tringy Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Hi all, just about to buy a autotrail with a 150 upgrade .I was wondering what is the fiscal difference, is it electronically done or is there more to it than that.i just wondered. The upgrade was included in the deal. Regards tringy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 ...the main difference is in the turbo - a variable vane one in the 150, giving slightly better/more efficient boost. http://www.fiatprofessional.co.uk/uk/Models/Ducato_Goods_Transport#pageBlock02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tringy Posted April 28, 2015 Author Share Posted April 28, 2015 Thanks Robin Hood. Very interesting to see the link you sent me.will this give me better fuel consumption? Or what effect will it have overall. Thanks tringy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Very clever electrics direct the exhaust gases through the turbo at different parts of the vanes to give a wider spread of power. Like some cars have two turbo chargers, a big one and small one for lower speeds. But simpler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 In theory it should give you more pulling power. In reality I have driven 130 and 150 versions back to back loaded and unloaded and barely noticed any difference. In theory the combustion process is more efficient and the extra power should be accessible at a wide range of revs so the fuel economy could be better than the 130 but in reality variable geometry turbos tend to make fuel economy worse because it's hard to resist putting your foot down that bit harder in search of this elusive extra oomph. I have come to the conclusion that it would be better to buy 130hp versions and get the ECU remapped if the power is considered insufficient. A remapped 130hp to about 155hp is plausible and should be more economical in practice than the factory 150hp. If you are getting the upgrade for free and can restrict your right foot it should be no worse than the 130hp in terms of fuel and there may be a little more urge but so far i can't find it! If it's your money paying for the upgrade and you need more power, go for the 3.0 engine but don't pay more than £1500 for the privilege. The manufacturer's don't so why should you? Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 "I have come to the conclusion that it would be better to buy 130hp versions and get the ECU remapped if the power is considered insufficient. A remapped 130hp to about 155hp is plausible and should be more economical in practice than the factory 150hp." interesting Nick as was thinking along the same lines for my new van...Two questions if I may: Will warranty be affected with a remap? where can i get it done and cost (3 questions sorry!:D) Eddie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Yes, it will affect your warranty, it should also affect your insurance if you tell them. But it is not easily detectable. I had it done in Stoke but there are many offering it. Most re maps seem to be about £200 + VAT. Not to confused with a new chip in the ecu or a plug in module, both of which are about the same price and can be taken with you if you change vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Hi Re-Mapping, I have always wondered why?. Whilst it sounds good "on paper". It seems illogical to me that the Manufacturer would not supply the Optimum "Factory" mapping for the intended use?. The effect could be increased wear from running the engine within unsuitable parameters?. Reduced efficiency in a power band. Torque on the road at the "wrong" speed. All of which can lead to theoretical extra stress`. and the possibility of early failure. There will also be effect outside of the Engine envelope. Heat transfer / dissipation for one. the need for different cooling / inter-cooling devices, to cope with the new conditions. One other consideration, is the difference (if any) in the final drive ratio, and / or the tyre sizing. I think I would like to see, proper test results, before I went down that road. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 euroserv - 2015-04-28 5:35 PM In theory it should give you more pulling power. In reality I have driven 130 and 150 versions back to back loaded and unloaded and barely noticed any difference. In theory the combustion process is more efficient and the extra power should be accessible at a wide range of revs so the fuel economy could be better than the 130 but in reality variable geometry turbos tend to make fuel economy worse because it's hard to resist putting your foot down that bit harder in search of this elusive extra oomph. I have come to the conclusion that it would be better to buy 130hp versions and get the ECU remapped if the power is considered insufficient. A remapped 130hp to about 155hp is plausible and should be more economical in practice than the factory 150hp. If you are getting the upgrade for free and can restrict your right foot it should be no worse than the 130hp in terms of fuel and there may be a little more urge but so far i can't find it! If it's your money paying for the upgrade and you need more power, go for the 3.0 engine but don't pay more than £1500 for the privilege. The manufacturer's don't so why should you? Nick Hi Nick We have had our new AT Savannah with the 150 engine for a month now replacing our previous 2013 AT with the 130 engine. The difference to me is that the 150 is much more smoother on the power uptake, the pulling power is so much better too. Not sure about the fuel consumption yet as we have only done about 250 miles so far. The new MH is heavier than our previous one but we never thought the other was lacking in power or delivery, plus we used to get about 30 MPG, in fact before we got the new one we thought it was great. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 PeteH - 2015-04-28 7:51 PM Hi Re-Mapping, I have always wondered why?. Whilst it sounds good "on paper". It seems illogical to me that the Manufacturer would not supply the Optimum "Factory" mapping for the intended use?. The effect could be increased wear from running the engine within unsuitable parameters?. Reduced efficiency in a power band. Torque on the road at the "wrong" speed. All of which can lead to theoretical extra stress`. and the possibility of early failure. There will also be effect outside of the Engine envelope. Heat transfer / dissipation for one. the need for different cooling / inter-cooling devices, to cope with the new conditions. One other consideration, is the difference (if any) in the final drive ratio, and / or the tyre sizing. I think I would like to see, proper test results, before I went down that road. PeteSorry but you are wrong, for reasons I don't have the time to type reams of text explaining. Suffice it to say that for warranty purposes engine safety, Fiat install a general purpose fuel map to cope with differing atmospheric conditions across the entire world and driven by mums taking the kids to school and tear arse white van men. Google, engine re-mapping and you will become more enlightened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Tow a car behind our 2.3. 150 Ducato, it has a 4.25 tonne max load, it pulls very well uphills and accelerates well from standstill. Adequate if not as good as the 3 litre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Nick..4th question coming up! :-D Currently down in Spain, and my neighbour on site had his remapped and says van much smoother, better fuel consumption and no black smoke..he is convinced. He also had his EGR valve blanked off at same time, body still there but guts removed..what do you think please Eddie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 JudgeMental - 2015-04-29 8:07 AM He also had his EGR valve blanked off at same time, body still there but guts removed. What is the point of removing the guts from the EGR valve if he has blanked it off (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Exhaust gas recirculating valves (egr) are an artificial device to burn off dirty gases to improve the co2 figures. On older engines you could put a blanking plate across the pipe so a dirtier, but less restricted, engine. Later engines have an electronic system which is monitored by the ecu so will bring up an error code or even go into limp home mode if fiddled with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Last van was a 130, current one a 150, never felt any need for more power with the 130, but the 150 is quicker with a bit more grunt and smoother power delivery. One thing that was noticeable with the 130 was on steep hills with hairpins if the revs dropped and turbo boost fell it practically stalled and you had to go into panic mode to get the revs up and cogs down to get going again, doesn't happen with the 150. The 150 is more economical I put that down to the high gearing of the later models (both x250's). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 JudgeMental - 2015-04-29 8:07 AM Nick..4th question coming up! :-D Currently down in Spain, and my neighbour on site had his remapped and says van much smoother, better fuel consumption and no black smoke..he is convinced. He also had his EGR valve blanked off at same time, body still there but guts removed..what do you think please Eddie If EGR blanking brings up a warning light doesn't it fail the MOT unless there is a reasonable explanation? Leaving aside any qualms about nitrous oxide emissions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Peter James - 2015-04-29 8:36 AM JudgeMental - 2015-04-29 8:07 AM He also had his EGR valve blanked off at same time, body still there but guts removed. What is the point of removing the guts from the EGR valve if he has blanked it off (?) so to the casual eye it looks unaltered. MOT? 8-) they retune the ECU and emissions pass neighbour says 15% more power, 8 mpg improvement. but this could well be biased by "post purchase rationalisation" :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry1956 Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I have had a number of remaps over the years. Why I do this is to get more power out of the engine and the ability to get past the HGV, s on the motorway. Most motorhomes, camper vans return mid 20, s or low 30, s miles to the gallon. My current van is a fiat 150bhp globecar.now fiat states that mpg is around 31mpg.i drive fast and the van returns around 29 to 30mpg. I just cannot see that figure rising by over 30 percent. In fact I have never seen any increase in mpg on any remaps. At the moment I am thinking of getting the current van remapped as its a bit flat on long hills.but I just dont believe all these stories of increased mpg and know way by 30 percent.michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Ok. I will try to answer some of (mostly Eddie!) questions..... Firstly I should say that i have not had any remapping done yet so can't comment on the specific benefits of any particular system but if and when i do such a thing it will not be a re-programming of the existing ECU but would be a device that plugs in near the fuel rail. These are sold by various firms and similar claims are made. Typically there are economy or power versions or for a bit more money you can get 'variable' versions. I would not expect to improve fuel economy at the same time as increasing available power; at least not on a Euro5 engine. Euro3 and before that, this was possible. What i would hope for is better fuel economy than if i had opted for the variable turbo engine; these devices have been around for a very long time and without great care can be hazardous to your wallet. They are not as efficient as a twin turbo arrangement. If the rest of the engine and it's cooling system, intercoolers etc are the same for a 130hp and 150hp there is no reason to expect any issues with arriving at that amount of power by other means. The comments that have been made about the 150hp vehicles that folks have bought are encouraging. Perhaps i need to spend more time driving them and the difference might become less subtle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 peter - 2015-04-28 9:37 PM Hi. Most of the information available "online". concentrates on the Benefits of a Remap. Few go as far as explaining how the benefits are actually obtained. My concern is that I have learned over a lifetime "You don't get owt for nowt" . Somewhere there is a downside, and that it will be in the degradation of longevity?. due to Higher Thermal values which in turn lead to faster degradation of the materials of construction. Or More components working outside of their design parameters? (because of a nail the battle was lost) A Great deal is made of the "Capacity" of the engine to cope with increased Power and Torque. But I still remain less than convinced. Pete PeteH - 2015-04-28 7:51 PM Hi Re-Mapping, I have always wondered why?. Whilst it sounds good "on paper". It seems illogical to me that the Manufacturer would not supply the Optimum "Factory" mapping for the intended use?. The effect could be increased wear from running the engine within unsuitable parameters?. Reduced efficiency in a power band. Torque on the road at the "wrong" speed. All of which can lead to theoretical extra stress`. and the possibility of early failure. There will also be effect outside of the Engine envelope. Heat transfer / dissipation for one. the need for different cooling / inter-cooling devices, to cope with the new conditions. One other consideration, is the difference (if any) in the final drive ratio, and / or the tyre sizing. I think I would like to see, proper test results, before I went down that road. PeteSorry but you are wrong, for reasons I don't have the time to type reams of text explaining. Suffice it to say that for warranty purposes engine safety, Fiat install a general purpose fuel map to cope with differing atmospheric conditions across the entire world and driven by mums taking the kids to school and tear arse white van men. Google, engine re-mapping and you will become more enlightened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Carry on by all means....but someone's not listening to earlier common sense replies..… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Different engine but the principal is the same - I have run a Mondeo 2.2 TDCI with a plug-in 'chip' for around 120k now, improved economy [around 10%] and a discernable difference in torque when pulling in higher gears - whether I'd bother to do anything with my 130 Ducato, I'm not sure. Ironically, I have had to change 3 EGR valves [electronic, and you can't blank them off] over the 218k I've driven in this car since new. Although now I have a heavier van than the previous, I might possibly re-consider the plug-in option after my trip to France next week!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 JudgeMental - 2015-04-29 11:44 AM Peter James - 2015-04-29 8:36 AM JudgeMental - 2015-04-29 8:07 AM He also had his EGR valve blanked off at same time, body still there but guts removed. What is the point of removing the guts from the EGR valve if he has blanked it off (?) so to the casual eye it looks unaltered. MOT? 8-) they retune the ECU and emissions pass neighbour says 15% more power, 8 mpg improvement. but this could well be biased by "post purchase rationalisation" :-D If the EGR was faulty then blocking it off might have made the improvement - not the re map? How does 'removing the guts from the EGR valve' make it look unaltered to the 'casual eye' ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 The blanked of valve is still there Peter...yes it was faulty.retuning ECU and emmisions fine, he has had 2 MOT's since Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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