier.

 

My suggestion is that if you want to purchase an imported motorhome check the equivalent European dealer prices and use that to negotiate a better price from the UK dealer.

 

NB Your contributions are always thoughtful and demonstrate good knowledge of the facts.

 

[Guest Joe90]

I guess if your manufacturing base is in a RHD country that it must take a good deal of investment to produce a LHD version with all the retooling and design that would take, yes I know "foreign" manufacturers do so with the cab bit, at no doubt quite a price premium to them, and that's why we are stuck with habitation doors that lead you straight on the the road if using in the UK, would the same idea work all over Europe, I somehow doubt it would make for a good sales pitch, here's our lovely British built and designed van, just watch you don't get splatted if you step out of the habitation door

 

I have a Rapido, and in many ways it's a good van, but just this year the sealant on both the Heki roof light, and one of the side windows gave up the ghost, with the resulting water ingress, and all the equipment as ever is the Dometic / Truma / gear we all get stuffed with.

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Reading this thread has at least explained why there's so many nearly new vans on the dealers forecourts ;-) ..........

 

 

[Guest Joe90]

pelmetman - 2015-01-03 7:39 PM

 

Reading this thread has at least explained why there's so many nearly new vans on the dealers forecourts ;-) ..........

 

 

Oh God, pass me a racer blade to slit my wrists, or better still yours.

 

Yet another thread you are determined to ruin you absolute plonker.

[Guest Joe90]

I guess if your manufacturing base is in a RHD country that it must take a good deal of investment to produce a LHD version with all the retooling and design that would take, yes I know "foreign" manufacturers do so with the cab bit, at no doubt quite a price premium to them, and that's why we are stuck with habitation doors that lead you straight on the the road if using in the UK, would the same idea work all over Europe, I somehow doubt it would make for a good sales pitch, here's our lovely British built and designed van, just watch you don't get splatted if you step out of the habitation door

 

I have a Rapido, and in many ways it's a good van, but just this year the sealant on both the Heki roof light, and one of the side windows gave up the ghost, with the resulting water ingress, and all the equipment as ever is the Dometic / Truma / gear we all get stuffed with.

[Guest pelmetman]

Joe90 - 2015-01-03 7:42 PM

 

pelmetman - 2015-01-03 7:39 PM

 

Reading this thread has at least explained why there's so many nearly new vans on the dealers forecourts ;-) ..........

 

 

Oh God, pass me a racer blade to slit my wrists, or better still yours.

 

Yet another thread you are determined to ruin you absolute plonker.

 

I see Santa brought you your annual grumpy pill prescription 1 foot/Mike/Joe/ etc (lol) .................but I guess if I had to look at the dull grey Irish sea all day I'd be hormonal too 8-) ..................

 

The med was looking quite delightfully blue today B-) ...............

 

 

[Guest Joe90]

Like I said

 

Yet another thread you are determined to ruin you absolute plonker.

[Guest pelmetman]

Joe90 - 2015-01-03 7:54 PM

 

Like I said

 

Yet another thread you are determined to ruin you absolute plonker.

 

Just making an observation Joe ;-) ..............take another tablet and calm down dude :-> ..............

 

 

[Guest Joe90]

pelmetman - 2015-01-03 7:55 PM

 

Joe90 - 2015-01-03 7:54 PM

 

Like I said

 

Yet another thread you are determined to ruin you absolute plonker.

 

Just making an observation Joe ;-) ..............take another tablet and calm down dude :-> ..............

 

 

Yes we all know your observations off by heart, buy a 25 year old knacker, now give it a rest.

[Rayjsj]

Personally I would not buy a European manufactured Motorhome, no matter how well it is put together, until they are 'bovvered' to reverse the Cad/cam drawing and put the habitation door on the 'correct' side for the UK. They certainly 'Used' to, Adria used to do it as a matter of course, I notice that the latest Benimar imports are 'UK handed'. UK manufacturers would never be allowed to sell in European markets without this necessary adjustment, to suit the market. We (the UK) should not allow it either, the amount of times I have seen people nearly getting 'Splatted' exiting in the layby, often dragging several dogs or children out, inches from speeding HGV's. Thats why the Europeans don't allow it, apart for vistors, who should know the rules of the road before exiting.

All of the 'Few' UK manufactured Motorhomes I have seen with Foreign Plates have had the 'Hab' door on their 'Correct' side.

Presumably Hymer would add several thousand Euro for a UK handed motorhome, on top of their Vastly inflated cost, less any 'Extra's' that we 'Brits' look on as normal fixtures and fittings. Ray

 

PS. a 25 year old Van is a mere 'youngster'. Joe, have you got a 'repeat' problem ??

 

It is VERY annoying.

[Guest Joe90]

To hopefully get back on topic posted after Ray making similar points, apologies

 

I guess if your manufacturing base is in a RHD country that it must take a good deal of investment to produce a LHD version with all the retooling and design that would take, yes I know "foreign" manufacturers do so with the cab bit, at no doubt quite a price premium to them, and that's why we are stuck with habitation doors that lead you straight on the the road if using in the UK, would the same idea work all over Europe, I somehow doubt it would make for a good sales pitch, here's our lovely British built and designed van, just watch you don't get splatted if you step out of the habitation door

 

I have a Rapido, and in many ways it's a good van, but just this year the sealant on both the Heki roof light, and one of the side windows gave up the ghost, with the resulting water ingress, and all the equipment as ever is the Dometic / Truma / gear we all get stuffed with.

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Joe90 - 2015-01-03 7:58 PM

 

pelmetman - 2015-01-03 7:55 PM

 

Joe90 - 2015-01-03 7:54 PM

 

Like I said

 

Yet another thread you are determined to ruin you absolute plonker.

 

Just making an observation Joe ;-) ..............take another tablet and calm down dude :-> ..............

 

 

Yes we all know your observations off by heart, buy a 25 year old knacker, now give it a rest.

 

Why?.............are new members not joining? ;-) .................

 

 

[Guest Joe90]

To hopefully get back on topic posted after Ray making similar points, apologies

 

I guess if your manufacturing base is in a RHD country that it must take a good deal of investment to produce a LHD version with all the retooling and design that would take, yes I know "foreign" manufacturers do so with the cab bit, at no doubt quite a price premium to them, and that's why we are stuck with habitation doors that lead you straight on the the road if using in the UK, would the same idea work all over Europe, I somehow doubt it would make for a good sales pitch, here's our lovely British built and designed van, just watch you don't get splatted if you step out of the habitation door

 

I have a Rapido, and in many ways it's a good van, but just this year the sealant on both the Heki roof light, and one of the side windows gave up the ghost, with the resulting water ingress, and all the equipment as ever is the Dometic / Truma / gear we all get stuffed with.

[Guest pelmetman]

Talk about reinventing the wheel *-) ..............they were using SMART timberless construction years ago ;-) ................

 

Its called fiberglass, and if I recall correctly its pretty dam good at keeping water out of boats :D .................

 

Just an observation BTW (lol) ...........

 

 

[Ian2000]

Ray, is the habitation door on the offside really such a problem ? We had a VW California for 7 years and never had a problem, and dont foresee any problems with our new Fiat based Westfalia which will also have the sliding door on the offside. If carrying additional passengers , and if absolutley necessary they could exit via the passenger door, as I suppose could the driver if they too were worried about passing traffic. I accept that the offside habitation door would probably be a non-starter for families travelling with children especially if they were using the van as their sole vehicle. However as you yourself stated earlier the majority of motorhomes are purchased by couples and for a couple I dont follow the logic that an offsided habitation door is a major problem, if on most other criteria the van meets their needs.

[Rayjsj]

And Autosleeper made some pretty good Monocoque motorhomes out of it, Most of them are still in use, if only they hadn't mounted them on Rubbish cheap Talbots/Fiats/Peugeot Chassis.

Best ones are the VW or Ford based one's, nothing new under the sun. Ray

[Rayjsj]

Ian2000 - 2015-01-03 8:47 PM

 

Ray, is the habitation door on the offside really such a problem ? We had a VW California for 7 years and never had a problem, and dont foresee any problems with our new Fiat based Westfalia which will also have the sliding door on the offside. If carrying additional passengers , and if absolutley necessary they could exit via the passenger door, as I suppose could the driver if they too were worried about passing traffic. I accept that the offside habitation door would probably be a non-starter for families travelling with children especially if they were using the van as their sole vehicle. However as you yourself stated earlier the majority of motorhomes are purchased by couples and for a couple I dont follow the logic that an offsided habitation door is a major problem, if on most other criteria the van meets their needs.

 

 

 

On PVC's I don't see it as a problem either, But on large Coachbuilts I think it is. it's a 'deal breaker' for me anyway. Just posing the 'Sceptics' view of Continental Motorhomes. 'Love the quality, hate the layouts'.

On a differant Tack, i had a look at a VW Topaz the other day, it was at Brownhills, (hiss, boo) the sliding door closed electrically, VERY quietly.... as opposed to most PVC's, why can't they ALL do that ?

Such a good idea, I hate being next to a PVC with all the sliding and double Slamming.

Ray