British "A" Class vans - are there any?

[candapack]

A response to another thread (thanks Lenny) got me thinking about this.

As far as I know, there are no British made A Class vans.

Why is that?

[Solwaybuggier]

I think RS still do one? Not the cheapest, though. You still see secondhand Autotrail Grande Frontiers for sale, and there was a Swift model too.

 

Maybe to do with relative size of UK market compared to German & French?

[Guest pelmetman]

I believe Autotrail was the last UK manufacturer to make one...........They're as rare as UK aires ;-) ........

 

Edit..........Forgot about RS :D ............

[Derek Uzzell]

Swift produced the “Bel Air” model for a while, as did Auto-Trail with their “Grande Frontier”. Auto-Sleepers once marketed the “Luxor” range (essentially rebadged UK-spec Mirages). The “Crystal” design (from a boat-buiding specialist) was a brave and innovative effort, but only a few were made. RS motorhomes are - to the best of my knowledge - the only current UK A-class manufacturer

 

http://www.rsmotorhomes.com

 

The problem is not so much building an A-class motorhome, but being able to market the vehicle at a competitive price and with an attractive specification and a build-quality that buyers will accept. There’s a much bigger up-front development cost for an A-class model than for a ‘coachbuilt’ motorcaravan (which is basically a builder’s truck cab+chassis with a caravan glued on) and foreign manufacturers have many years of A-class production experience and/or are large enough companies to be prepared to fund the development costs. Owners of Auto-Trail’s “Grande Frontier” reported build-quality problems

 

http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/53-autotrail-motorhomes/45730-autotrail-grand-frontier.html

 

which did nothing to encourage people to buy the model. After all, why would anyone fork out loads of money for a new Grande Frontier with an iffy reputation when one could choose instead an A-class model from a well-established manufacturer like Hymer, Frankia, Rapido, Le Voyageur, Pilote etc, etc?

[Brock]

Elddis did an A-class. There is an Elddis 300 Special 1989 for sale at £4,995 at Canterbury Caravan Sales, Kent.

[Derek Uzzell]

I’d forgotten about the 1980’s Elddis “Autoking” models that ranged from fairly compact to pretty big. There’s a tandem rear-axle version for sale here:

 

http://www.useddudley.co.uk/ReportSelectUsedAdPhoto2?used_ad_id=23020464&position=1&hb=10

 

In the 1990s and very early 2000s A-class motorhomes were being made under the “Machzone” name and were marketed via Glenns Motorhomes. There are couple of examples here

 

http://www.glennsleisurevehicles.co.uk/a-class-motorhomes.php

[Rayjsj]

I wonder why the major UK manufacurers don't market a 'Top of their Range' A-Class ? they have the capacity and certainly the 'know how'. They seem content to allow the Continentals to take any A-Class customers from them. RS excluded of course. Mystery to me. And I wonder why Autotrail dropped the 'Grande Frontier' ?? the very few I have seen, looked very good, on a heavy weight twin rear Wheeled Mercedes Chassis, like a 416, any 'quality teething troubles' could have been ironed out, i am sure. another mystery. Ray

[Keithl]

Rayjsj - 2015-05-02 3:19 PM

 

And I wonder why Autotrail dropped the 'Grande Frontier' ?? the very few I have seen, looked very good, on a heavy weight twin rear Axled Mercedes Chassis, like a 416, any 'teething troubles' could have been ironed out, i am sure. another mystery. Ray

 

Most probably because Mercedes bought out the next generation Sprinter and AT would have had to start all over again with design for the new chassis. And also AT only ever built a handful of coachbuilt MH's on the later chassis before going exclusively to F!at, a bed move in my books :-(

 

Keith.

[Brian Kirby]

Rayjsj - 2015-05-02 3:19 PM

 

I wonder why the major UK manufacurers don't market a 'Top of their Range' A-Class ? they have the capacity and certainly the 'know how'. They seem content to allow the Continentals to take any A-Class customers from them. RS excluded of course. Mystery to me. And I wonder why Autotrail dropped the 'Grande Frontier' ?? the very few I have seen, looked very good, on a heavy weight twin rear Wheeled Mercedes Chassis, like a 416, any 'quality teething troubles' could have been ironed out, i am sure. another mystery. Ray

If you look up-string to Derek's 08:17 post above, Ray, I think you'll see all your musings answered.

 

Simple answer is UK market is too small to recover development costs. Consider, there are, in reality, only a handful of continental A Class builders, but a lot more names on the fronts of continental A Class vans. The initial development costs are being spread across the whole LHD European market, as well as across group members - as with Hymer, whose A Class stable includes Burstner, Laika, Dethleffs and TEC. So too with other continental leisure vehicle manufacturing groups: Pilote, SEA, Trigano (Auto Trail :-)), etc.

 

The UK is a small, RHD market, with layout and equipment preferences that don't, generally, appeal to continental buyers. UK producers could, if they get all their quality issues sorted, produce vans specifically for the continental market, and would probably do well. But, they'd be an unknown quantity, so would have to compete initially mainly on price or specification, which is risky when needing to cover the initial development costs and also buy into a new market. Nice idea, but a huge and risky investment far exceeding the capability of any UK manufacturer alone to undertake. Shame, but they've missed the boat, IMO.

[Guest JudgeMental]

when they can get way with charging the same or even more for a home produced coachbuilt, (when an Imported quality, lightweight A class can cost less!) Why would they bother :D

[Brabander]

For me that is really a sad story and indicative of the state of the British manufacturing industry which should be the driver of economic progress.

 

As others have already mentioned the UK and Irish markets (LHD) are relatively small and the development costs of integrated motorhomes is much higher than that of coach built ones.

Amortising those significant development costs over the smaller volumes of the LHD markets is not easy for smaller manufacturers.

However, as Adria has shown, it is possible for new entrants to enter the market.

Another significant problem is that many cab manufacturers charge more for LHD cabs than RHD ones, their production costs are however no different.

 

I believe however that the biggest hurdle is the lack of export mentality in many UK companies.

Before finally retiring I was a director and co-owner of a UK manufacturer of industrial equipment for over 25 years.

Whereas most of our other UK based peers saw the UK home as their core market we believed that the global market was our home market.

As a result and after a lot of hard work our business grew to the point where we became the largest company in our industry in Europe and one of the largest in the world. Our UK sales represented 5-10% of our turnover.

 

There is absolutely no reason why there should not be an "Erwin Hymer" in the UK.

However this requires a change in mentality not only in industry but also in the banks and before all in the City and government.

I believe that the UK successfully exports static caravans, why not motorhomes.

 

I lived in France (Cote d'Azur) for a number of years and I have seen large numbers of motorhomes over the years. Whenever I saw a UK brand it almost invariably had a UK number plate.

 

Perhaps, Swift or Bailey may see a challenge in this and may I still see the day when this has changed.

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

But, Adria had been building and exporting trailer caravans into UK and to the continent (from Yugoslavia, under Tito) for decades before Slovenia was an independent state, or before they began making motorhomes. During that time they had gained a good reputation.

 

For motorhomes, they are a LHD country, so have only land frontiers to cross to access the whole of the continental market. A long established, and reasonably respected, firm that has progressed alongside other similar firms across the continent. Not, IMO, in the same position than as is the UK now.

 

I think UK manufacturers might start by selling coachbuilts into the continental market - but they would have to tailor their layouts for that market. They should need only one LHD production line initially, and might be well advised to start by selling into another small market, like the Netherlands. The Dutch travel everywhere, so the vans would be widely seen in LHD form. They have no manufacturing facilities in Holland, so no home market to protect, (even if they do own Knaus! :-)), and are a critical bunch, so the quality would need to be absolutely right. I don't mean superficial quality, I mean fault free, do it once, do it right, fault-free, quality. Then grow the brand from that base over time. It would be a slow build as the brand gained recognition as good value and good quality. Not easy with a floating pound! If successful, the added turnover should then one day enable them to finance the development of A class vans for both markets. One can but dream! :-)

[candapack]

An interesting thread, as usual a lot of knowledge/opinion on display.

Goes to show how good this forum can be.

 

Hope you're all enjoying the BH weekend, being retired, I no longer get the holiday. :D

[Guest Peter James]

Another hurdle for UK manufacturers is the fluctuating exchange rate. Having the same currency as their customers makes it safer for continental manufacturers to invest in new development.

Many good British engineers have gone bust because currency exchange rates moved against them :-(

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian Kirby - 2015-05-02 11:06 PM

 

...I think UK manufacturers might start by selling coachbuilts into the continental market - but they would have to tailor their layouts for that market. They should need only one LHD production line initially, and might be well advised to start by selling into another small market, like the Netherlands...

 

In the early 2000s Swift was marketing a limited range of Kon-Tiki models in Continental Europe in LHD format. These were certainly available in France (French magazine reviews commented on the luxurious interiors) and - in ‘winterised’ specification - in Scandinavia (I recall that a forum member had bought one and was asking about it years ago). I‘ve no idea what the sales were like, but presumably insufficient to encourage Swift to continue marketing LHD motorhomes abroad since.

 

Continental European motorhome brands that are marketed in this country are not the only brands available outside the UK. France and Germany have lots of (relatively small volume) motorhome manufacturers and the Swedish company KABE builds caravans and motorhomes (including A-class models) tailored for the Northern European market and Northern European weather. Such vehicles are LHD-only and have no official presence in the UK. Continental Europe is a very competitive arena for motorhome sales and, however much it would be nice to see a UK entrant to it being successful, there’s a point where optimism stops and realism takes over.

 

It will be remembered that RS Motorhomes staggered badly financially a while back, as did IH Motorhomes when they ventured into coachbuilt motorhome and toyed with caravan production. I suspect that Auto-Trail, the Explorer Group and Swift have learned their lesson regarding A-class production and won’t venture into that area again. Similarly, I can’t see any of the major UK motorhome constructors marketing LHD models abroad.

[Rayjsj]

Derek Uzzell - 2015-05-03 9:02 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2015-05-02 11:06 PM

 

...I think UK manufacturers might start by selling coachbuilts into the continental market - but they would have to tailor their layouts for that market. They should need only one LHD production line initially, and might be well advised to start by selling into another small market, like the Netherlands...

 

In the early 2000s Swift was marketing a limited range of Kon-Tiki models in Continental Europe in LHD format. These were certainly available in France (French magazine reviews commented on the luxurious interiors) and - in ‘winterised’ specification - in Scandinavia (I recall that a forum member had bought one and was asking about it years ago). I‘ve no idea what the sales were like, but presumably insufficient to encourage Swift to continue marketing LHD motorhomes abroad since.

 

Continental European motorhome brands that are marketed in this country are not the only brands available outside the UK. France and Germany have lots of (relatively small volume) motorhome manufacturers and the Swedish company KABE builds caravans and motorhomes (including A-class models) tailored for the Northern European market and Northern European weather. Such vehicles are LHD-only and have no official presence in the UK. Continental Europe is a very competitive arena for motorhome sales and, however much it would be nice to see a UK entrant to it being successful, there’s a point where optimism stops and realism takes over.

 

It will be remembered that RS Motorhomes staggered badly financially a while back, as did IH Motorhomes when they ventured into coachbuilt motorhome and toyed with caravan production. I suspect that Auto-Trail, the Explorer Group and Swift have learned their lesson regarding A-class production and won’t venture into that area again. Similarly, I can’t see any of the major UK motorhome constructors marketing LHD models abroad.

. IF that is the 'mindset' of the the British industry? Then it is very short sighted and takes no warnings from History. I am old enough to remember a 'thriving' British Motorcycle industry that was content with its 'Home' market ,and made little attempt to export its products to Europe although the USA was a good market for some. This attitude made no allowance for the fact that Foreign imports were slowly eroding away their 'precious' home market. The result is well-known. With the 'open door' that Common Market gives them into Europe, their inactivity makes them look very naive.

[Brian Kirby]

I think that is mere railing against the wind, Ray. Logically, trying to develop expensive A Class vans from scratch, for sale into a small UK motorhome market, is a recipe for financial disaster whoever tries it. UK industry is logical enough to see that.

 

We all need industry to thrive, as we all depend, in various ways, on its success for our incomes/pensions. If it hurls itself flights of fancy, without regard for the potential outcomes, it will do none of us any good.

 

We had any number of industries that have gone, for many reasons. Complacency, bad management, fluctuating currency values, high production costs, poorly trained workforces, short termism, chops and changes in government policy, and recently, the possibility of exiting the EU.

 

The potential returns on major capital investments have to be calculated over years, even decades. If the numbers don't stack up, no-one will put up the cash. It really is that simple. "Mindsets" don't come into it.

[Rayjsj]

Brian,

'A-Classes' aside, I see no 'major capital investment' in ordering small batches (at the start) of LHD base vehicles and converting them for the European market, yes, 'tailor the interiors' for more spartan equipped european tastes, and give it a try. Get some dealers onside. But NO prescence at all is simply STUPID in the extreme. IMHO. All the previous limits 'C.O.C's , approvals etc., are now common anyway. I don't see what is stopping them ??

Ray

[Brock]

Like the car and truck market, the Continentals have an advantage over the UK in that they have been selling a standard product in a mass market. This gives them scale of economies. If the UK motorhome industry were not protected by RHD and the Authorities' attitude to motorhoming, then the Continental firms would be dominating our market place. Personally, I can envisage a scenario where one big manufacturer in the UK exports to the Continent, with a few bespoke ones focused on the UK market.

 

DAF Trucks [Paccar] are an interesting concept. When I last had dealings with them, the Leyland plant was highly competitive and I believe built [assembled] all RHD models plus all of the small LF model. Don't know if that is the case now but it suggests there is nothing to stop someone like the Hymer Group buying up one of our big three 'independents' and getting them to build RHD vans. Auto Trail is part of Trigano. More likely to get RHD models built in the old Eastern Bloc countries with cheaper labour.

 

We remain an important player in the global bus market and seem quite happy to build and sell in LHD and RHD so it is no handicap if the returns are there.

 

I'd guess the motorhome market is not yet out of recession and so the costs of developing new markets cannot be afforded or the return generated is less than they can get by focusing on the UK market. The memories of surviving the recession will live with firms for a long time and leave them cautious about investing when markets are still unstable.

 

 

[rupert123]

Brock - 2015-05-04 10:14 AM

 

Like the car and truck market, the Continentals have an advantage over the UK in that they have been selling a standard product in a mass market. This gives them scale of economies. If the UK motorhome industry were not protected by RHD and the Authorities' attitude to motorhoming, then the Continental firms would be dominating our market place. Personally, I can envisage a scenario where one big manufacturer in the UK exports to the Continent, with a few bespoke ones focused on the UK market.

 

DAF Trucks [Paccar] are an interesting concept. When I last had dealings with them, the Leyland plant was highly competitive and I believe built [assembled] all RHD models plus all of the small LF model. Don't know if that is the case now but it suggests there is nothing to stop someone like the Hymer Group buying up one of our big three 'independents' and getting them to build RHD vans. Auto Trail is part of Trigano. More likely to get RHD models built in the old Eastern Bloc countries with cheaper labour.

 

We remain an important player in the global bus market and seem quite happy to build and sell in LHD and RHD so it is no handicap if the returns are there.

 

I'd guess the motorhome market is not yet out of recession and so the costs of developing new markets cannot be afforded or the return generated is less than they can get by focusing on the UK market. The memories of surviving the recession will live with firms for a long time and leave them cautious about investing when markets are still unstable.

 

While a lot of this is correct the bit about the car market certainly is not. More people still drive on the correct side of the road, the left, than on the right so the UK car industry, which even exports Japanese cars to Japan is not the same as the M/H one and does not suffer in the same way. Nissan, in Sunderland alone, now make more cars than the whole of the Italian car industry, euro land certainly does not have an advantage over the UK with cars as we export worldwide. The UK makers have the same problems exporting M/H's to euro land as they do to us. No euro land maker is really established in the UK and is unlikely to be with the very strong UK based makers. Companies like Swift are still struggling to fill their UK orders so have no real incentive to try and export, although they have made some attempts to do so. Will they ever make an 'A' class, personally I doubt it for the reasons others have given, again, personally I do not care as would never buy one of these mobile death traps.

[Billggski]

Just an observation, nowadays the correct side of the road to drive is on the right. Left hand side drivers can work the computer, sat-nav, heating controls, audio etc. with their right hands, which makes the whole thing much easier for the vast majority.

[rupert123]

Billggski - 2015-05-04 11:23 AM

 

Just an observation, nowadays the correct side of the road to drive is on the right. Left hand side drivers can work the computer, sat-nav, heating controls, audio etc. with their right hands, which makes the whole thing much easier for the vast majority.

?????????

[Guest pelmetman]

Duncan's going to be busy tomorrow :D ...........

 

 

[candapack]

Please all accept my apologies for stupidly (STUPIDLY?) starting a thread without thinking through the consequences.

I should have realised that this topic would be extremely emotive.

Duncan, sorry old chap if it causes you any hassle.

*-)

[747]

And I humbly apologise for biting back at the OAL Troll. I just get sick of his atrocious bad manners and I have the urge to reply in kind. It will stop as soon as HE learns to phrase his message without it sounding dictatorial, verbose and intimidating..