Donhooley Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I think Motorhomes purchasers need to do something about this industry. The amount of times I read about probems people have if they have a fault with their van. I bought a 2012 Bailey Approach 704 with 5.000 miles on the clock at a price of £38.000, from a dealer in Warwick called Nick Whale. Dealer I bought it off and they informed me I should have it repaired by my insurerWe only had the van 60 days and my wife decided to use the grill for the first time since we bought it. Within less than 1 minute the smoke alarm went off. My wife noticed a fire through the main ove door. She opend the door and the fir was coming from underneath the oven. She could not get the pin out of the fire extinguisher as she had recently had a shoulder operation. She ran next door to my brother in laws van and he managed to put the fire out (I was out walking the dog) this happened on the 23 rd Novemer 2014. I had the van checked on the 24th and Was told the van was not safe to use as the fire appeared to have started by an electrical problem at the rear of the cooker. I contacted the the dealer who informed me I should have it repaired by my insurance company. I disagreed as I felt it was a manufacturers fault. I got a call off the dealer on the 24 th November informing me that Bailey said I should take the van to one of their authorised workshops in Accrington Lancashire. I explained that I bought the van off them and not Bailey and my contract was with them. I eventually took the van to be assessed and the company thought it may be a cooker problem. Bailey then sent out two engineers from thetford cookers. Before they left the engineers assured me it was not a cooker problem but a wiring problem possibly in the loom and that they would send their report to Bailey. I explained this to the dealer and ask for a replacement or loan vehicle as I was going on holiday for Christmas and new year. They would do neither. After taking professional advice I was told the dealer should under the 1979 Sale of goods act replace, repair or refund my money as the motor home is not fit for purpose. They refused insisting it was fit at the point of sale. My problem is that if I have it repaired on my insurance it will not be ready unti late April at the earliest, as a new drivers side wall has to be manufactured by Bailey for this van. If I take dealer to court it could take longer and I will be without a van. It really is disgusting the way we are treated by these companies. If the law says it should be replaced, repaired or my money refunded why wont these companies do it. The only good thing about going through the courts my solicitor said he will sue for loss of use. This company have recently moved into new premises and are having an opend day the first week in February. I am thinking of going with a couple of placards strapped to my front and back stating what poor customer after sales service they have/ or not. Donhooley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 You are not the First person to have a complaint like this, I think I would have taken up Baileys offer and taken it to them for repair. Bailey Themselves built it after all. And it is their good name at stake. Dealers can dissapear overnight, in administration (and one's with terrible Customer feedback often do). Good luck, keep us up to date. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Sorry to hear that your wife had what sounds like an alarming experience. Your story also reads like you became very demanding of the Dealer from the outset and by turning down the Dealer's offer of having the MH examined by Bailey and demanding a loan vehicle you provoked them into digging their heels in, so now you have to do it the hard way and sue the Dealer. The Dealer will presumably put the matter in the hands of their insurer and they will consult an engineer and their solicitor. The Dealer may also withdraw any further cooperation or even contact with you while the matter remains disputed. You may be unlikey to get much cooperation in the normal way if you have any further problems. You will need to convince the court that (on the balance of probability) the fire was caused by a latent fault which was present at the time of sale, two months before the fire, so you will need expert engineering evidence to that effect, so you will probably have to pay for an engineer to examine the MH and report on the matter. You will also have to wait until the court hears and decides the matter before getting any money, which will take time, and (if you want the MH to be available for use while this is happening) make your own arrangements to get a loan vehicle and/or have your MH repaired sufficiently to return it to use. If you lose the court case you will probably have to pay the Dealer's costs as well as your own - and pay for the MH repairs. I appreciate that you might feel you have a cast iron case but it might not turn out to be as simple as that. It might turn out to have been better to avoid taking a challenging and demanding approach, at least until you knew you were on solid ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Following on from Stuarts comments, they (the dealers insurers) can probably afford more expensive solicitors than you, also in a civil case even if you win you may not get your costs awarded so you could still be thousands out of pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 As you bought it second hand, 2 years old,I dought that Bailey are responsible. How do you know what the previous owner may have done to the van? Has anything been added to the van electricaly, since you purchased it? You should have taken up Baileys offer. It does not help to Have a go at the dealer, even tough we all sympathise with you. Hope you get it sorted, thats what the insurance is for. Our van was off the road for three months due to an accident, (not our fault), we did not get or ask for a replacement, don't think you get insurance (like cars) with a tempory replacement van included. PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donhooley Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 If you read my post you will see I did not demand a replacement van from the dealer, I quote " I asked dealer if they would let me have a replacement vehicle ad I was going on holiday. I did not refuse to take the van to one of baileys dealers, I just explained to the dealer that on advice from trading standards that my complaint was with the dealer and not Bailey. Bailey would not speak with me as their customer services explained they will only speak with dealers. Bailey had a report done by engineers but will not share the contents of that report with myself or the dealer. I wonder why!! Is it because the fire was caused by a wiring problem and therefore they could be liable? This vehicle is still under warranty to Bailey and the company I bought it off. The law says the dealer would have to prove my wife was negligent and caused the fire. My insurance companies engineer agrees with the initial engineers report that the cause was an electrical fire. The insurance company have stated that I am insured with them and will pay for the repairs. They will then persue the dealer for their money. Do you work for a dealer by any chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pw9crab Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 We also had a fire in our Rapido motorhome after owning it for only 6 hours our dealer didn't want to know the hole thing was burnt to the ground in less then 5 mins and we were miles away from home thank goodness for Comfort Insurance they sorted every thing out and we had our money back in full with in 3 weeks good luck We have now brought anew van and look forward to following our dreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donhooley Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 I did take up Baileys offer and it went to their authorised dealer within on week of the fire. I did not expect Bailey to accept any responsibility as I did not buy it off them, even though it is still under their 3 year warranty. Bailey will not allow the off side wall to be repaired as the 6 year water ingress warranty will be void. A complete new side is needed. I would respectfully suggest to readers that if you subscribe to MMM magazine, have a look at their October issue where they give advice on the 1979 sale of goods act. You may change your mind about the law and dealers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 What rotten luck. If you bought the van less than six months before the cooker caught fire, the Sale of Goods Act requires the trader to accept that the fault was present at the time of sale, and he is under an obligation to repair or replace the goods within a reasonable time. He is entitled to satisfy himself that the fault is not the result of damage you have caused, and he is entitled to decide whether he will repair, replace, or refund you. You are obliged to be reasonable in deciding whether you will accept his offer, but you are not obliged to accept an offer you consider unreasonable - though you are likely to have to explain why you consider the offer unreasonable. I would suggest that you say no more about the dealer on here, as you have already named him, and that you do not parade you van in front of his premises with derogatory notices attached. It seems you are already progressing your complaint with legal advice and, from what you say, that you may have to sue the dealer to get recompense. Anything you now say or do, if it comes to the attention of the dealer, may be used by him against you to show that you are an unreasonable and vindictive person, and that may damage your chances of success in court, if that is what eventually happens. In the meantime, take as many photographs of the damage as you can, so that you can illustrate clearly the scale of the damage, and the risk to safety that the fire caused. Had your wife not been observant and quick witted, things could have been far, far, worse. Take the advice of your solicitor, but make sure you brief him clearly as to exactly what you want him to achieve on your behalf. Are you agreeable, in principle, to having the van properly repaired? If so, try to determine what is the best way to get the repair carried out. Do you want compensation if the holiday has to be cancelled pending repairs? If so, find out whether the dealer is entitled to rely on you having cancellation insurance, or whether he is liable for you loss (I suspect the latter, but I don't know). Do you want compensation for the loss of use of your van? It seems you bought it intending to use it all year round, so such compensation seems to me reasonable. Do you want compensation for the shock of finding the van on fire? You may be entitled to this as it seems (understandably) to have shaken you. All these items need to be included in your claim against the dealer, so that he can see the scale of what faces him. Don't forget to include all your legal and related costs in your claim. You will be unlikely to win outright, but your solicitor should be able to advise you where he thinks the court will put the knife. But, what you omit from your claim can't be taken into account by the court, only what you include. Be prepared for possible offers from the dealer and consider what you may be willing to accept before you get to court. You may get a last minute offer to settle on the eve of the hearing, be prepared for that and think carefully what you would accept and what you would reject. There is some risk in rejecting an offer that is marginally below your expectations, but which the court may see as reasonable and consequently then see you as greedy, and award even below the offer. Unless either of you suffered injury, you are only expected to be put back into the position you were in before you bought the van, not to emerge in financial profit. But, on a good day.............................. :-) If you can, try to get the matter settled with the dealer before you initiate court proceedings. Talk to the owner, managing director, or company secretary, and try to get them to see reason. Ultimately, it will be the quickest and cheapest remedy all round. But above all, keep your solicitor informed of what you are doing. You may need him to accompany you to meetings, so he'll need to be in the know. Make, and keep, notes of conversations, with dates and times: memory is notoriously fickle. Also, make sure you get and confirm firm dates for any offers to repair or compensate. It is not unknown for people to make offers merely to gain time; you need to make clear that if you accept, your acceptance is conditional on delivery in full by the due date, otherwise any deal is off. But, above all, consult your solicitor before accepting or rejecting any offer that does not come through him. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Donhooley - 2015-01-14 6:17 PM If you read my post you will see I did not demand a replacement van from the dealer, I quote " I asked dealer if they would let me have a replacement vehicle ad I was going on holiday. I did not refuse to take the van to one of baileys dealers, I just explained to the dealer that on advice from trading standards that my complaint was with the dealer and not Bailey. .. Do you work for a dealer by any chance? Your post still came across as written by a stroppy customer who went in fists up ready for a fight and by doing so dug an unnecessary hole for himself. You are also a first time contributor to this Forum, which suggests you came here hoping to get support in order to cause trouble for your Dealer. You even waded in suggesting that we motorhomers should be sorting out the dealers. Your story sounded selective and one sided, so it raised my suspicions. Sorry of I took any of it the wrong way but you do seem to have ended up having to do what the Dealer suggested to you in the first place. Your insurers might end up trying recover their costs from the Dealer but if they do then they probably won't go about it the way you were doing. No, I don't work for a dealer, or anyone else in the MH trade and I have never had any dealings with the dealership you named. I have however had mostly very good service from dealers and I wouldn't dream of picking an argument or going to trading standards or a solicitor unless being friendly with the dealer had failed, I was sure of my facts and I had no alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The OP seemed to me to be more upset and frustrated by the complexity of the situation in which he finds himself well out of pocket and heavily inconvenienced through no fault of his own rather than as a stroppy customer but as ever we all read these things differently? Whilst it might not be a legal obligation, one does hear of dealers who lend a customer a van for a pre booked holiday when their own is unusable and as a publicity and goodwill gesture it can only do them good. We are thinking of changing our van this year - had enough tin can and want a proper coachbuilt again - and the dealer involved is local to us but if we go there I will bear this report in mind. Technically it may well be that the initial electrical fault that caused the fire will not be covered by the insurance but the resultant fire and smoke damage will be, although any decent insurer should not quibble over this, and it is also possible that the insurance policy has a section covering the hire of a temporary replacement van - most don't but some do I believe? The repercussions of claiming on your own insurance can be long lasting with the excess (if any) and potential for lost NCD as well as potential premium loading at renewal. Anyway I wish the OP well and hope that he will not be put off by negative comments all will continue to join us and keep us informed. Meanwhile maybe he could ask for a face to face meeting with the dealer principle to calmly and politely try and seek a bit more help and support, after all whilst it might prove to be the dealer's at least partial responsibility it was hardly their fault? If so be sure to take notes and take a witness with you. Good luck and you have my sympathies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donhooley Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 Thank you for your comments and I will take them on board. My solicitor ( who deals in consumer law) informed me once he has seen the independent engineers report he will see if the dealer will make an offer. My solicitor is of the opinion that this was not an accident as the dealer suggests, but a fault with the vehicle and hopefully the report will confirm this. Interesting I spoke with previous owner who assured me she had never used the cooker. They always went on electric and used the microwave and electric kettle. Once again than you for your advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Interesting that your Solicitor has expressed a view about cause and liability before seeing an engineer's report. You will be getting your MH repaired by your insurer and so it is only the uninsured loss which you might be able to get from the Dealer by using your Solicitor. Those might be substantial (eg the likely increase in future premiums) and so you might think doing that worthwhile but take care. It will be important not to be determined to pursue the matter without keeping your feet on the ground about the potential downside of a litigious approach and the risk of very substantial additional costs to you, and whether i really makes sense to press ahead in relation to the limited gain. Don't let stubborness or pride drive you. Solicitors make money out of people who engage in disputes and the bigger and longer the dispute, the more money they make. Scottish solicitors are said to use the term "dripping roast" to refer to the art of telling clients enough to keep them interested in continuing without revealing the full realities of the downside unnecessarily, which might put them off. It sounds like the Dealer might have been negligent in doing an adequate pre-delivery inspection and a latent wiring fault mighthave caused the fire - but you haven't got hard evidence of that yet, so proceed with caution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donhooley Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 Thank you. Just spoken to insurance company, their engineers report should be with me tomorrow pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Sorted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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