josie gibblebucket Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Hi, when we go on a long journey in the van, after a couple of hours it starts misfiring and generally struggling, this usually continues on the return journey, but doesn't always happen on short trips. Just wondered if you had any suggestions as I know you "know your stuff" with vans. Its a 95 boxer 2l petrol. The AA claimed there was nothing much they could do about it, not very helpful! The plugs are not very old and the AA said the fuel seems to be getting through - any suggestions welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Check that the vent in the fuel cap is clear, as it could be causing a vacuum in the tank as fuel is drawn off. Next time it happens, stop the van and remove the cap to allow air in. If it runs o/k afterwards it could prove what I have said above. The symptoms have all the indications of fuel starvation to me. How long since the fuel filter was changed? as it could be partially blocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 You say the plugs are not very old, has it only happened since new plugs were fitted? Some engines are very fussy about plugs I've had a couple of vauxhall where the engines would have a mind of their own if they had Champion plugs fitted they only run properly on AC Delco or NGK plugs. The Champions tended to track out causing the engine to misfire then because the engine was running slower the ECU wood crank up the revs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josie gibblebucket Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Thanks for the replies guys. The fuel filter was replaced at the last service, under 6 months ago. Not sure about the plugs, but they look quite new, however I take on board what you say about the different brands. On our return the first time we'd had probs, we took it to a local garage who said it could only be a fuel or spark problem. They found water in no 2 port (there had been a torrential downpour on that journey) he dried it out and all was fine. When the misfiring began again on a lng trip to Somerset we just thought it was the same thing. Called the AA out, they said no2 port was dry and there was nothing they could really do, other than get it recovered. We declined and limped home unimpressed as the AA is not cheap grrrr. Could it be that the plug leads need replacing, they may well be the originals, or the coil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josie gibblebucket Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Should also mention that apparently it cannot be plugged into a diagnostic machine as its too prehistoric! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydney1 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Had a similar problem on my VW. Ok on short trips but problems on the longer trips. Turned out that the coil was on its way out and only manifested itself when hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Leads, plugs, coil, distributer cap are all relatively cheap and all break down over time so should be changed anyway to eliminate them as the source. Until Nick passes by can I nominate the manifold, as it may have a crack which opens up with the heat of the running engine, just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 We had the same engine in a Boxer years ago and having suffered similar faults we found that water forming around the spark plug housings was one issue and after drying them out we also found some arcing damage to the plug caps so we changed the leads which also gave a better seal where the plug caps enter deep into the cam cover. If changing the plug leads I would be tempted to change the distributor cap and rotor arm too as part of the process of elimination if new leads did not help. Just to complicate it - new spark plugs can also fail and if the fault ever happens where you are safely able to stop and whip the plugs out the colour of the electrodes might give a clue if it is just one specific plug, or none of them. Concurrently we also had what turned out to be an intermittent fuel pump failure which caused the engine to be starved of fuel sometimes and not others and it would run fine for hundreds of miles and then play up before running OK again. It eventually failed whilst we were in Longleat Safari park and we had to be towed out by the armed rangers - great fun! It was recovered and fixed under warranty fortunately and I never did discover what was replaced. If you had a new fuel filter fitted could it be that air is leaking in somewhere which would cause fuel starvation. It can be hard to tell an electrical fault from a fuel starvation issue but electrical faults can sometimes make the engine a lot more jerky than fuel faults where the engine sometimes tends to fade out and then restarts and there is a tendency for the unburnt petrol in the exhaust to ignite when it fires up again causing backfires. Sorry I can't offer more help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Old petrol engine? Depending on the carbs, unscrew the plunger on the top and make sure there is oil in it. Or take the top off of the carb and check the diaphram, they stretch with time and get tiny pinprick holes in them. Problems then occur when the engine is at it hottest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I believe the 2.0 litre petrol in the Boxer is injection Donna, the old Talbot express 1.9 petrol engine had a single downdraught Solex (I think?) type carb but as it was not of the SU or Stromberg type it does not have a dashpot or diaphragm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Hello, Sorry you had to wait; I have been out and about a lot today..... The guys above are right. The first things to check and probably replace would be the HT leads followed by any coils, condensors and other usual suspects. It is going to be something electrical I believe that degrades as it becomes hot. I am not very familiar with these engines but I suspect that it has either one or two coil packs and these are notorious on many vehicles for thermal related failures. None of the items are terribly expensive so I would just chuck them all out and see what happens. A new set of Bosch plugs would be a wise investment; again only a couple of pounds each from the bigger factors. I don't think it will be a fuel starvation issue because it would only happen when you put your foot down and not at idle if this were the case, and it would not be dependent on engine temperature either. If none of this seems to help I would be looking at camshaft and crankshaft sensors because these also are prone to heat sensitivity issues. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 After a bit of research it seems the Magnetti Marelli engine management did have a primitive diagnostic set up accessed by a port close to the ECU. I could not find how it operated but the codes were given by counting the number of times the ignition light flashed. Of course without the list of what the flashes indicate it no use. Most of the people who worked on them are now retired. As NIck says it swapping bits time if you can find them, although variations of the system were widely used at that time and leads etc may well fit across the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josie gibblebucket Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Thank you everyone, lots to think about there. As far as I can see, there is no carb or distributor cap, so assume that means electronic ignition? Its very annoying that its intermittent, and a lot of car repair places are not interested in lookiing, as it can be time consuming and not necessarily very profitable! The bit that I think may be the coil pack is a black squarish box, which looks newer than everything else, but we've had the van 7/8 years and we've never changed it, so it could have been a problem in the past. Is changing the plug leads easy? Is it something we could safely tackle as amateurs? Sorry, but I don't understand how to locate the sensors you mention Nick, is that also a diy possibility? Thanks for all your help. Oh and its a jerky engine type of misfire, after a long trip back from Taunton I wished I had a sports bra! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 josie gibblebucket - 2015-01-08 7:47 PM Oh and its a jerky engine type of misfire, after a long trip back from Taunton I wished I had a sports bra! That does sound like an electrical issue Nicola! Have a word with Donna about supporting issues - but thanks for the wonderful mental image which makes the mind boggle and will stay with us for a while! There is no carburettor but can you trace the plug leads back to their source to see where and how they are fitted. I seem to recall that some early Boxers had a mechanical distributor but most do not as the spark is controlled and powered by the ecu and, I think ??? but can't really remember so could be wrong that the HT leads run from the flywheel end of the camshaft which is I think at the top right hand side of the engine viewed from the front of the van? If you are unsure of what is what could you post a photo of the engine to see how many collective memories it jogs I do seem to recall that the electronic ignition engines are fussy about the right spark plug types and I also seem to recall being advised that NGK or Bosch are better than Champion - but it was all a long time ago as I've been on diesel engined van's since 2001! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 As has been stated above, it could be the plug leads. The carbon thread in hem does degrade over time. Thy are easy to change. Make sure you replace the new ones on exactly the same plug and ignitor location or the ignition sequence will be out and the engine will not start. You may be able to get them from Halfords (expensive) or your local motor factors. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josie gibblebucket Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 Thank you everybody, I'm going to try and replace the easy bits, and take it from there. Today, it started first time and purred like a kitten all the way into town, so it can't be too serious if it runs well only a week after playing up. It just seems to happen on long journeys, so maybe something is degrading with the heat . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickt Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I see you live in Suffolk in my area. I take my MH to a garage in Alpheton on the Bury St Edmunds to Sudbury road. I find these people very good to deal with, friendly, not to expensive and knowledgable. Speak to Andy there he should be able to help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josie gibblebucket Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 That's worth knowing, what is the garage called please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 As above, modern plug leads have a carbon core, and after time the continual sparking causes the carbon to migrate along the lead, leaving insufficient one end. That can cause intermittent firing since, from memory, a richer mixture (when accellerating, for example) requires a "fatter" spark to ignite it. So, as above, change the leads for new. Condensation anywhere on the HT side will lead to the spark tracking through the condensation instead of going where it should. When it does this it leaves a carbon track behind that is almost impossible to remove, but becomes an easier route for the spark to follow than jumping the plug gap. So, change plugs, in case (make sure you get the right ones), and anything else that distributes the HT spark. Back to distributors I once had an evasive problem with misfiring that turned out to be a loose low tension connector to the coil. Once I found that (accident) it ran perfectly, so check for any loose 12V connectors around the ignition system and push them firmly on. I think it's going to have to be a case of trial and error, replacing one thing at a time until the problem goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickt Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Nicola, The garage is Alpheton Garage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josie gibblebucket Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 Thank you Brian and Mickt and all who replied. I'll let you know how I get on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 An old trick to sort out ignition problems was to look after dark when any spark making an external escape bid can be seen. On a damp night It can look a bit like a miniature Blackpool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josie gibblebucket Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 Good tip, thanks George! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josie gibblebucket Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 Eventually managed to get around to changing the coil pack. Van ran great immediately after, purred like a kitten. The next day, missing again, but worse than ever. So, changed plugs and leads, same thing, ran absolutely perfect for a day or two. Thought we'd cracked it, then today its missing again. Noticed I could smell fuel when it misfired today, bloomin thing, just what is wrong with it grrr. Need to sort it, as need to sell it. >:-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 You'll smell the fuel because it's not being ignited continually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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