Derek Uzzell Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Just for the record, it seems that DRLs may not have been a factory option for Transit Mk 7s. Fog-lights were a Ford factory option and were fitted in the recesses in the lower corners of the bumpers. As the Mk 7’s headlamp bulb was a single H4-type contaning two filaments (one for main beam and the other for dipped beam) it would not have been possible to utilise the H15-type bulb approach as chosen for X250s and Transit Mk 8 DRLs. So, if a Transit Mk 7 already had original-equipment fog-lights in the bumpers and it were wished to fit DRLs, these either had to replace the fog-lights or be fitted elsewhere. For a limited period Ford evidently approved a Transit Mk 7 DRL retrofit kit made by the Greman company MS Design. This embedded a horizontal strip of five LEDs higher up on the bumper on each side of the vehicle. Photos are here http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=126168 A price of around £400 would not have encouraged sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Brown Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 What used to be fog lights was anything that was under 24 inches from the ground. Remember the times when we had four spots and two fogs - well the fogs were the two (regardless of lens) that was below the 24 inch level. I must admit that I too have been wondering about these DRL's and their height level. I presume, but have not seen, that legislation has been brought in to cover it but that is not necessarily the case. From my point of view I prefer the dipped headlights (correctly adjusted) as they cause less 'blindness' than some of the DRL's. The ones fitted to citreons are very bright and cause me some discomfort if I am too slow at averting my gaze. The other thing is that it was my understanding that DRL's went out when obligatory lights were switched on - and that would account for the spare wire outlined by the OP. Art Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-01-07 2:49 PM Strictly speaking, there’s no such thing as the “fog-light position”. I meant the specific designated position on the Ford Transit MK7 front bumper that was designed from the start to house factory fit fog lights that were part of the, "vision pack". It is true that fog light and DRL positions can overlap within their specified limits of fitment, so it is quite possible to fit DRL in the fog light positions on a MK7 and be legal. However my understanding of DRL is that when side-light / head lamps go on, they should go off and I am curious as to what a policeman will think (and do) when seeing what at first sight seem to be somewhat dazzling fog lights on at the same time as headlamps. Most people seeing a Transit van with lights in the fog light position will, I am sure think that they are indeed fog lights and expect them to be off unless it is foggy (or other reduced visibility). That these DRL dim to "half" brilliance, will not stop someone from thinking that they are fog lights. Reducing the brilliance of a light does not change its status and how is the average bobby going to know if the light he can see is a DRL or a fog light? Perhaps I am wrong, but these particular DRL seem a dodgy proposition and the user could find themselves having to explain why they should not have to pay a fine for using fog lights when they shouldn't . To me, these particular DRL seem problematic and best avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 The regulations require them to be dimmed or turned of when the headlights are on, so they are legal when dimmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 spospe - 2015-01-07 9:53 PM Derek Uzzell - 2015-01-07 2:49 PM Strictly speaking, there’s no such thing as the “fog-light position”. I meant the specific designated position on the Ford Transit MK7 front bumper that was designed from the start to house factory fit fog lights that were part of the, "vision pack". It is true that fog light and DRL positions can overlap within their specified limits of fitment, so it is quite possible to fit DRL in the fog light positions on a MK7 and be legal. However my understanding of DRL is that when side-light / head lamps go on, they should go off and I am curious as to what a policeman will think (and do) when seeing what at first sight seem to be somewhat dazzling fog lights on at the same time as headlamps. Most people seeing a Transit van with lights in the fog light position will, I am sure think that they are indeed fog lights and expect them to be off unless it is foggy (or other reduced visibility). That these DRL dim to "half" brilliance, will not stop someone from thinking that they are fog lights. Reducing the brilliance of a light does not change its status and how is the average bobby going to know if the light he can see is a DRL or a fog light? Perhaps I am wrong, but these particular DRL seem a dodgy proposition and the user could find themselves having to explain why they should not have to pay a fine for using fog lights when they shouldn't . To me, these particular DRL seem problematic and best avoided. When did you last see a 'Bobby' checking things like lights on a vehicle, Honestly ?? It must have been 5 or 6 years ago at least. I hardly EVER see a REAL policeman, plenty of 'pixies' and lots of CCTV but a 'Bobby' Hardly ever, and never with anything to do with Traffic, unless there is an accident. The worst that could happen is an MOT failure, then you would have to be VERY unlucky. Ray ps I you look at the 2013/14 Warwick Duo, you'll see that it has these LED DRL's fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Rayjsj - 2015-01-08 9:00 AM When did you last see a 'Bobby' checking things like lights on a vehicle, Honestly ?? It must have been 5 or 6 years ago at least. I hardly EVER see a REAL policeman, plenty of 'pixies' and lots of CCTV but a 'Bobby' Hardly ever, and never with anything to do with Traffic, unless there is an accident. The worst that could happen is an MOT failure, then you would have to be VERY unlucky. Ray ps I you look at the 2013/14 Warwick Duo, you'll see that it has these LED DRL's fitted. My neighbours son was recently stopped and given a fixed penalty fine for driving with fog lights on when it was not foggy (he was driving a car with headlamps and fogs both on). I have a 2014 Warwick Duo and it has Auto-Sleeper fitted DRL which go out when the headlamps go on. The DRL are fitted in the step recess of the front bumper and not in the fog light position. In fact, it is impossible to drive the Warwick on sidelights; the light switch only allows dip, or main beam. Sidelights are only possible when parked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 By the amount of idiots running around down here with there fog lights on all the time they certainly don't enforce it down here. A bit irrelevant really as it's legal to run with dimmed DRL's with headlights on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Spospe These links may be of interest http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/daytime-running-lights.html https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/placement_requirements_for_retro As I understand the situation, if it’s mandatory for a vehicle to be factory-fitted with DRLs (eg. the latest Fiat X290 and Ford Transit Mk 8) the vehicle manufacturer must comply with the technical specification of the DRLs, their position on the vehicle and how they must operate as specified in the UNECE regulations referred to on the AA webpage. I’ve looked briefly though those regulations and, as far as I can make out, although dimming of DRLs is acceptable in specific instances (the AA webpage mentions when the DRLs are combined with front position lamps), when the vehicle’s headlamps are switched on the DRLs should switch off. However, if DRLs are retrofitted to a vehicle that, when it was built, did not need to have DRLs (as will have been the case with Transit Mk 7s and your Warwick) the UNECE regulations do not necessarily apply. The DRLs fitted to your Warwick comply with the UNECE regulations by switching off when your motorhome’s lights are switched on, but there is (apparently) no UK legal imperative that they should do so. If it’s wished to retrofit DRLs to a Transit Mk 7 (or an X250 Warwick) that dim rather than extinguish, this seems to be permissible. (I can’t say I’m 100% confident with my interpretation of the rules. If you think it’s wrong, you might want to do as Lenny suggested and challenge Ledcom about the legality of their dimming retrofit kits.) Regarding the MOT test, DRL-related advice is given on this webpage: https://mattersoftesting.blog.gov.uk/common-mistakes-made-by-mot-testers/ I’m doubtful that there was ever a prohibition regarding adding ‘visibility’ lights to the front of a vehicle if one so wished, as long as those lights were the right colour and suitably positioned. In the 1990s, if you wanted to follow Volvo’s lead and have datytime running lamps, I don’t think there was anything to prevent you DIYing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 spospe Returning to your posting of 2015-01-08 9:42 AM, the Highway Code’s guidance about fog lights is as shown here https://www.gov.uk/driving-adverse-weather-conditions-226-to-237/overview-226 so your neighbour’s son appears to have been legitimately fined. But the type of light-unit marketed by Ledcom is not a fog light and, because traffic policemen aren’t fools, would be recognised by them as not being a fog light. I don’t think it’s illegal to retrofit ‘dimming’ DRLs to vehicles and I’m doubtful that a UK policeman would be prepared to challenge the legality of retrofitted DRL-type lights that dimmed when the vehicle’s other lights were turned on. Lighting technology has changed rapidly in recent years and UK vehicle lighting-related law has not. Besides DRLs, there are now HID and LED headlamps, ‘adaptive’ headlamps and cornering lamps that are linked to a vehicle’s speed and steering-wheel deflection. I notice that the latest Transit Mk 8 has cornering lamps (which seem to be standard and unable to be disabled by the driver) that use a powerful 55W halogen bulb. This type of lamp might well concern a UK policeman as mentioned here http://www.policespecials.com/forum/index.php/topic/132590-auto-front-fog-lights/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Expect this will be of interest to some. 'Placement requirements for retro-fitted Daylight Running Lights (DRL).' It is a request made to the Department for Transport for information and the reply. https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/placement_requirements_for_retro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I think that we all agree that the Construction and Use regulations for motor vehicles are complex and seemingly getting more complex as time goes by. I have considerable sympathy for the Police, who are seemingly expected to carry an encyclopaedian knowledge of what is legal and what is not and can easily understand them occasionally getting it wrong. Perhaps it is time to put this thread to bed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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