Marker lights on 7m long pilote galaxy MX88

[hideyspidey]

HI

We have been advised that we need to put marker lights on our motorhome because of its size and weight.

We are having a fer jobs done next week, ( installing trio gas pro alarm, new stereo, ) is this something we could get theme to do or is it an auto electrician job?

How do you get marker lights to come on and not flatten your battery. Is it wired to leisure battery? We cant put side lights on unless key in ignition. We dont want to flatten battery. It does look like there are already marker lights on it.

Thanks for all your help last week

[markh1]

Hi

 

You do need marker lights as you are over 6m long, they are usually wired to the leisure battery and its fusebox to avoid the can bus system on the vehicle

 

Google search for:

 

IVA-inspection-manual-vehicle-categories-n2-and-n3-hgvs.pdf

 

the go to :Section 22, page 110 in the pdf it tells you about positioning them

[pepe63xnotuse]

Hi again Hidey'..

 

If it's still for just whilst being parked up overnight?..then do we know if it's the exiting/installed lights that need to be lit?..or can you, as was mentioned on the "other" thread, just use some standalone battery powered led lights?.....

 

I would think that powering your existing lights would soon flatten your vehicle battery..

(although I suppose a decent battery set-up, with maybe a solar panel to keep 'em topped up, may be okay to power some front & rear led marker lights...maybe?)

 

So presumably you've been unable to move it (around the back?) then...? :-S

[Robinhood]

...I'd expect your 'van to have been factory supplied with the required marker lamps.

 

All the pictures I can find of similar vehicles show a set of (low) orange side markers, and a (rear) high-level marker on each side.

 

They should be illuminated when side (and main) lights are in use - if they are fitted but not illuminated then you potentially have a wiring issue.

 

At 1996, your vehicle won't be canbus, and the markers will simply be an addition to the sidelight circuit, powered from the vehicle battery.

 

As an extra tip - I strongly suspect you can use your sidelights (as parking lights) without the key in the ignition by pressing the little arced detent on the ignition switch whilst turning the key in the opposite direction to that you would use for starting, and then removing the key whilst in that 'backwards' position.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Robinhood - 2015-03-16 10:00 AM..............As an extra tip - I strongly suspect you can use your sidelights (as parking lights) without the key in the ignition by pressing the little arced detent on the ignition switch whilst turning the key in the opposite direction to that you would use for starting, and then removing the key whilst in that 'backwards' position.

And, if that proves the case, the side markers should not illuminate along with the front and rear sidelights.

 

One other thing that may be worth trying is to operate the right turn indicator stalk. You'll need to experiment a bit, but you may find that doing this before doing as Robin suggests above also isolates the left hand sidelights, leaving only the offside front sidelight and offside rear light illuminated. Can't remember the sequence, and it may be omitted from RHD chassis, but it is/was fairly common on LHD vehicles. Either the indicator stalk is operated before turning off the ignition, or just after it is turned off, or possibly the sidelights have first to have been switched on before the ignition is turned off, and then the indicator stalk operated - or variations on that theme. If you can find the trick, just two bulbs are up instead of four.

 

However, you will need to remember to cancel and re-set this each day, to avoid having the lamps on 24/7. This was an old technology trick, before vehicle electronics were commonplace, and I've never needed to try it for parking, but I seem to remember thinking the lights had failed on one side of one of our vehicles when checking them, until I noticed the indicator stalk had got knocked somewhere along the line.

[Robinhood]

....I'm fairly sure a 1996 vehicle will have the ignition switch arrangement for the parking lights (and whether the marker lights will also illuminate will depend on the factory wiring).

 

The picture below is from the later Ducato manual, but is the same basic arrangement as I would expect.

 

[hideyspidey]

Thanks you everyone, we cant afford a solar panel yet but will look at other options.

We have moved her round the back but the police came back yesterday to insist about the marker lights.

Would it be possible to have a timer.

And what are the regulations around having markers

Thanks

[Brian Kirby]

This is a bit puzzling. The police do not seem to be being clear what it is that they think is deficient in the lighting of your vehicle, or under what conditions. The requirement is set out the The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989, see here: http://tinyurl.com/bbdahrz

 

The preamble contains the necessary definitions, among which are:

 

“End-outline marker lamp. A lamp fitted near the outer edge of a vehicle in addition to the front and rear position lamps to indicate the presence of a wide vehicle.

 

Side marker lamp. A lamp fitted to the side of a vehicle or its load and used to render the vehicle more visible to other road users.

 

Front position lamp. A lamp used to indicate the presence and width of a vehicle when viewed from the front.

 

Rear position lamp. A lamp used to indicate the presence and width of a vehicle when viewed from the rear.”

 

So far, so obvious, perhaps.

 

The regulations then go on to describe what is actually required, as follows:

 

“Requirements about the use of front and rear position lamps, rear registration plate lamps, side marker lamps and end-outline marker lamps

 

24.—(1) Save as provided in paragraphs (5) and (9), no person shall–

 

(a) use, or cause or permit to be used, on a road any vehicle which is in motion– .

(i) between sunset and sunrise, or,

(ii) in seriously reduced visibility between sunrise and sunset; or,

 

(b) allow to remain at rest, or cause or permit to be allowed to remain at rest, on a road any vehicle between sunset and sunrise.

 

unless every front position lamp, rear position lamp, rear registration plate lamp, side marker lamp and end-outline marker lamp with which the vehicle is required by these Regulations to be fitted is kept lit and unobscured.

 

(2) Save as provided in paragraphs (5) and (9), where a solo motor bicycle is not fitted with a front position lamp, no person shall use it, or cause or permit it to be used, on a road (other than when it is parked) between sunset and sunrise or in seriously reduced visibility between sunrise and sunset, unless a headlamp is kept lit and unobscured.

 

(3) Save as provided in paragraphs (5) and (9), no person shall allow to remain parked, or cause or permit to be allowed to remain parked between sunset and sunrise –

 

(a) a motor bicycle combination which is required to be fitted only with a front position lamp on the sidecar; or,

 

(b) a trailer to the front of which no other vehicle is attached and which is not required to be fitted with front position lamps,

 

unless a pair of front position lamps is fitted and kept lit and unobscured.

 

(4) Save as provided in paragraphs (5) and (9), no person shall allow to remain parked, or cause or permit to be allowed to remain parked between sunset and sunrise a solo motor bicycle which is not required to be fitted with a front position lamp, unless a front position lamp is fitted and kept lit and unobscured.

 

(5) Paragraphs (1), (2), (3) and (4) shall not apply in respect of a vehicle of a class specified in paragraph (7) which is parked on a road on which a speed limit of 30 mph or less is in force and the vehicle is parked –

 

(a) in a parking place for which provision is made under section 6, or which is authorised under section 32 or designated under section 45 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, or which is set apart as a parking place under some other enactment or instrument and the vehicle is parked in a manner which does not contravene the provision of any enactment or instrument relating to the parking place; or,

 

(b) in a lay-by– .

(i) the limits of which are indicated by a traffic sign consisting of the road marking shown in diagram 1010 in Schedule 2 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 1981(18); or,

(ii) the surface of which is of a colour or texture which is different from that of the part of the carriageway of the road used primarily by through traffic; or,

(iii) the limits of which are indicated by a continuous strip of surface of a different colour or texture from that of the surface of the remainder of the carriageway of the road; or,

 

© elsewhere than in such a parking place or lay-by if– .

(i) the vehicle is parked in one of the circumstances described in paragraph (8); and

(ii) no part of the vehicle is less than 10 m from the junction of any part of the carriageway of any road with the carriageway of the road on which it is parked whether that junction is on the same side of the road as that on which the vehicle is parked or not.

 

(6) Sub-paragraph (5)©(ii) shall be construed in accordance with the diagram in Schedule 22.

 

(7) The classes of vehicle referred to in paragraph (5) are–

 

(a) a motor vehicle being a goods vehicle the unladen weight of which does not exceed 1525 kg;

 

(b) a passenger vehicle other than a bus;

 

© an invalid carriage; and

 

(d) a motor cycle or a pedal cycle in either case with or without a sidecar;

not being–

(i) a vehicle to which a trailer is attached;

(ii) a vehicle which is required to be fitted with lamps by regulation 21; or,

(iii) a vehicle carrying a load, if the load is required to be fitted with lamps by regulation 21.

 

(8) The circumstances referred to in paragraph (5)© are that –

 

(a) the vehicle is parked on a road on which the driving of vehicles otherwise than in one direction is prohibited at all times and its left or near side is as close as may be and parallel to the left-hand edge of the carriageway or its right or off side is as close as may be and parallel to the right-hand edge of the carriageway; or,

 

(b) the vehicle is parked on a road on which such a prohibition does not exist and its left or near side is as close as may be and parallel to the edge of the carriageway.

 

(9) Paragraphs (1), (2), (3) and (4) do not apply in respect of –

 

(a) a solo motor bicycle or a pedal cycle being pushed along the left-hand edge of a carriageway;

 

(b) a pedal cycle waiting to proceed provided it is kept to the left-hand or near side edge of a carriageway; or,

 

© a vehicle which is parked in an area on part of a highway on which roadworks are being carried out and which is bounded by amber lamps and other traffic signs so as to prevent the presence of the vehicle, its load or equipment being a danger to persons using the road.”

 

So far as I can see, the relevant paragraph above is (5) which, providing the vehicle is a passenger vehicle as defined by para (7) (b) - which it seems to be - is parked within a 30MPH or lower limited area -which I assume it is -, and is parked in compliance with para (8) (b) - which is to say facing the correct way with its nearside as close as practical to the nearside kerb - it does not require any lighting at night.

 

The stipulation regarding vehicle weight in para (7) clearly refers only to goods vehicles, and the stipulation regarding all lights being required (which would require end outline and side marker lights, as well as position lights) in para (1) (b) clearly refers to vehicles that are at rest, but not parked.

 

The question then, is whether the police involved are misinterpreting your vehicle as being a commercial vehicle and not a private passenger vehicle which, being a motor caravan within the taxation classes of PLG or PHG, is where I think it should be classified.

 

You may wish to check your V5C registration document to see what it says at D5, “body type” - where it should state “motor caravan” - and at [X] - where it should state “private/light goods (PLG)”, or “private/HGV.

 

If either of these descriptions is wrong, and the police have been checking its status via the DVLA database, they could well have been led to the wrong conclusions. If so, you’ll need to get the V5C corrected.

 

If not, you will have diplomatically to lead the police through the above maze by gently asking them how, exactly, they get to a position where they think the vehicle requires lighting at night when correctly parked in your street. Please do follow the link above to check the above with the actual regulations, but I'm pretty clear until corrected that my conclusion is reasonable and your van doesn't require lights, any more than any other private passenger vehicle parked in your street does.

[hideyspidey]

Brian, thank you. Thats just about what we thought. The police did say that they had to look it all up as they weren't sure.

I really appreciate your in depth reply. Thank you very much again.

Luckily we are friendly with the policeman who visits so a friendly chat and a cup of tea should sort it out. Our motorhome has now been moved to our private parking space at the rear of the house and is not causing any issues in the street.

Are there any other rules and regulations to be aware of with a 23ft motorhome.

 

 

[Robinhood]

...re Brian's post.

 

Much will depend on whether a Motorcaravan is considered as being a goods or passenger vehicle for the purposes of the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations. If it is the latter, then the weight becomes irrelevant.

 

As I understand it, such a vehicle should be/is considered as being in category M:

 

Category M: Motor vehicles with at least four wheels designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers.

 

(and more specifically, most will be in class M1, having less than 8 seats).

 

My own interpretation is that this also is the categorisation that should apply for the purposes of the RVLR, (as it most certainly does explicitly apply in other areas of legislation) but, of course, the waters are muddied by Motorcaravans being taxed (largely for convenience) in PLG or PHG (i.e. Goods) taxation classes.

 

If the Police were to pursue the matter, I'd be looking (politely) for explicit clarification, but I wouldn't fancy being a test case. ;-)

 

 

BTW, I would interpret "parked" as being a special (subset) case of "at rest", so any wording applicable to "at rest" would apply when parked.

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Yes, category M1 is where European directive 70/156 places them. How PHGV and PLG is to be interpreted seems to be governed by the date of first registration. If registered before 1/3/01, to be classed PLG their revenue weight must not exceed 3,500kg, and they must not be used for trade or business. If registered later, they must not be either Petrol Cars, Diesel Cars, Alternative Fuel Cars, Light Goods Vehicles, Euro 4 Light Goods Vehicles or Euro 5 Light Goods Vehicles. All reasonably clear - ish! :-)

 

The killer is PHGV, which are simply "Goods vehicles, with a revenue weight in excess of 3,500kg, used privately". An odd definition within which to capture motor caravans!

 

I think it reasonable to assume that where lighting is concerned, the same category is intended as for PLG, because both (should) fall within M1. Logically (but is this logical?), since so many motorhome models can be optionally plated to either 3,500kg MAM, or heavier, with there being no other difference to the vehicle, trying to make those that fall into the PHGV category comply with different lighting regulations to those in PLG would seem practically unworkable.

 

Parked or at rest? Well both terms are used, so I would suppose there is intended to be a distinction between their meanings, at least to the extent they are not interchangeable. Generally, a parked vehicle would be understood by the laity to mean one that is stationary and unoccupied, and one that is stationary and occupied would be understood to be waiting. Not sure how "at rest" should be interpreted, since neither "parked" nor "at rest" is included in the definitions. I therefore wonder if it is intended, from the context of its use, to apply when a vehicle is stationary in a place other than those listed in para 5 of the regulations, so therefore needs to be fully lit.

 

Having been warned on two occasions that the veicle should be lit, I think I'd be inclined to nip into the local police station (if you can find one that is open! :-)), and ask if they could please explain why a parked motor caravan might need to be lit at night when other private vehicles don't. Would probably need some diplomacy, but might head off a ticket if the vehicle were found unlit at night by the same policeman on some future occasion. Then, the onus would fall more upon the OP to show why it didn't need to be lit, rather than for the police to explain why they think it did.

 

These definitions are not sparklingly clear, as any search for a legal definition of "parked" quickly illustrates. Add the potential for confusion as to what category of vehicle a motorhome falls into for the purposes of the regulations, and an army of barristers could keep going for, well, years, it seems to me. So, definitely don't volunteer to provide the test case!

[Robinhood]

...interpretation is, as you say, a minefield.

 

Since the wording majors on the term "in motion" (rather than "driven"), then it must also cover the circumstance where a vehicle needs to be lit, but is still being "driven" - i.e. standing at traffic lights. I think "at rest" covers this.

 

Parked implies something more than "at rest", but the overriding "at rest" terms will apply except where a "parking" exception is granted.

 

...and that, m'lud, concludes the case for the defence. ;-)