Brock Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Thanks for updating us and good luck in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawcara Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-01-24 9:32 AM The following link is to a USA 2013 thread that reviews a European-spec Ducato with 3.0litre motor and ComfortMatic gearbox http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/07/review-2013-fiat-ducato-cargo-van-video/ The large gap between 1st and 2nd gear-ratios is highlighted and would explain why ‘automatic’ shifts from 1st to 2nd can be slow. It’s not a matter of protecting the gearbox - it just takes more time to match engine revs when the ratio difference is wide. In this report it states that fuel economy and clutch life are improved. Does anyone have any comment on this? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Allen Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Hi guys and gals. I am a new forum member and this is my first post. I have been watching the threads about the Comfortmatic system as we will shortly be purchasing an Autotrail Apache 700 and have been debating whether or not to get the comfortmatic or manual version with a150bhp engine. I have a couple of questions and also some observations. Q1. I have read the horror story of the member who seemed to have continuous Comfort Matic problems that went on for months and were still not resolved when the thread just seemed to end . Perhaps Nick of Euroserve could tell us of roughly the proportion of vehicles with the Comfort Matic system that have problems in comparison with the manual. I realise that forums can be disproportionately scary sometimes and would like a sense of proportion. I also don't want a high risk of being stranded in the middle of France. Q2. To change gear manually from 1 to 2 to 3 etc do you flick the gear lever backwards because if you do this is the opposite direction to my wife's VW Up which will not be helpful. A little bit of input about the slow gear change that may be of interest is that our VW Up has a robotised 5 speed box and has exactly the same symptoms (slow 1st to 2nd change - almost dies sometimes) as described in earlier posts on this forum and needs to be driven the same way as recommended. Maybe the ECU software was written by the same company. Thanks in anticipation of your replies. Cheers, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 John Allen - 2015-02-04 9:13 PM A little bit of input about the slow gear change that may be of interest is that our VW Up has a robotised 5 speed box and has exactly the same symptoms (slow 1st to 2nd change - almost dies sometimes) as described in earlier posts on this forum and needs to be driven the same way as recommended. Maybe the ECU software was written by the same company. Thanks in anticipation of your replies. Cheers, John Ww have a Golf with the brilliant DSG box. We were thinking of changing to an Up auto for ease of parking in a very small space but when I spoke to a guy in the service department he looked around, lowered his voice, and told me to forget it because it was no good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 This article relates to the various types of ‘automatic’ transmission currently used http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/advice/which-sort-of-auto-gearbox-is-best-/ Regarding Hawcara’s question, it should be anticipated that the Comfortmatic transmission should provide better fuel consumption than the manual-only equivalent and that the clutch should last longer. This is simply because ComfortMatic will consistently do a better job than Joe Average who can’t be expected to be an expert in clutch control or in using fuel-saving techniques. It also needs remembering that the article I provided a link to is American and that ‘stick shift’ is relatively uncommon there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-02-05 9:41 AM This article relates to the various types of ‘automatic’ transmission currently used http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/advice/which-sort-of-auto-gearbox-is-best-/ . Complete with a photo and comment on the VW Up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 John Allen - 2015-02-04 9:13 PM Hi guys and gals. I am a new forum member and this is my first post. I have been watching the threads about the Comfortmatic system as we will shortly be purchasing an Autotrail Apache 700 and have been debating whether or not to get the comfortmatic or manual version with a150bhp engine. I have a couple of questions and also some observations. Q1. I have read the horror story of the member who seemed to have continuous Comfort Matic problems that went on for months and were still not resolved when the thread just seemed to end . Perhaps Nick of Euroserve could tell us of roughly the proportion of vehicles with the Comfort Matic system that have problems in comparison with the manual. I realise that forums can be disproportionately scary sometimes and would like a sense of proportion. I also don't want a high risk of being stranded in the middle of France. Q2. To change gear manually from 1 to 2 to 3 etc do you flick the gear lever backwards because if you do this is the opposite direction to my wife's VW Up which will not be helpful. A little bit of input about the slow gear change that may be of interest is that our VW Up has a robotised 5 speed box and has exactly the same symptoms (slow 1st to 2nd change - almost dies sometimes) as described in earlier posts on this forum and needs to be driven the same way as recommended. Maybe the ECU software was written by the same company. Thanks in anticipation of your replies. Cheers, John Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums, John. Taking your Q2 first... To shift manually to a higher gear-ratio with the Comfort-Matic transmission the gear lever is moved downwards/backwards, or upwards/forwards to shift to a lower gear-ratio. As you say - the opposite to a VW UP! Demonstration shown here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prgdk8vROmA and you can download Comfort-Matic-related documentation via the this link http://aftersales.fiat.com/elum/Home.aspx?brand_code=77&id_language=2 I’m not sure if Nick Fisher (or anyone else) would be able to provide statistics that would meet your Q1 requirements. Comfort-Matic has been available for Ducatos with the 3.0litre motor since the introduction of the X250 range in 2006, and available for Ducatos with the 2.3litre 130bhp/150bhp motor since 2011 when Euro 5 motors came out. The basic ‘mechanical’ parts of manual and Comfort-Matic transmissions used with the 3.0litre motor are pretty similar, but the manual and Comfort-Matic transmissions fitted to 2.3litre powerplants differ. It might be reasonable to compare relative reliability of the mechanical aspects of Ducato manual and Comfort-Matic transmissions (eg. Do clutches fail more often on one type?) but a Ducato with Comfort-Matic can have problems that a Ducato with a manual transmission can’t because Comfort-Matic’s clever gear-shifting system is not present on the much simpler manual transmission. What you really need to know is how reliable Comfort-Matic has been on Ducatos and, when there have been problems, what these have been and how satisfactorily they were resolved. Fiat probably has data on under-warranty claims for Comfort-Matic-equipped Ducatos, but those data will be commercial-in-confidence information. Nick should be able to say what, if any, problems he has had with his Comfort-Matic-equipped fleet of Ducatos and be able to advise on what he understands regarding Ducato Comfort-Matic reliability generally. But it’s inevitable that Comfort-Matic’s complexity will present an additional challenge (compared to the manual gearbox) if a ‘system’ problem occurs. As you say, there have been a few on-line complaints about Comfort-Matic-related problems that have proved extremely difficult to resolve. But a cursory GOOGLE-search suggests such problems are few and far between since Ducatos first had Comfort-Matic. It really boils down to how you view risk. Where transmission-related problems are concerned, it should be less risky to buy a manual-transmission Ducato. That transmission is intrinsically simpler than the Comfort-Matic type and, consequently, transmission faults should be simpler to diagnose and fix. So if you are going to have nightmares about the type of “horror story” you mention happening to you (and you don’t actually need automatic gear-shifting) opt for a manual gearbox. Personally, I quite like gear-changing and, as I don’t do much start-stop city driving (and I’ve got a newish bionic left knee that should last for a while), an automatic gearbox isn’t a prerequisite. I’d prefer a traditional torque-converter transmission to the Comfort-Matic variety, but I doubt if that preference – or concerns about potential unreliability – would stop me buying a Ducato with Comfort-Matic if I wanted/needed an automatic motorhome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 John If you search for 'Comfort-matic' and 'Euroserv' as author on this forum, perhaps limiting your search to the last 12 months, you will find Nick has 4 year old vehicles at 100,000 miles without problems. There is also a post about Ambulances having the Comfort-matic and clocking up trouble free mileage. However, these are all 3 litre vans, I think, and there is less evidence for the 150 or 130 motors. However, the trawl will provide a more balanced picture and show there are many happy motorcaravanners with the Comfort-Matic. Fiat claim 50% of the commercial market now specify the Comfort-matic. That's not surprising given that variations of auto boxes proliferate the commercial market in trucks, buses and vans because it helps control drivers' habits. My answer to Alan, the OP, was "If in doubt, don't." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Allen Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Thanks Derek and Brock for your comprehensive answer to my questions. I still haven't made my mind up as I am also trying to get my head around whether to go for a 150 upgrade on the 2.3L or go the whole hog up to 3.0L. We are intending to buy a new Autotrail Apache 700 and the maximum gross weight can be up to 4250Kg which will take some grunt uphill with a VW Up toad. Dread to think about fuel consumption. I used to tow a 1900Kg twin axle with a Land Cruiser and that returned about 22mpg so I would hope to be at least as good as that with a fair bit of motorway driving involved. thanks again guys John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Duplicate deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 There are some posts somewhere about the 2.3 being underpowered on a 4250 kg vehicle. If you intend to tow a car as well surely you must opt for the 3 litre engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I agree with Mike above. If finance is a constraint, put the money into a 3 litre rather than Comfortmatic on a van of that weight towing a car. If there is a physical need for the automatic option, then I still think you'de be better off with the 3 litre than a 150PS 2.3, finance permitting. Its that bottom end torque that you'll need, rather than raw power, and the 3 litre delivers that better that either of the 2.3 litre versions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Have all the issues with the 3 litre manual and reversing judder been resolved? Come to that, have all the Sevel van reversing issues been resolved, 2.3 or 3 litre? I'm in a similar quandary about the spec of the van I intend to buy. I've decided in part due to this thread that don't want Comfortmatic, but I will need to reverse the van up a short 1 in 8 drive whilst turning sharp left hand down to park at home. By all accounts, the 3 litre is a cracking engine, but with a dual mass flywheel when mated to the manual box, whereas the 2.3 litre variants both have a sold flywheel I believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Deneb When ‘juddering in reverse’ began to be reported with SEVEL X250 vehicles, three different motors (2.2litre, 2.3litre ad 3.0litre), 5-speed and 6-speed manual or ComfortMatic transmissions, a ‘solid’ flywheel (2.3litre motor) or dual-mass flywheel (the other powerplants) and different final-drive ratios (for ‘maxi’ or ’non-maxi’ chassis) were all in the mix. Although there was a tremendous amount of complaining from UK motorcaravanners about the juddering problem, and some X250 owners’ motorhomes’ transmissions were modified as a result, little if any effort seems to have been directed towards gathering/analysing information to try to ascertain which vehicle technical specifications were most prone to the problem. My understanding is that, around 2009, factory changes were made to the transmissions fitted to the smaller-capacity motors. This apparently fixed the problem - or at least nobody buying a new ‘small engined’ X250-based motorhome complained about juddering after that. Some owners of 3.0litre-engined X250-based motorhomes had experienced clutch-related problems (with an over-high reverse-gear ratio being judged the culprit) but no factory-changes were made to the transmission (manual or ComfortMatic) used with that motor. 3.0litre-engined X250 motorhomes with ComfortMatic were considered to be immune to ‘juddering’, very likely because the driver was largely removed from the reversing equation. For the current X290 the final-drive ratio of the transmissions (manual and ComfortMatic) fitted to the 3.0litre powerplant has been lowered. I believe that all 2.3litre motors fitted with ComfortMatic (X250 and X290 vehicles) have a dual-mass flywheel, whereas all 2.3litre motors with manual transmission have a solid flywheel. A 1-in-8 slope (12.5%) is fairly steep and a sharp turn would further complicate reversing up it. Logically, if you wanted to minimise the chances of transmission-related problems, you ought to opt for a light ’maxi’-chassis motorhome (a Globecar, say) with the 3.0litre motor and ComfortMatic. Next down would be a similar specification motorhome, but with 3.0litre motor and manual transmission. At the other end of the scale would be a heavyish motorhome with 2.3litre 130bhp motor and manual transmission. This, of course, is just ‘on paper’ view, as I’ve no idea how short your drive is, how sharp the bend is, or how expert you are in balancing a vehicle’s clutch and throttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 The figures I have show the 2.3 150 produces 350 Nm torque at 1500rpm while the 3L produces 400 at 1400. I couldn't find the torque curves but if the gear ratios are the same the 3L should be quite a bit easier to reverse up a steep slope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Thank you Derek and Muswell. We're currently looking at 6 to 6.4m PVCs and I'm very tempted by the 3.0 litre engine, not least because much of our touring will be to hilly and mountainous regions, as a lifelong hillwalker. The layout of our driveway is also a consideration. The 1 in 8 slope is "only" a 3 metre stretch from the kerb to edge of our property, the driveway then levels off to a bit less than 1 in 12, but is only 5 metres long straight back to a garage door. The frontage to the house to the side of the driveway is over 10 metres in width and still retaining the 5 metres depth, so quite adequate for parking a PVC on. As the driveway entrance is nearly 6 metres wide I don't see any real difficulty with reversing back at an angle and turning across the front of the house, other than the gradient. Traversing it at an angle will also slightly reduce the effect of the gradient of course. I think I'm going to hire a PVC for a weekend or so before committing myself to anything, just to ensure there are no issues, although I doubt I will be able to find a 3 litre hire van. I just don't think I could get on with a Comfortmatic though. I'd find it a bit frustrating to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I had a 3 litre Comfortmatic panel van and the performance of engine and box was phenomenal. I had to reverse into my wide drive down a steep slope and of course reverse out. I had no problems whatsoever; no judder and the box behaved well. The 3 litre engine on hills is a joy. I had the 160bhp version so the newer version should be even better. I shudder when posters on here discuss having a 130bhp engine on a 4250kgs van and also tow a car. That is ludicrous and it is amazing how manufacturers can contemplate supplying heavy vans with such a small engine. I felt that even my previous 2006 Transit was underpowered so I would go for the 3 litre every time even on a panel van. That may be partly due to the fact I drive a powerful car but having power on tap is essential for me. Although fuel consumption was only around 30mpg I did push mine so a lighter right foot would return a better result. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Mike88 - 2015-02-14 1:02 PM having power on tap is essential for me. Good luck! It makes driving so much more relaxed, even just entering a busy roundabout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 ....one thing to be wary of is weight. There have been reports in the past of 3.0 litre engined conversions being (ex-converter and without contents) very close to the maximum front axle weight. Whatever the truth in that, according to Fiat data the 3.0 litre engine van weighs 80kg more than a 2.3 litre (130/150) version of similar configuration (and most of that extra weight will be on the front). In addition to the axle loading implications (I wouldn't consider it a decent option on anything but the "Maxi" base, which has a significantly higher max front axle rating), the 80 kg will eat into the overall payload, which, on many conversions with decent base vehicle specifications (air-con, air-bag etc.) is beginning to look rather marginal once any additions such as bike rack, awning, etc. are added. (The Comfortmatic on either engine will have a penalty of between 17 and 22kg - depending on where you take your figures from). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Muswell - 2015-02-14 9:41 AM The figures I have show the 2.3 150 produces 350 Nm torque at 1500rpm while the 3L produces 400 at 1400. I couldn't find the torque curves but if the gear ratios are the same the 3L should be quite a bit easier to reverse up a steep slope. Based on Fiat’s data, the ‘intermediate' gear ratios for X290 vehicles with 2.3litre 130bhp and 150bhp motors with manual transmissions are the same, but the final-drive ratio differs according to whether or not a ‘MAXI or ‘non-MAXI’ chassis is involved. The intermediate ratios for X290 vehicles with 2.3litre 130bhp and 150bhp motors and ComforttMatic transmission are completely different to the manual-transmission ratios and the intermediate ratios for 4th, 5th and 6th gear for MAXI chassis ComfortMatic versions differ from those used for non-MAXI chassis. The final-drive ratio also differs according to whether or not the chassis is ‘MAXI or ‘non-MAXI' . For X290 vehicles with the 3.0litre 180bhp motor, manual or ComfortMatic transmission and a non-MAXI chassis, the intermediate ratios and final-drive ratio are the same as those used with 2.3litre motors and ComfortMatic transmission and a non-MAXI chassis. When a MAXI-chassis is involved the intermediate ratios (for manual or ComfortMatic transmissions) are the same as those used with 2.3litre motors with ComfortMatic and a MAXI chassis, but a lower final-drive ratio is employed. And, of course, differences in wheel and tyre sizes will impact on the ‘overall’ gear ratios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Deneb - 2015-02-14 12:29 PM Thank you Derek and Muswell. We're currently looking at 6 to 6.4m PVCs and I'm very tempted by the 3.0 litre engine, not least because much of our touring will be to hilly and mountainous regions, as a lifelong hillwalker. The layout of our driveway is also a consideration. The 1 in 8 slope is "only" a 3 metre stretch from the kerb to edge of our property, the driveway then levels off to a bit less than 1 in 12, but is only 5 metres long straight back to a garage door. The frontage to the house to the side of the driveway is over 10 metres in width and still retaining the 5 metres depth, so quite adequate for parking a PVC on. As the driveway entrance is nearly 6 metres wide I don't see any real difficulty with reversing back at an angle and turning across the front of the house, other than the gradient. Traversing it at an angle will also slightly reduce the effect of the gradient of course. I think I'm going to hire a PVC for a weekend or so before committing myself to anything, just to ensure there are no issues, although I doubt I will be able to find a 3 litre hire van. I just don't think I could get on with a Comfortmatic though. I'd find it a bit frustrating to be honest. Given the situation you describe, I wonder if you've considered a Mercedes Sprinter based PVC. The current Sprinter automatic uses a torque converter with lock-up, in place of the conventional clutch/dual mass flywheel. So, you can creep it upslope under full control with no wear to parts (though it may overheat the hydraulic fluid if abused). The lock-up comes into play as road speed rises relative to the gear engaged, to prevent the energy losses and increased fuel consumption traditionally associated with "automatics". It will inevitably cost more (badge plus auto option, possibly plus choice of engine and factory options, etc! :-)) but it should alleviate all worries associated with fried clutches! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 You can worry about rust instead :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I'll reserve judgement on the rust :-D I'm aware of the reputation, but most of the rusty Sprinters I have seen, have all had very hard lives and starship mileages with commercial fleets. The fact that they are the most stolen light commercial vehicle and relatively easy to steal without the key kind of puts me off though, as well as being considerably narrower at roof level than the Sevel vans, so less volume inside. Thanks for all your replies though, very helpful :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 According to the Hymer B Class spec, the 3l adds 50kg to the overall weight and a total of 90kg when used with the maxi chassis. Comfortmatic weighs in at 17 kg. My van with 2.3l & Comfortmatic has a front load of 1550kg in day to day running trim. Hymer upgrade the front suspension to 2000kgs from 1850, to compensate for the heavy front end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I have been following the various threads on the Comfortmatic with interest as we are looking at buying a motorhome later this year and for a number of reasons have to have an automatic gearbox. We currently have a caravan and use a Volvo V70 as a tug with the Geartronic box which is a dream to drive. We do recognise that we are not going to have the same flexibility with a motorhome unless we purchase the Mercedes with 7 speed box, but as has been mentioned not only is it very expensive but also the PVC conversions are to our mind narrow gutted. Hymers and other A class models are way above our budget. The Fiat at least has the ability (just) to allow for some cross vehicle furnishings. As for the rust comment, I am aware that Mercedes do not rust proof their vans as much as possibly Fiat (which is a bit of a surprise) but as also has been mentioned many Mercs have very hard lives and do seem to survive. It is not so long ago that Fiat were in the naughty corner for rust. Therefore I feel that rust is an issue that should not really present itself in a motorhome unless one is very unlucky. What does interest me is the fact that the new engines from Fiat have been made a bit more efficient and the 150 bhp engine is now offered as s erious contender with the Comfortmatic. Looking at motorhomes up to the 3.5 ton bracket this engine appears man enough to do the job, especially if you avoid a huge luton overcab, and one can save a good couple of grand by not specifying the 3litres 180 version. Can anyone either confirm or deny that assumption? As it currently stands, getting the Comfortmatic will add about £2000+ to the cost of the vehicle so avoiding the even higher price of the 3 litres is something to look at. Plus i guess fuel consumption will be slightly better, provided one does not have the vehicle at 3.4999999 tonnes all the time. Memo to wife called for? It is slightly irritating that the model we are looking at seriously can be bought with a Ford base at a price of £7000 less than the equivalent Fiat with Comfortmatic. But, as we have no choice we have to grin and bear it. So all experiences of the new X290 with Comfortmatic will be appreciated, at least by me. By the way, we are 'cheating'. We are keeping the caravan but using it as a holiday apartment in the Med. Getting best of both worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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