SMART Timberless Construction

[Brian Kirby]

Had Enough - 2015-01-05 12:57 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2015-01-05 12:28 PM

 

So, I've got the van I wanted (made to my preferences, not from someone's forecourt stock), at a price the nearest UK Hymer dealer couldn't match. I never found out what price they would have accepted, as they never came back with a counter offer, so they presumably judged it not worthwhile trying.

 

So presumably they haven't got an enormous profit margin, as any sensible business would have taken a lower price rather than lose the sale altogether, especially if that would still have left them with a reasonable surplus?

Somewhat OT, but you'd think so, wouldn't you? However, it is odd. Germany is not a notably low cost country, and they do trade on quality. After all, Hymers are not the cheapest vans on the market, but they, and any number of others, are considerably cheaper in Euroland than they are here. We seem more inclined to try to sell on price in this country, than on quality. But, notwithstanding that, our products don't actually cost that much less than anyone else's.

 

You may remember that time some years back when people were buying cars abroad, because they were considerably less costly than in UK? The upshot was that UK prices fell, in the wake of which a number of UK manufacturers disappeared or were bought by European manufacturers. The broad conclusion was that the UK manufacturers had been unable to make money from the cars they made in UK, whereas continental manufacturers could, and could even make money exporting them back to Europe. So, something mitigated against UK owned companies making profits from car manufacture, that didn't mitigate against european owned companies doing the same, in the same plants, with the same labour pool, and making profits. Some of that was due to the likes of Red Robbo, but a lot was low investment and the consequent inefficient and unreliable production process.

 

The ghost of that same problem still seems to dog our manufacturing. Not all, not everywhere, but in sufficient quantity to have kept our manufacturing sector smaller than it should, ideally, be. My question was then, and remains, why is that? What is it that adds to UK companies' production costs that others don't suffer, even when manufacturing in UK. I find that very strange.

[Rayjsj]

Had Enough - 2015-01-05 2:10 PM

 

Rayjsj - 2015-01-05 1:41 PM

 

All I know of it was, I bought a Van from Brownhills Swindon, and within 6 months they had closed the Branch, along with all the others except for Newark. Leaving Customers in the lurch, with unreasonable distances to travel. No apologies or explanations. Was quite 'pro' Brownhills until then. Wouldn't now 'touch them with a bargepole' . Although I had good treatment at Swindon.

 

I feel the same about Banks, if my present Bank was to close my local branch, I would close my account immediatley. Would they care ? Did Brownhill's care ? probably not , but if enough disgruntled customers complain loudly enough...and tell others, customer consideration MIGHT change.

Ray

 

So a business has a branch that is losing money. What do you expect them to do? If things are looking bad wouldn't you expect them to try to keep selling as much as possible in the hope of surviving and everyone keeping their jobs?

 

Perhaps the salesmen should have told customers that things were tough and it may be in their best interests not to buy from Brownhills, just in case they folded? Mmm, that would work!

 

And do you really think that if lots of disgruntled customers complained that Brownhills would have said: "Yes, sorry chaps, although we're losing a fortune we'll keep the business going just so you can get your 'van serviced easily."

 

But what would you do in similar circumstances? You have a business that's losing money so do you just carry on regardless and lose even more. Do you risk losing everything, including your house possibly just in case some customers become disgruntled?

 

Apart from which I'm pretty sure that they had absolutely no choice in the matter. They'd have had bank loans that needed servicing, and as soon as they were unable to do that the banks would force the issue.

 

Customers are important, but if I'd a branch that was losing money I'd shut it tomorrow. I'd do that to protect the rest of the firm and the rest of my staff. Perhaps you think that I should carry on trading so as not to have any disgruntled customers, even though that risks the whole operation going down eventually?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No one even bothered to explain any change, the first I knew was when I phoned and got a Disconnected tone. No Apology, No explanation. They didn't give a Shix ! so now, I consider them Shix.! simple philosophy ! And with Banks, they are NOT going bust (at least, not now they are not ! since we bailed them out). No, they are shutting Branches because, of their 'New busness model' in plain English.... THEY don't give a Shix ! about their customers. Hope they all go 'tits up' with NO bail out.

Ray

 

I get pleasure out of telling Brownhills staff what I think of their Outfit, when they ring me up as a 'Past Customer', I say I might consider a look, if they Bring the van halfway to where i live, somewhere around Swindon, might do it. :D :D

[Guest Peter James]

Brian Kirby - 2015-01-05 6:38 PM

What is it that adds to UK companies' production costs that others don't suffer, even when manufacturing in UK.

British management - nepotism, old boy network, Freemasons, short termism - management by greed like Tesco fiddling the accounts to bring profits forward and increase bonuses, and the sharpest minds being drawn into more lucrative occupations like the city or public sector.

Its a bit much to blame Red Robbo when he was hung out to dry by the workforce, and sacked 17 years before Rover was bled dry by its management.

[Guest Peter James]

Rayjsj - 2015-01-05 8:26 PM

No one even bothered to explain any change, the first I knew was when I phoned and got a Disconnected tone. No Apology, No explanation. They didn't give a Shix !

 

I guess they had lost their jobs, got mortgages to pay etc. So your having to take your van somewhere else for a service might not have been their over riding concern *-)

At least you didn't get a salesman from Birtley wanting you to pay for your new van up front and in full at Birtley so he got the commission instead of Newark who would be supplying the van and doing the handover. (lol)

And before you blame Brownhills for that as well remember that salesman was (is?) working for Marquis.

[Ian2000]

Brian, I know this has moved a bit off topic, but do you mind telling me what percentage you actually saved on yor van by buying through Bundesvan ?. We ordered a new RHD Westfalia Amundsen at the October show (due in April - cant wait !), but I also looked at buying LHD and considered the Bundesvan route as I wasnt confident in self-importing (sorry Judge) . There were a few 2015 models at German dealers, but none were that heavily discounted at that time, and although they would have been maybe £5000 cheaper than the deal I was able to get at the show, the Bundesvan fee/expenses would have taken a fair chunk out of that giving a net saving of maybe £2500 max (which would be 5.5%) and in the end I decided to buy RHD in the UK. Are the savings generally better on larger vans, especially I assume when dealers have a number in stock and want to move them on ?

[Brian Kirby]

In truth, it is vey difficult to say. The starting point would be to compare list prices, in € (converted to £ at the current exchange rate) and £ (per the manufacturer's, not the dealer's, price lists), for the specification you want. For our Hymer, that worked out a bit under 6%.

 

It is easy to find out what the cost would be via Bundesvan, for example, just by asking. Bundesvan will negotiate the best price they can with a German dealer, and you will get an answer in £, based on that (undisclosed) price, converted at the exchange rate Bundesvan would get on the day.

 

Exchange rates fluctuate, and you would normally be given the option to fix the rate when placing your order, when Bundesvan are required to pay the German dealer, or at an intermediate date. So, you have a choice about when the currency is bought, and at what rate. Bundesvan's price will include import costs, any necessary changes to lighting and speedometer, registration in UK, and delivery to you. You pay everything in £, usually an initial 10% deposit, with the balance due in full on delivery.

 

But, in our case, Bundesvan got an awning, alarm, and radio fitted in UK before delivering to us. Those could have been factory-fit, or dealer-fit in Germany, but were fitted in UK because they were cheaper that way, and I got more control over what was fitted.

 

Also, as above, I have no figure for what the same van, to the same spec, would actually have cost from our nearest UK Hymer dealer, since he merely conceded he couldn't match the import price or, I guess, get close enough to counter-offer.

 

The final cost, for a LHD 150PS Comfortmatic Hymer 585, with no drop down bed at the front, was just under 14% lower than buying at the UK list price. But, I also got a better price for our previous van (LHD 2007 Hobby Van), by selling it through Bundesvan than I was offered by other dealers including the Hymer dealer. So, added incentive there!

 

This is our third import, and the second via Bundesvan. The first (a Burstner) I self-imported in 2005 from Calais, at an approximate saving of 10% compared to UK dealer prices, but it was a variant not actually available in UK. The second, the Hobby, in 2007, showed about the same percentage saving, and was obtained in Germany through Bundesvan in July 2007, at a time when no UK dealer could obtain one (or quote prices) until the following spring, because all available RHD Transit chassis had been used.

 

As you will see, the cash saving is a useful sum against the price of a new van, but it is dependent on relative exchange rates, on how much the dealers are discounting at the time, on what make and model you select, and on whether you want specific factory-fit only options to be included. If you buy a van that is already in stock, with only dealer-fit options (often cheaper in UK), you should get an even better price. The greatest difficulty is knowing what the same van would actually have cost if bought in UK, and also whether a UK dealer will undertake any warranty work on the import. To their great credit, Premier Motorhomes of Chichester have been happy to do this on a couple of items while doing the required annual water ingress check.

[Guest Peter James]

Brian Kirby - 2015-01-05 12:28 PM

 

(Swift) seem to accept the prospect of leakage damage rather than focusing on preventing the leak. Presentationally, it is a confusing (to me!) pitch. No more, no less.

There is another video on there where the same Design Director said they worked with Sika to develop new sealants for the new construction, And they still seal the screws, even though they go into the waterproof frame to a pre determined depth. Presumably to stop water ingress from between the panel and the frame?

[lennyhb]

Had Enough - 2015-01-05 12:52 PM

 

You refuse to pay tolls, you refuse to pay for campsites and, when you buy a motorhome, you go to great lengths to spend as little as possible. Are you greedy then, or are you being what you'd consider to be sensible?

 

Well there you go again with your bulls**t & lies. You do not appear to be able read posts without changing the meaning of them to what you want to read, you do not appear to understand the words "DO NOT LIKE".

When have I ever refused to pay a toll, please let me know. I prefer to use N & D roads in France a much more pleasant experience than bombing down a motorway, get to see all the towns & villages on route, much nicer to spend a few days ambling through France.

 

When will you get into your thick head I DO NOT LIKE SITES, done enough in the past with a caravan & yes I've paid up to £40 a night in Italy, In the Motorhome much prefer to wild or use Aries they suit our needs.

 

You are so self opinionated you think everyone should do things the way you do,

 

Take Hymer. They must hate making RHD motorhomes. They have production lines for models that can be sold all over Europe, without modification. But then they have to make a very small number in RHD, with different plugs and different lights. I wonder why they bother sometimes.

 

No problem at all getting a RHD Hymer our last one was brought in Belgium and it was RHD.

 

I suppose that you think that they are charitable organisations, whose only aim is to supply motorhomes to people like you as a service?

 

A bit rich coming from someone who has just brought a Hymer brought in through the back door depriving the poor British franchise dealer of his profit, a case of "do as I say not as I do".

 

I had thought you had mellowed a bit having had a few reasonable discussions on other threads, too much to hope for, you appear to have reverted bad to that nasty man intent on disrupting threads.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Had Enough]

lennyhb - 2015-01-06 5:42 PM

 

When have I ever refused to pay a toll, please let me know. I prefer to use N & D roads in France a much more pleasant experience than bombing down a motorway, get to see all the towns & villages on route, much nicer to spend a few days ambling through France.

 

 

Perhaps it was this post from you on October 5th (the search facility is a wonderful thing)!

 

"Never used a toll road in the 5 years we have had the Motorhome, not counting the mistake I made a couple of weeks ago it cost me 70 cents."

 

I rest my case! :D

 

I'll ignore the rest of your waffle as it appears that if anyone posts anything that you don't like they're 'disrupting threads'. And this from a man who often deliberately makes provoking posts about CC wardens being little Hitlers and even worse epithets on occasion.

 

Ps And here's another from you earlier, another post designed to do nothing more than provoke.

 

"Now that's a good idea would love to see the look on the face one of those detestable Sargent Major CC wardens."

 

'Detestable' warden?' And you have the gall to criticise me. I wonder why it is that wardens may not take to you?

 

[Ian2000]

Thanks for taking the time to reply Brian. A 10-14% saving would certainly have made me think carefully about buying LHD from Germany. I had looked at some other pre-facelift Van conversions (Adria Twin mainly) and there did seem to be this level (or higher) level of discount on offer for these vans in Germany, but it didnt seem such good discounts were being offered on the new version of the westfalia which is what we had set our heart on.

[Guest Had Enough]

lennyhb - 2015-01-06 5:42 PM

 

A bit rich coming from someone who has just brought a Hymer brought in through the back door depriving the poor British franchise dealer of his profit, a case of "do as I say not as I do".

 

 

I've bought two motorhomes from UK dealers, how many have you bought? And I bought my latest one because I wanted a nearly new LHD A class. Which Hymer dealer in the UK can you recommend who has these in stock? (lol)

 

But I'm not so tight that I wanted to save a few bob by going to all the trouble of importing it myself when a specialist such as Edge Hill or Bundesvan will take the strain.

 

But as you know, my post to you was in response to your appalling comment about higher prices in Britain being entire the fault of 'greedy' UK dealers.

 

Now that is lies and bullsh*t. I have asked you for some evidence for that statement. I've asked you to provide us with the facts about profit margins here and in Germany, but I see that you choose to ignore that.

 

So I ask you again, where is your proof that UK dealers are any more greedy than their German counterparts? I tried to explain to you why markets differ but you either can't take it in or choose to ignore it to feed your own hatred of British motorhome dealers, hatred that's based on nothing more than wild assumptions that you can't back up.

 

You hate CC wardens, you hate UK dealers, do you like anyone?

[Brian Kirby]

Peter James - 2015-01-06 3:59 PM...............And they still seal the screws, even though they go into the waterproof frame to a pre determined depth. Presumably to stop water ingress from between the panel and the frame?

My guess is that by sealing the screws they are seeking to prevent capilliary attraction drawing water along screw to get behind the outer aly sheet and into the insulation/wall void. After all, it is only the framing that is inherently rot resistant: the rest of the construction seems pretty much as when wood frames were being used.

 

Sika make good sealants. My gripe with almost all motorhome and caravan construction methods is, from my experience with building construction, that the "design" of the various joints doesn't give the sealant a reasonable chance to perform as it should. Lapping two sheets of aluminium (or even worse aluminium and GRP) on a bed of sealant, and then sticking screws through them into whatever framework is used is, IMO, bonkers. First rule, if you want to keep the wet out don't make holes! Second rule, a bed of sealant that is compressed (by screwing, for example) until it effectively has no thickness, places the sealant under unsustainable shear loads when the sheets move against each other - so the seal breaks, leaving a lovely little capilliary inlet. They know this, which is why they almost invariably then cover the joint with some kind of cover strip which they - wait for it - screw down through the other two sheets onto another bed of sealant!

 

Motorhomes and caravans are still pretty well hand assembled, so the application of the sealant beads, and the insertion and tightening of the screws, can only be as good as the person doing the job. Every one makes mistakes, or has "off" days, from time to time, with predictable results.

 

It is, in many ways, IMO, the application of 21st century sealants to 1930's technology. Cynically, if the joint holds up for the duration of whatever warranty is offered, it has done its job. If the job was done on a bad day, you get early trouble. If on an average day, you get a reasonable life from it. If on a good day, you get one of those that, 15-20 years later, is still watertight. Problem is, how the hell do you know which you will get?

[Guest Peter James]

Brian Kirby - 2015-01-06 6:29 PM

 

Peter James - 2015-01-06 3:59 PM...............And they still seal the screws, even though they go into the waterproof frame to a pre determined depth. Presumably to stop water ingress from between the panel and the frame?

My guess is that by sealing the screws they are seeking to prevent capilliary attraction drawing water along screw to get behind the outer aly sheet and into the insulation/wall void. After all, it is only the framing that is inherently rot resistant: the rest of the construction seems pretty much as when wood frames were being used.

 

Sika make good sealants. My gripe with almost all motorhome and caravan construction methods is, from my experience with building construction, that the "design" of the various joints doesn't give the sealant a reasonable chance to perform as it should. Lapping two sheets of aluminium (or even worse aluminium and GRP) on a bed of sealant, and then sticking screws through them into whatever framework is used is, IMO, bonkers. First rule, if you want to keep the wet out don't make holes! Second rule, a bed of sealant that is compressed (by screwing, for example) until it effectively has no thickness, places the sealant under unsustainable shear loads when the sheets move against each other - so the seal breaks, leaving a lovely little capilliary inlet. They know this, which is why they almost invariably then cover the joint with some kind of cover strip which they - wait for it - screw down through the other two sheets onto another bed of sealant!

 

Motorhomes and caravans are still pretty well hand assembled, so the application of the sealant beads, and the insertion and tightening of the screws, can only be as good as the person doing the job. Every one makes mistakes, or has "off" days, from time to time, with predictable results.

 

It is, in many ways, IMO, the application of 21st century sealants to 1930's technology. Cynically, if the joint holds up for the duration of whatever warranty is offered, it has done its job. If the job was done on a bad day, you get early trouble. If on an average day, you get a reasonable life from it. If on a good day, you get one of those that, 15-20 years later, is still watertight. Problem is, how the hell do you know which you will get?

 

Thanks for your reply, it seems a very good description to me. Looking in museums of how they made cars on a wood frame in the 1930's not much seems to have changed. But from my own attempts at construction I feel more confident with mechanical fixings like screws, than chemical fixings like adhesives, (or even welding of thin sheet.)

At least if you do get a dud that leaks, this new frame won't rot. That is bound to make it far cheaper and easier to repair.

[Guest Peter James]

lennyhb - 2015-01-06 5:42 PM

 

(to Had Enough) you do not appear to be able read posts without changing the meaning of them to what you want to read,

 

HE always does that (lol)

[Petros90]

Brian Kirby - 2015-01-06 6:29 PM

Peter James - 2015-01-06 3:59 PM...............And they still seal the screws, even though they go into the waterproof frame to a pre determined depth. Presumably to stop water ingress from between the panel and the frame?

My guess is that by sealing the screws they are seeking to prevent capilliary attraction drawing water along screw to get behind the outer aly sheet and into the insulation/wall void. After all, it is only the framing that is inherently rot resistant: the rest of the construction seems pretty much as when wood frames were being used. Sika make good sealants. My gripe with almost all motorhome and caravan construction methods is, from my experience with building construction, that the "design" of the various joints doesn't give the sealant a reasonable chance to perform as it should. Lapping two sheets of aluminium (or even worse aluminium and GRP) on a bed of sealant, and then sticking screws through them into whatever framework is used is, IMO, bonkers. First rule, if you want to keep the wet out don't make holes! Second rule, a bed of sealant that is compressed (by screwing, for example) until it effectively has no thickness, places the sealant under unsustainable shear loads when the sheets move against each other - so the seal breaks, leaving a lovely little capilliary inlet. They know this, which is why they almost invariably then cover the joint with some kind of cover strip which they - wait for it - screw down through the other two sheets onto another bed of sealant! Motorhomes and caravans are still pretty well hand assembled, so the application of the sealant beads, and the insertion and tightening of the screws, can only be as good as the person doing the job. Every one makes mistakes, or has "off" days, from time to time, with predictable results.It is, in many ways, IMO, the application of 21st century sealants to 1930's technology. Cynically, if the joint holds up for the duration of whatever warranty is offered, it has done its job. If the job was done on a bad day, you get early trouble. If on an average day, you get a reasonable life from it. If on a good day, you get one of those that, 15-20 years later, is still watertight. Problem is, how the hell do you know which you will get?

This man is a mine of common sense and information. If only I'd been aware of his existence before we bought our van ... Brian, have you thought about writing a book for potential buyers and existing builders?

Mixing up these various technologies is obviously going to cause problems in the long-term.

Unless the vehicle is regularly damp-checked and re-sealed, of course. Ah, the wisdom of hindsight.

And I have long wondered why the outer skin was perforated, assumed that the mfrs 'knew what they were doing'.

[Brian Kirby]

Petros90 - 2015-07-02 6:08 PM.................

This man is a mine of common sense and information. If only I'd been aware of his existence before we bought our van ... Brian, have you thought about writing a book for potential buyers and existing builders?

Mixing up these various technologies is obviously going to cause problems in the long-term.

Unless the vehicle is regularly damp-checked and re-sealed, of course. Ah, the wisdom of hindsight.

And I have long wondered why the outer skin was perforated, assumed that the mfrs 'knew what they were doing'.

Steady on Pete! :-) I just happen to have a technical background in construction, and buildings are supposed to last longer than motorhomes so, despite the rumours, you have to try to get things done properly! We are all a bit inclined to be wary of innovation, and to prefer the "tried and tested" methods, and motorhome manufacturers are no different. Today's sealants are way better than those available even when your van was made and, allowing for the innate conservatism of manufacturers, it is probable the sealants used on your van were not the most technologically advanced for their time.The reason the aluminium has perforated is that the by-products of rotting wet wood are chemical compounds which corrode it. So, anywhere it has been in direct contact with the wet, rotting, wood, I would expect it to have thinned, even if it has not holed. I suspect the amount of damage will be too great for a "Plastic Padding" type repair, but it may not be. How far the damage extends can only be revealed by opening up the wall on the inside, and following the damp to sound, dry, wood. If you ask for estimates for repair you will get very high figures, because a repairer can't tell the extent of the damage, or consequently how many man-hours will be required, so must price for the worst case. The main cost will be time so, if you can do the opening up and repair work yourself, you will make a substantial saving. But, if the aluminium is extensively damaged, as said before, I think having the rear panel professionally re-skinned would be wise.