SMART Timberless Construction

[lennyhb]

Rayjsj - 2015-01-03 8:09 PM

 

Personally I would not buy a European manufactured Motorhome, no matter how well it is put together, until they are 'bovvered' to reverse the Cad/cam drawing and put the habitation door on the 'correct' side for the UK. They certainly 'Used' to, Adria used to do it as a matter of course, I notice that the latest Benimar imports are 'UK handed'. UK manufacturers would never be allowed to sell in European markets without this necessary adjustment, to suit the market. We (the UK) should not allow it either, the amount of times I have seen people nearly getting 'Splatted' exiting in the layby, often dragging several dogs or children out, inches from speeding HGV's. Thats why the Europeans don't allow it, apart for vistors, who should know the rules of the road before exiting.

All of the 'Few' UK manufactured Motorhomes I have seen with Foreign Plates have had the 'Hab' door on their 'Correct' side.

Presumably Hymer would add several thousand Euro for a UK handed motorhome, on top of their Vastly inflated cost, less any 'Extra's' that we 'Brits' look on as normal fixtures and fittings. Ray

 

PS. a 25 year old Van is a mere 'youngster'. Joe, have you got a 'repeat' problem ??

 

It is VERY annoying.

 

Some of us actually prefer the habitation door on the RHS I wouldn't buy a van with it on the LHS, only 15% of my annual use is in the UK & most of my Motorhoming friends it's a similar story.

If you buy wisely Hymers don't have inflated prices and a lot of the safety features that are extras on UK vans are standard, I like pay for safety & good engineering rather than extras I don't want & poor build quality.

Hymers come with a pan European warranty, any problems and you can take into any European dealer to get fixed.

So if you have a serious problem with your Swift in Spain or Italy do you just take it to the nearest Swift dealer?

[Rayjsj]

lennyhb - 2015-01-03 9:18 PM

 

Rayjsj - 2015-01-03 8:09 PM

 

Personally I would not buy a European manufactured Motorhome, no matter how well it is put together, until they are 'bovvered' to reverse the Cad/cam drawing and put the habitation door on the 'correct' side for the UK. They certainly 'Used' to, Adria used to do it as a matter of course, I notice that the latest Benimar imports are 'UK handed'. UK manufacturers would never be allowed to sell in European markets without this necessary adjustment, to suit the market. We (the UK) should not allow it either, the amount of times I have seen people nearly getting 'Splatted' exiting in the layby, often dragging several dogs or children out, inches from speeding HGV's. Thats why the Europeans don't allow it, apart for vistors, who should know the rules of the road before exiting.

All of the 'Few' UK manufactured Motorhomes I have seen with Foreign Plates have had the 'Hab' door on their 'Correct' side.

Presumably Hymer would add several thousand Euro for a UK handed motorhome, on top of their Vastly inflated cost, less any 'Extra's' that we 'Brits' look on as normal fixtures and fittings. Ray

 

PS. a 25 year old Van is a mere 'youngster'. Joe, have you got a 'repeat' problem ??

 

It is VERY annoying.

 

Some of us actually prefer the habitation door on the RHS I wouldn't buy a van with it on the LHS, only 15% of my annual use is in the UK & most of my Motorhoming friends it's a similar story.

If you buy wisely Hymers don't have inflated prices and a lot of the safety features that are extras on UK vans are standard, I like pay for safety & good engineering rather than extras I don't want & poor build quality.

Hymers come with a pan European warranty, any problems and you can take into any European dealer to get fixed.

So if you have a serious problem with your Swift in Spain or Italy do you just take it to the nearest Swift dealer?

 

Good for you Lenny, and your friends,

I do almost all of my touring in the UK and the Scottish Islands,and a LHS habitation door is essential for me, I agree about dealerships, even in the UK it usually means a long drive to get even small defects fixed, and I admire Hymer for ditching Brownhills and setting up a proper network of UK dealers. Now, if they would only adapt their motorhomes for UK useage, I might be tempted to buy one .

If the layout was right for us.

Ray

[Guest Peter James]

Peter James - 2015-01-03 4:43 PM

do Hymer offer more than a 10 year body warranty?

 

 

lennyhb - 2015-01-03 5:02 PM

..................(waffle removed)........

Hymer do not need to offer a 10 year warranty .............

 

I'll take that as a 'NO' then shall I ;-)

[Poppy]

Can't comment on Smart construction as I have no knowledge at all.For what its worth we have had 5 caravans and are now on our 3rd motorhome.Of the 5 caravans 4 were British.We had damp round the windows of the Lunar which was put right under warranty and no further problems with it.The other 4 were problem free.The 3 motorhomes Hymer,Hobby and now a Laika.All have been problem free.I think buy what you like and can afford and enjoy.Try not to worry too much.Forums can be good but few people write to forums when they are very happy with what they have.People end to write when there is a problem and then you feel that every unit is a ticking time bomb.Mostly they are not.

[mgnbuk]

 

" Some of us actually prefer the habitation door on the RHS I wouldn't buy a van with it on the LHS "

 

Likewise. Though not bothered from a "using the van" point of view, a UK nearside hab door would be inacessible when the van is parked on the drive, as the nearside is very close to next door's wall. Parking the van the other way round would be awkward. Both our last CI & current Roller Team have UK offside hab doors, though both manufacturers appear to have offer "mirror imaged" layouts giving a UK NS door in the past. To each their own.

 

I hope that Swift can get their build quality act together - I did have a look on their stand at the NEC last year specifically to see more details of their "new" construction method, but they don't seem very keen to go into the "nuts & bolts" of the new arrangement as I couldn't find any details on the stand. From the descriptions the "new" build arrangement sounds similar to the Roller Team Extreme Protection System used in our T-Line 670, but while RT seem keen to expand on how their system works (and dealers have demonstration wall sections on display), Swift seem a bit coy ?

[Guest Peter James]

mgnbuk - 2015-01-04 3:40 PM

I hope that Swift can get their build quality act together - I did have a look on their stand at the NEC last year specifically to see more details of their "new" construction method, but they don't seem very keen to go into the "nuts & bolts" of the new arrangement as I couldn't find any details on the stand. From the descriptions the "new" build arrangement sounds similar to the Roller Team Extreme Protection System used in our T-Line 670, but while RT seem keen to expand on how their system works (and dealers have demonstration wall sections on display), Swift seem a bit coy ?

 

Swift have applied for patents so I guess they can't say too much?

They appear to sell the most in Britain, so statistically will get the most complaints.

But, judging by the 10 year warranty they are offering (the best I have heard of), presumably they must be pretty confident about it?

[Rayjsj]

Peter James - 2015-01-04 4:05 PM

 

mgnbuk - 2015-01-04 3:40 PM

I hope that Swift can get their build quality act together - I did have a look on their stand at the NEC last year specifically to see more details of their "new" construction method, but they don't seem very keen to go into the "nuts & bolts" of the new arrangement as I couldn't find any details on the stand. From the descriptions the "new" build arrangement sounds similar to the Roller Team Extreme Protection System used in our T-Line 670, but while RT seem keen to expand on how their system works (and dealers have demonstration wall sections on display), Swift seem a bit coy ?

 

Swift have applied for patents so I guess they can't say too much?

They appear to sell the most in Britain, so statistically will get the most complaints.

But, judging by the 10 year warranty they are offering (the best I have heard of), presumably they must be pretty confident about it?

 

Autotrail also give you a 10 year Water ingress warranty, can't understand why Bailey withdrew theirs ?

as ALL vans have a potential to leak, I wouldn't now buy a new van that Didn't have a 'Free' 10 year water ingress warranty. None of them 'need it' until they actually leak !

Ray

[Steve928]

Rayjsj - 2015-01-04 4:49 PM

 

 

Autotrail also give you a 10 year Water ingress warranty, can't understand why Bailey withdrew theirs ?

as ALL vans have a potential to leak, I wouldn't now buy a new van that Didn't have a 'Free' 10 year water ingress warranty. None of them 'need it' until they actually leak !

Ray

 

Are you sure of your facts re the 10 year AT waranty, Ray?

My reading of their warranty details gives a 5 year full warranty plus a further 5 years which covers only the repair of permanent joint seals and is far from free as the customer has to make a contribution which is up to 60% by the 10th. year.

 

Bailey dropped their full 10 year warranty on financial grounds: low selling price for high specification (Alko, Alde) is their USP. The customer can purchase additional years if they wish. Bear in mind that on broadly comparable models Bailey undercut Autotrail by around £10,000 and are currently outselling AT by a factor of 3:1

 

Time will tell if Swift continue to offer 10 years, or if like Bailey it will be cut once (if) their new construction method achieves a substantial market share.

[Colin Leake]

Problem is it's something else to go wrong. We stayed near a couple with a Merc based RS PVC with an electric door that had gone wrong. Fortunately with the door closed so they could still use it via the cab doors. Can't help wondering what would have happened if it had failed open. One would expect there to,have been a manual override.

[Guest Peter James]

 

The 'about £20k extra' I referred to is what I have heard people claim they saved by buying a new Hymer abroad instead of in England.

 

Brian Kirby - 2015-01-03 5:59 PM

 

The guarantee is to remedy leakage and its consequences. If leakage is held not to be a cause of damage,.

 

Whats the difference between 'consequences' and 'damage' (?)

[Guest Joe90]

I guess a consequence of leakage could be getting your socks wet, doubt that it would damage them. ;-) so you wouldn't be able to claim for a new pair.

[Guest Peter James]

Joe90 - 2015-01-04 7:59 PM

 

I guess a consequence of leakage could be getting your socks wet, doubt that it would damage them. ;-) so you wouldn't be able to claim for a new pair.

 

This topic is discussed on another thread ;-) http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/General-Chat/Chatterbox/Senility-on-the-Forum/36473/

[Brian Kirby]

Peter James - 2015-01-04 6:06 PM

 

 

The 'about £20k extra' I referred to is what I have heard people claim they saved by buying a new Hymer abroad instead of in England.

 

Brian Kirby - 2015-01-03 5:59 PM

 

The guarantee is to remedy leakage and its consequences. If leakage is held not to be a cause of damage,.

 

Whats the difference between 'consequences' and 'damage' (?)

I'm sure there is some comparison of apples with oranges in the more extreme claims for savings when buying abroad.

 

For our van the difference in list price between UK and Germany was £4,000 in favour of Germany. I didn't self-import, but bought through Bundesvan, who ordered it, went and got it, and delivered it to our house taxed and registered. The actual saving doing that was £8,400. I advised the UK Hymer dealer with whom I had been discussing buying of the prices I was being quoted by two UK importers (Bundesvan as above, and Edge Hill motorhomes, whose prices were very close indeed), and they politely withdrew saying they couldn't get close. So, I've got the van I wanted (made to my preferences, not from someone's forecourt stock), at a price the nearest UK Hymer dealer couldn't match. I never found out what price they would have accepted, as they never came back with a counter offer, so they presumably judged it not worthwhile trying. Very simply put, that leaves about £8K in my piggy bank rather than someone else's. It'll buy a lot of fuel!

 

Not sure what you are getting at about leakage, damage, and consequences, Peter. The damage in question would presumably be a consequence of leakage. But, as the claim is that leakage will not cause damage to the wall structure, what would there be to repair? It just seems contradictory to me. For example, leak causes damp wall and wet carpets, but carpets not actually damaged. What then? Re-seal the leak to prevent the carpets getting wet again, but leave the damp wall and carpets to dry out in their own (i.e. the owner's) time, as they aren't damaged? Or, re-seal the leak and dry both wall and carpets thoroughly and then return to owner? I'm just unclear how they would interpret their warranty in the event of a leak, that's all. They just seem to accept the prospect of leakage damage rather than focusing on preventing the leak. Presentationally, it is a confusing (to me!) pitch. No more, no less.

[Guest Had Enough]

lennyhb - 2015-01-03 5:02 PM

 

It is greedy British dealers that account for most of the price hikes in the UK, I'm on my second Hymer and would never even consider buying one in the UK.

 

Then I'm sure that you can tell us how much profit UK dealers make as opposed to German dealers? You do seem to know an awful lot about the finances of motorhome dealers.

 

And if selling motorhomes in the UK is such a gold mine, how do you account for the numerous business failures in this trade and the fact the the UK has a very small number of dealers compared to Germany?

 

If German dealers seek to make as much profit as possible, which is what every business does, are they also to be classified as 'greedy'? What constitutes 'greed' in your book?

 

You refuse to pay tolls, you refuse to pay for campsites and, when you buy a motorhome, you go to great lengths to spend as little as possible. Are you greedy then, or are you being what you'd consider to be sensible?

 

I have personal experience of unthinking people such as you, who automatically jump to the wrong conclusion and blame the end seller. In my trade I'm often accused of being greedy because someone has seen a product in the USA for instance at a lower price. I'm happy to show them my tiny margin, which will usually be under 10% on a high end product and often as low as 5%.

 

But these people have no idea of the different operating costs in Britain as compared to the US. They have no idea of the massive difference in rental prices for retail shops and such things as National Insurance, which we have to pay on top of our wages, in fact, they've really no idea about anything other than their own unthinking and idiotic gut reaction, a bit like yours really.

 

I can assure you, that if retailing motorhomes was such an easy and profitable experience, there'd be a large dealer in every town, but the truth is, it isn't. Compared to Germany Britain's motorhome market is tiny.

 

Take Hymer. They must hate making RHD motorhomes. They have production lines for models that can be sold all over Europe, without modification. But then they have to make a very small number in RHD, with different plugs and different lights. I wonder why they bother sometimes.

 

The German market is enormous compared to Britain and German dealers try just as hard as UK dealers to make as much money as possible, that's what all businesses do. I suppose that you think that they are charitable organisations, whose only aim is to supply motorhomes to people like you as a service?

 

So, I eagerly await your information on the cost price of UK motorhomes and the dealer mark-up and how that compares with dealers in other countries.

 

 

 

[Guest Had Enough]

Brian Kirby - 2015-01-05 12:28 PM

 

So, I've got the van I wanted (made to my preferences, not from someone's forecourt stock), at a price the nearest UK Hymer dealer couldn't match. I never found out what price they would have accepted, as they never came back with a counter offer, so they presumably judged it not worthwhile trying.

 

So presumably they haven't got an enormous profit margin, as any sensible business would have taken a lower price rather than lose the sale altogether, especially if that would still have left them with a reasonable surplus?

[lennyhb]

Brian Kirby - 2015-01-05 12:28 PM

 

Peter James - 2015-01-04 6:06 PM

 

 

The 'about £20k extra' I referred to is what I have heard people claim they saved by buying a new Hymer abroad instead of in England.

 

Brian Kirby - 2015-01-03 5:59 PM

 

The guarantee is to remedy leakage and its consequences. If leakage is held not to be a cause of damage,.

 

Whats the difference between 'consequences' and 'damage' (?)

I'm sure there is some comparison of apples with oranges in the more extreme claims for savings when buying abroad.

 

For our van the difference in list price between UK and Germany was £4,000 in favour of Germany. I didn't self-import, but bought through Bundesvan, who ordered it, went and got it, and delivered it to our house taxed and registered. The actual saving doing that was £8,400. I advised the UK Hymer dealer with whom I had been discussing buying of the prices I was being quoted by two UK importers (Bundesvan as above, and Edge Hill motorhomes, whose prices were very close indeed), and they politely withdrew saying they couldn't get close. So, I've got the van I wanted (made to my preferences, not from someone's forecourt stock), at a price the nearest UK Hymer dealer couldn't match. I never found out what price they would have accepted, as they never came back with a counter offer, so they presumably judged it not worthwhile trying. Very simply put, that leaves about £8K in my piggy bank rather than someone else's. It'll buy a lot of fuel!

.

 

If you take the self import route which is easy but does involve a bit more work & a little bit more stressful (a fact of life dealing with DVLA) you can save a further £3000 and like Brian I got a van to my specification, I could have had RHD if I had wanted it. My last van I imported myself as well that was RHD & came with UK spec (UK mains sockets etc).

[Guest Peter James]

Rayjsj - 2015-01-03 9:41 PM

I admire Hymer for ditching Brownhills

Both parties said it was an amicable arrangement, that is as much as I know.

I thought perhaps Brownhills were no longer happy to sell a van at a much higher price than it costs on the other side of the English channel.

But perhaps you know different?

[Rayjsj]

Hymer,

Just a thought, how much extra to get one built with the Interior 'UK handed' ie hab.door on the UK nearside ? would they consider such a thing ? and if so, how much. (no a wind up) genuine enquiry.

Ray

[Guest Peter James]

Had Enough - 2015-01-05 12:57 PM

So presumably they haven't got an enormous profit margin, as any sensible business would have taken a lower price rather than lose the sale altogether, especially if that would still have left them with a reasonable surplus?

 

A sensible post 8-) Was it a mistake 8-)

[Rayjsj]

Peter James - 2015-01-05 1:31 PM

 

Rayjsj - 2015-01-03 9:41 PM

I admire Hymer for ditching Brownhills

Both parties said it was an amicable arrangement, that is as much as I know.

I thought perhaps Brownhills were no longer happy to sell a van at a much higher price than it costs on the other side of the English channel.

But perhaps you know different?

 

All I know of it was, I bought a Van from Brownhills Swindon, and within 6 months they had closed the Branch, along with all the others except for Newark. Leaving Customers in the lurch, with unreasonable distances to travel. No apologies or explanations. Was quite 'pro' Brownhills until then. Wouldn't now 'touch them with a bargepole' . Although I had good treatment at Swindon.

 

I feel the same about Banks, if my present Bank was to close my local branch, I would close my account immediatley. Would they care ? Did Brownhill's care ? probably not , but if enough disgruntled customers complain loudly enough...and tell others, customer consideration MIGHT change.

Ray

[Guest Peter James]

Rayjsj - 2015-01-05 1:41 PM

All I know of it was, I bought a Van from Brownhills Swindon, and within 6 months they had closed the Branch, along with all the others except for Newark. Leaving Customers in the lurch, with unreasonable distances to travel. No apologies or explanations. Was quite 'pro' Brownhills until then. Wouldn't now 'touch them with a bargepole' . Although I had good treatment at Swindon. Ray

Well I wouldn't hold that against them. As Brian pointed out, sometimes the most customer friendly dealers make the least profit, which leads to closing branches. And now they only have one branch, perhaps they decided to concentrate on the more popular makes?

[Rayjsj]

Peter James - 2015-01-05 1:52 PM

 

Rayjsj - 2015-01-05 1:41 PM

All I know of it was, I bought a Van from Brownhills Swindon, and within 6 months they had closed the Branch, along with all the others except for Newark. Leaving Customers in the lurch, with unreasonable distances to travel. No apologies or explanations. Was quite 'pro' Brownhills until then. Wouldn't now 'touch them with a bargepole' . Although I had good treatment at Swindon. Ray

Well I wouldn't hold that against them. As Brian pointed out, sometimes the most customer friendly dealers make the least profit, which leads to closing branches. And now they only have one branch, perhaps they decided to concentrate on the most popular makes.

 

No, But I do. (hold it against them).

[Guest Had Enough]

Rayjsj - 2015-01-05 1:41 PM

 

All I know of it was, I bought a Van from Brownhills Swindon, and within 6 months they had closed the Branch, along with all the others except for Newark. Leaving Customers in the lurch, with unreasonable distances to travel. No apologies or explanations. Was quite 'pro' Brownhills until then. Wouldn't now 'touch them with a bargepole' . Although I had good treatment at Swindon.

 

I feel the same about Banks, if my present Bank was to close my local branch, I would close my account immediatley. Would they care ? Did Brownhill's care ? probably not , but if enough disgruntled customers complain loudly enough...and tell others, customer consideration MIGHT change.

Ray

 

So a business has a branch that is losing money. What do you expect them to do? If things are looking bad wouldn't you expect them to try to keep selling as much as possible in the hope of surviving and everyone keeping their jobs?

 

Perhaps the salesmen should have told customers that things were tough and it may be in their best interests not to buy from Brownhills, just in case they folded? Mmm, that would work!

 

And do you really think that if lots of disgruntled customers complained that Brownhills would have said: "Yes, sorry chaps, although we're losing a fortune we'll keep the business going just so you can get your 'van serviced easily."

 

But what would you do in similar circumstances? You have a business that's losing money so do you just carry on regardless and lose even more. Do you risk losing everything, including your house possibly just in case some customers become disgruntled?

 

Apart from which I'm pretty sure that they had absolutely no choice in the matter. They'd have had bank loans that needed servicing, and as soon as they were unable to do that the banks would force the issue.

 

Customers are important, but if I'd a branch that was losing money I'd shut it tomorrow. I'd do that to protect the rest of the firm and the rest of my staff. Perhaps you think that I should carry on trading so as not to have any disgruntled customers, even though that risks the whole operation going down eventually?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lennyhb]

Rayjsj - 2015-01-05 1:33 PM

 

Hymer,

Just a thought, how much extra to get one built with the Interior 'UK handed' ie hab.door on the UK nearside ? would they consider such a thing ? and if so, how much. (no a wind up) genuine enquiry.

Ray

 

The only way to get them even to remotely consider it would be if all the UK dealers got together and put large stock orders even then I would have my doubts.

The UK is such a small market for Motorhomes compared to main land Europe last figures show 5,800 sold in the UK, Germany over 20,000 France around 17,000 even a tiny country like Belgium sold 3000.

UK dealers carry minimal stock Continental dealers tend to order in much higher quantities just for stock. Our last van a special edition our Belgium dealer ordered 15 of them for stock (ours was a factory order), can you see a UK dealer doing that.

[Guest Had Enough]

lennyhb - 2015-01-05 3:00 PM

 

Rayjsj - 2015-01-05 1:33 PM

 

Hymer,

Just a thought, how much extra to get one built with the Interior 'UK handed' ie hab.door on the UK nearside ? would they consider such a thing ? and if so, how much. (no a wind up) genuine enquiry.

Ray

 

The only way to get them even to remotely consider it would be if all the UK dealers got together and put large stock orders even then I would have my doubts.

The UK is such a small market for Motorhomes compared to main land Europe last figures show 5,800 sold in the UK, Germany over 20,000 France around 17,000 even a tiny country like Belgium sold 3000.

UK dealers carry minimal stock Continental dealers tend to order in much higher quantities just for stock. Our last van a special edition our Belgium dealer ordered 15 of them for stock (ours was a factory order), can you see a UK dealer doing that.

 

So there you have it. Germany has Belgium, France, The Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland and all the other EU countries on its doorstep. a total LHD motorhome market that could well be twenty times larger than the UK's tiny number. And how many of that UK 5000 is for top end models such as Hymer?

 

But of course higher prices in Britain are solely down to greedy dealers! Oh dear! *-)

 

And when you're in business your stock holding must relate to your potential turnover.