Guest pelmetman Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Brian Kirby - 2015-04-03 5:56 PM Generally, when a van is built, the floor is laid over the bare chassis. Next the furniture is placed onto the floor, and the fridge, toilet, cooker etc fitted to the furniture, then the external walls and cab door fairings are added, followed by the rear wall, over-cab fairing, and finally roof. From what I can see in the pics, I really, really, think the only way to re-build that supporting frame will be to fully expose what is there, and I strongly suspect that can't be achieved adequately with the external skin still in situ. It first has to be "unmade", before it can be re-made. I seem to recall watching a video sometime back, where accident damage to a caravan side was repaired by gluing another sheet of ally to the existing damaged panel, might be an option rather than scrapping the camper 8-) ................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Peter James - 2015-04-03 4:49 PM pelmetman - 2015-04-03 7:38 AM Will85 - 2015-04-02 11:41 AM As an example some alloy mixtures are likened to a large currant cake. Corrosion will migrate from one currant to the next and does not stop until all currants and the immediate areas are removed. Even stainless steel will corrode depending on its iron content. If a stainless steel item has been welded its molecular distribution will be changed resulting in serious corrosion at the joint. Will Makes you wonder whether motorhome builders should fit sacrificial anodes like boat builders? :-S...... I've found a thread you may find more useful ;) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11512160/Eight-tricks-to-make-you-appear-more-intelligent.html You must be confusing me with someone else Peter ;-) ................ I've never tried to appear more intelligent? :-S............ Although some folk on here may make me appear so (lol) .............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Peter James - 2015-04-03 9:13 PM Is that going to withstand wind forces and the vibration and torsional forces driving over uneven surfaces? If done properly, I can't see any reason why not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Pepe, You suggest if done properly. What is proper? This would be a major re-skinning job here and hardly a practical proposition for the casual DIY person, its a factory engineering job. Yes it could be done but you will need some very good engineering craftsmen friends to help. Remember well ... once started there is NO going back ! When approaching any task such as this the repairer or designer has to have the ability to 'see' the finished article before starting. There is no other way ! Alloy sheets come in sizes 6x3 and 8x4 ft. The original thickness would possibly be 1mm. To clad on top of the existing its a guess as to what would be best. 2mm is a heavy sheet but unless this is considered every rivet or screw point will cause a ripple in the panel. A lot of riveting or fixing would be need all over to prevent the panel(s) rumbling. I could continue making comments all day. There are major difficulties in doing anything perfect here. As an aside comment apart from my aircraft employment, many years were spent re-panelling cars and vans, panel beating, rolling and shaping body panels etc. I've done it all. Its a gift and if you haven't got it then please don't try. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I doubt anyone needs two of me. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 pelmetman - 2015-04-03 9:52 PM..................I seem to recall watching a video sometime back, where accident damage to a caravan side was repaired by gluing another sheet of ally to the existing damaged panel, might be an option rather than scrapping the camper 8-) ................. I've seen something similar, Dave, but there first has to be a frame to support the aluminium skin! Also, it is not an easy job, and would definitely require the van to be indoors. It can be done professionally, but it is not cheap. Paul could take that route, but would be wise to get quotes beforehand, including a valuation on the van. My suspicion is that, if the repair cost is added to the purchase price, the combined cost would considerably exceed the re-sale value of the van if restored to its full value. It might be worth it if the rest of the bodywork, including the cab, is in good condition, and if it is mechanically in good condition. But, the state of the bodywork suggests neglect by a previous owner, so how well have the mechanicals been maintained? The point I was trying to make is that I don't think the frame can be properly repaired, even by Paul, with the original skin still in place. It's all about access, and the way the outer skin prevents access to critical parts. It is a real bummer for Paul. It may be possible to bodge it back together, as has been suggested, with a mix of glorified pot menders, patches, angle brackets etc. but that will still take time and money, and the end result seems unlikely to be any better than a temporary stay of execution, and would have minimal sale value as a motorhome. The biggest problem, from what I can see, is that the rotting wood has corroded the aluminium. So, in places it has developed holes, and in other places it will merely have thinned the aluminium, but not quite enough to have eaten through it. Elsewhere, the aluminium will be untouched. It is clear where the aluminium has been attacked - along the line of the rotting timber framework. What will be difficult to identify, is where the sheet is relatively sound, and where it is more severely decayed. The bits that are paper thin will be easy, you will be able to stick your finger through them (but don't do this at home! :-)). So, the only remedy short of completely re-skinning it, would be to patch all along the lines of the rotten framing which, from what we have seen to date, looks pretty extensive. It also looks as though the aluminium is not flat sheet, but that mix of stippled and "plank" effect that was popular with continental builders in the '90s. Not easy to patch subtly. There are probably better solutions that I can't envisage, but Paul is doing all this in the open. It seems like the equivalent of re-building a vintage car. First get it in the dry. Then dismantle it. Then repair all damage and re-assemble it. Then re-skin it. Big shed, good light, lots of time (months, not weeks), and a good deal of help along the way. But in the open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Will85 - 2015-04-04 11:37 AM a) ... once started there is NO going back ! b)Alloy sheets come in sizes 6x3 and 8x4 ft. The original thickness would possibly be 1mm. c) I've done it all.....Its a gift and if you haven't got it then please don't try..... Will a) By the looks of the OP's photos, he has already started! b) I know, I was a commercial vehicle & coach builder. c)..Yes...it has been noticed......so has your modesty... (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Will85 - 2015-04-04 11:37 AM Pepe, You suggest if done properly. What is proper? ..................Will I think that is what we are all struggling with, Will. I think we all feel for Paul, and are reluctant to accept that he may, just, have made a very expensive mistake. The perfectionists among us are saying he has, and his best course will be to cut his losses and walk away. No pleasure in that, just the facts as we see it. The pragmatists are saying he could effect a less than perfect repair, and probably make the van at least usable - which at present it plainly isn't. Only Paul can decide which way to go. To re-skin the van he would need to obtain the much larger aly sheets that are available for commercial purposes - and he won't be able to handle those on his own. Your aircraft experience is probably a bit OTT - the only vans that are made to anywhere near those standards are the legendary Airstreams! :-) The skins of coachbuilt vans of Paul's vintage were generally glued and screwed, using fairly basic techniques. The dodgy bits were bodged with mastic, and the result concealed with cover strips - usefully screwed into the timber frame through the aly skin. So skills, yes, but not on aircraft-building lines. Most of the commercial re-skinning (usually for minor accident damage) is done by using adhesives to stick the new skin to the old - usually holding the new in place with the aid of a giant, inflated, air mattress while the adhesive cures . Again, not really something for DIY. More extensive repairs can involve making, or obtaining, replacement wall panels. But, only for very new vans where the parts are available, and the write-off cost exceeds the repair cost. But, Paul's problem, as we have all noted, extends to at least the roof, one side wall, and the rear wall, and involves not only the aluminium skin, but also the timber frame that is supposed to support it. As you have said, repairing that so that is is again rigid, reasonably strong, and reliably weatherproof, would be a huge task. Trying to do so in the open, in UK, looks to me unfeasible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat Ducato Posted April 4, 2015 Author Share Posted April 4, 2015 Wow what a load of over thought too much time on there hands I expect and negative reviews from people telling me it can't be fixed and needs to be scrapped to other people telling me I can bodge it using menders, paste, angle brackets etc. I am a big believer in everything can be fixed and repaired obviously within reason and budget. This motorhome is mechanically sound, all the fittings and upholstery is in superb condition, the underside of this van is solid and rust free apart from the frame that holds the spare wheel. About 85% of the Aluminium roof now cleaner with an Aluminium cleaner looks untouched, surely not foil thin lol, Only the last quarter of the vans timbers construction as been rotted. I bought the van with loads of previous service history and paperwork up and a current MOT, its only done 96000km about 60000 miles. Up until recently it was well looked after, I bought the van for £5000 I plan to spend around £1000 on repairs. The elderly lady I bought it from sold it to be as her husband had sadly passed away, and it had been left sitting there. What and for this I should remove and re skin the Brian Kirby - 2015-04-04 11:51 AM pelmetman - 2015-04-03 9:52 PM..................I seem to recall watching a video sometime back, where accident damage to a caravan side was repaired by gluing another sheet of ally to the existing damaged panel, might be an option rather than scrapping the camper 8-) ................. I've seen something similar, Dave, but there first has to be a frame to support the aluminium skin! Also, it is not an easy job, and would definitely require the van to be indoors. It can be done professionally, but it is not cheap. Paul could take that route, but would be wise to get quotes beforehand, including a valuation on the van. My suspicion is that, if the repair cost is added to the purchase price, the combined cost would considerably exceed the re-sale value of the van if restored to its full value. It might be worth it if the rest of the bodywork, including the cab, is in good condition, and if it is mechanically in good condition. But, the state of the bodywork suggests neglect by a previous owner, so how well have the mechanicals been maintained? The point I was trying to make is that I don't think the frame can be properly repaired, even by Paul, with the original skin still in place. It's all about access, and the way the outer skin prevents access to critical parts. It is a real bummer for Paul. It may be possible to bodge it back together, as has been suggested, with a mix of glorified pot menders, patches, angle brackets etc. but that will still take time and money, and the end result seems unlikely to be any better than a temporary stay of execution, and would have minimal sale value as a motorhome. The biggest problem, from what I can see, is that the rotting wood has corroded the aluminium. So, in places it has developed holes, and in other places it will merely have thinned the aluminium, but not quite enough to have eaten through it. Elsewhere, the aluminium will be untouched. It is clear where the aluminium has been attacked - along the line of the rotting timber framework. What will be difficult to identify, is where the sheet is relatively sound, and where it is more severely decayed. The bits that are paper thin will be easy, you will be able to stick your finger through them (but don't do this at home! :-)). So, the only remedy short of completely re-skinning it, would be to patch all along the lines of the rotten framing which, from what we have seen to date, looks pretty extensive. It also looks as though the aluminium is not flat sheet, but that mix of stippled and "plank" effect that was popular with continental builders in the '90s. Not easy to patch subtly. There are probably better solutions that I can't envisage, but Paul is doing all this in the open. It seems like the equivalent of re-building a vintage car. First get it in the dry. Then dismantle it. Then repair all damage and re-assemble it. Then re-skin it. Big shed, good light, lots of time (months, not weeks), and a good deal of help along the way. But in the open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat Ducato Posted April 4, 2015 Author Share Posted April 4, 2015 the whole roof, as well as the side panels. And you are all convinced that this is the only option. I disagree I think there is always more than way to tackle a job, learned this working all over Britain on sites and shop fitting, you will find your way of doing stuff is not always the way of others and vice versa. I am convinced that I can rebuild this motorhome so a very high standard, whilst outside under a tarpaulin cover without replacing the entire roof and wall panels. It will not be a bodge up job I will be using all high quality materials, treating all the corroded Aluminium before reinforcing the corroded areas with either fiberglass resin or new bonded Aluminium sheeting. But I do thank you all for your very interesting comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Fiat Ducato - 2015-04-04 1:23 PM people telling me it can't be fixed Nobody has told you it can't be fixed. Its a question of whether its going to be worth the time and cost of doing so. We try to help by giving our different opinions but only you can know what its worth to you. I think its beyond economic repair and feel obliged to be honest about that and tell you so before you spend any more on it.. But I would be delighted if you prove me wrong, and wish you the best of luck.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Good on you and your thoughts Paul, the differences between us are that some of us have seen and put right exactly what you are looking at. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Fiat Ducato - 2015-04-04 1:33 PM ...I am convinced that I can rebuild this motorhome so a very high standard, whilst outside under a tarpaulin cover without replacing the entire roof and wall panels. I agree with you Paul... ..just forgive my earlier, clumsy, use of the term "bodge-up" ( :$ )... I was really just trying to say that a repair of this nature, doesn't necessarily need be "as new/as it left the factory", for it to achieve a neat, tidy and perfectly serviceable vehicle.. Good luck with it mate. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Peter James - 2015-04-04 2:08 PM Fiat Ducato - 2015-04-04 1:23 PM people telling me it can't be fixed Nobody has told you it can't be fixed. Its a question of whether its going to be worth the time and cost of doing so. We try to help by giving our different opinions but only you can know what its worth to you. I think its beyond economic repair and feel obliged to be honest about that and tell you so before you spend any more on it.. But I would be delighted if you prove me wrong, and wish you the best of luck.. I agree with everything Peter says above. You have the considerable advantage of being to see the whole van, and all we've been able to see are the photographs. You also know about the condition of the van otherwise which, from what you say, makes it worthwhile trying to repair it. I think it won't be easy, but you know that, and I know you have the skills to take it on. I'm a bit concerned about the van not being under cover, but if that is how it has to be, then that is settled. :-) I admire and respect your determination to do the job, and I hope you succeed with a vengeance - but I still think you're nuts! :-D At least the weather should be on your side from now on. Please keep us informed on your progress. It'll be encouraging to see the transformation taking place. BTW, "bodge" shouldn't be taken as an insult. I'm told that in Victorian times the "bodger" was the most valued and respected man on a building site. The others were one trade specialists so, when problems arose concerning trade interfaces that hadn't worked out, they summoned the bodger who, being multi-skilled, was able to sort out their problems. A good bodger was worth his weight in gold. Feeling better now? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I'm sure you are totally in control Paul 8-) Although I did warn you...... Wish you well with the project - you know how to contact me if you need to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat Ducato Posted April 4, 2015 Author Share Posted April 4, 2015 Thank you for all your comments I know I have one hell of a project on my hands and intend to document and take photographs throughout. I am quietly confident I have the knowledge, the skills and above all the patience to take on such a challenge. I am some what of a perfectionist and if the van was a newer one, worth more money, or I bought it from new that without doubt I would have it done professionally in a workshop or at least put it in a workshop or barn and then dismantle it, take the roof off back end apart and rebuild as it would have been done from new or (better) as we are now in 2015 not 1997 ;-) But means must, budget, already started the project outside and frightened to move it now. I will prevail, I am determined to do a top notch job, and the work I will carry out will be up to a very high standard. I wish there were somewhere local to me within 40 miles or so to be able to go and buy the sheets of vinyl paper covered caravan wall boards. Magnum do stock them charge £19.20 p&p and then say that they arrive damaged on all edges by TNT courier and can't be helped. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Hope you are able to take advantage of this weather to make some progress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat Ducato Posted July 24, 2015 Author Share Posted July 24, 2015 Not replied or updated for a while been, we moved into a new property that needed loads and loads of work doing, renovating. So my motorhome water ingress situation had to be put on the back burner for a while. I parked it, choked the wheels, took handbrake off, and covered with a tarpaulin sheet, high grade. Back on it now and gosh what a mess, what a disaster, keep finding more and more water ingress as I go along. Ripped out nearly the complete rear of the van, back wall was drenched too, removed section of the rear wall panel for investigation and it was soaked and wood was completely rotted through. I know exactly what as caused it and it makes me so MAD. I wish people would leave things if they don't know what they are doing or can't be bothered to even research it. One of the previous owners at some point installed a cycle rack and drilled through the panel and bolted it without adding any form of sealant, used normal steel screws. Also fitted some Aluminium extrusion along the back panel again not correctly screwed it into the timbers of the rear panel. Looks like by the metal eye hooks for fastening the bike too possibly. Looks like this van as lacked TLC over the years, lack of maintenance and yearly checks have resulted in 2 leaking rooflights, leaking roof vent for Truma fire/boiler, leaking mushroom vent in ceiling in bathroom. Leaking rear window again bathroom. Such a waste and shame, Motorhomes are not cheap to buy even second hand ones and this would have been bought new by someone once uon a time. Very sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat Ducato Posted July 24, 2015 Author Share Posted July 24, 2015 Does anyone know where I can buy the Aluminium sheeting for the rear panel, it as ridges/ripples down it and some texture coating on the outside, the inside also as a kind of coating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Sorry Paul I can't help with sourcing the sheeting, hopefully someone else can. Just wanted to say thank you for the update, and wish you the best of luck Your update is a helpful warning of what can happen when you don't fit things like a bike rack properly - even if the bike rack doesn't come off on the motorway like another one I heard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 A couple of potential suppliers are mentioned on this link http://www.talbotoc.com/where-can-i-buy-ribbed-aluminium-sheet-t1217.html You might also try asking this company for advice http://www.caravanbreakers.net/ I visited them (years ago) and remember they were rebuilding an old motorhome that had been involved in a massive rear-end shunt and had stocks of aluminium sheet. They might not be able to supply what you want, but they might be able to point you in the right direction. Dave Newell might also be able to advise as he rebuilt a motorhome a while back http://davenewell.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.