Guest pelmetman Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Reckon the truth is, everyone outside London and the South East would like independence from Westminster ;-) .............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I don't think the English press were or are anti Scottish at all but were purely telling it how it would be if the nightmare of a Labour/SNP government gained power , unless of course the politics of the left is your thing Salmond and Sturgeon told us the Scottish referendum last year was a once in a lifetime thing . I'll do a Paddy Ashdown and eat my hat if it is not asked for or happened in this next government term The Scots should be very carefull what they wish for , once they have dumped the grown ups in England with sound long term economic plans they will have a live for today government which is great for the short term but painfull later .. Thankfully though they will no longer be a burden on us jimmy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Lets face it the Scots were having to choose between Labour and The SNP it's a no brainer but the SNP will never get any larger because no one south of the border will vote for them large fish in small pond. Also no way will a majority of Scots vote tory so it's an impasse. As for Scotland being safe haven't you heard of midges. John. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 soarer - 2015-05-10 1:16 PM Maybe it's time for proportional representation http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32601281 What a difference a democratic voting system would make ;-) ............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soarer Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Seems a more balanced and fair method But I suppose it probably would create More problems than it solves.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Mmm....Italy would be a good example. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 soarer - 2015-05-10 8:15 PM Seems a more balanced and fair method But I suppose it probably would create More problems than it solves.... Seems to work O.K. in places like Norway, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands - to name a few. Politicians who would hate to lose the disproportional power that our system gives them usually quote Italy. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candapack Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Dave225 - 2015-05-10 3:26 PM Yes, the SNP have independence as their ultimate goal, but then again Sinn Fein have a united Ireland as theirs. Both have seats at Westminster although one has elected not to take them, but does take the expenses. However, as stated again and again just because a group of people wish to run their own affairs, that does not mean they hate the ones who might stop them. The SNP are not an anti English Party but the English Press are certainly very anti Scots and will use any excuse, slander or downright lie, to try to convice the English of that. It is curious, or maybe just interesting that the further away you are from the border, the more the people swallow that lie. It is very interesting that there has not been a single instance of an English person up here being 'attacked' in any form just for being English, or voting 'No', and the many living here see no reason to run back south. Those idiots who painted 'white settler' slogans way back in the 70's have grown up now. You can safely come up here for holidays etc, we will not run you out of town. Just do not read the English Newspapers. It is very strange that just last year the Referendum indicated for Scotland to remain as part of a DEMOCRATIC UK, but as soon as the Scots follow that path and vote democratically, they are called every name under the sun. So, the 'rules' are you will vote for anyone you like just as long as it is a Westminster/England approved Party. It is also perfectly clear that 56 MP's will not overule a Party with 300 plus MP's, but in Committee stages where that number gives them clout, they can make their case more forcefully. Plus of course the majority is very small and it only takes a few dissenters within Cameron's ranks for votes to go the other way. If that happens will all the English MP's who vote alongside the SNP ones be also called unpatriotic or just exercising their democratic right? The current polls, if you can believe them, indicate that a desire for independence in Scotland is still around 50%, so 50% do not wish it. Nicola Sturgeon is smart enough to know that 50% is not enough and will not run any Referendum until she sees 60+% looking for it. That may take a while to occur, or may even never occur. She also has the Holyrood elections next year and what she does in the next 12 months will affect that result. However, she has indicated that if the Westminster Governments pushes through changes that are completely against the wishes of Scotland, such as leaving the EU, then she would feel entitled to ask the people for a mandate for change. Now personally I would like to see us leave the EU, but the majority do not, so that is the way we go. I also doubt that Cameron will ever get to the point himself of pushing for withdrawal, as he has to much to lose. It is also true that polticians say many things on camera that they have no intention of following. Sometimes the occasion requires certain soundbites for the 'troops' etc. As for mandates the SNP took 50% of all votes, which is way above what the Conservatives achieved, so who actually has a mandate?? Well said Dave225 - except I want to stay within the EEU. Re Independence, it seems Nicola (not a Westminster MP) will have to keep a tight reign on Alex Salmond who is already coming over a bit gung ho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Britain has not done well out of the EU because its never really been in it (not having the currency for example) - just half in half out getting the worst of both worlds. Britain has missed out on most of the EU grants for improving the infrastructure, because few infrastructure improvements have been done, and when it is done its usually been privatised. By over declaring its GDP (counting rocketing rents as GDP Growth instead of inflation, adding on imaginary amounts for illegal drugs and prostitution) Britain has made itself liable for higher EU contributions to give others a rebate!! Britain has also attracted more than its share of low skilled EU migrants because its lack of employment regulation (what they call 'flexible workforce) has made it the easiest country for younger immigrants to displace older British workers from their jobs, or just disappear into the black economy. You can't really blame the EU for all that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Peter James - 2015-05-11 7:04 AM Britain has not done well out of the EU because its never really been in it (not having the currency for example) - just half in half out getting the worst of both worlds. Britain has missed out on most of the EU grants for improving the infrastructure, because few infrastructure improvements have been done, and when it is done its usually been privatised. By over declaring its GDP (counting rocketing rents as GDP Growth instead of inflation, adding on imaginary amounts for illegal drugs and prostitution) Britain has made itself liable for higher EU contributions to give others a rebate!! Britain has also attracted more than its share of low skilled EU migrants because its lack of employment regulation (what they call 'flexible workforce) has made it the easiest country for younger immigrants to displace older British workers from their jobs, or just disappear into the black economy. You can't really blame the EU for all that Sorry Peter but I have to say is this the best you can do? I rent properties and my rents have not gone up for nearly five years, so does this come off GDP, but it depends which angle you come from here. To me if I put a rent up it usually increases profit so does add to GDP, from my tenants angle it is indeed inflation so how do you equate all this. As for the drugs and prostitute thing where on earth do you get this from and as a past employer I have to say we have to much employment regulation. You do seem typical of the lefties in the UK who simply cannot accept democracy, you lost the election, get over it. For all those who seem to have forgotten we had a vote on PR back in 2011, how many votes do you want. We have a system of voting which has been voted for in a democratic way so why are still people bleating on about other systems? The Tories won, thank god, they may not get everything right but at least have some idea how the real world works. Even our very own Welsh crankie, the leader of Plaid came out just after the election and said Cameron does not have a mandate to govern in Wales despite having four times the seats of Plaid, perhaps she missed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 rupert123 - 2015-05-11 12:00 PM For all those who seem to have forgotten we had a vote on PR back in 2011, how many votes do you want. We have a system of voting which has been voted for in a democratic way so why are still people bleating on about other systems? The Tories won, thank god, they may not get everything right but at least have some idea how the real world works. . With respect we've never had such a demonstration of the failings of the first past the post system before ;-) ........... A party who gets 12.6% of the vote or in other words a third of the votes that the Tories got, yet only end up with 1 seat compared to 300 + for the Tories *-) ......... I doubt anything will change :-| ............but it does appear that Joe public has lurched to the right B-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 rupert123 - 2015-05-11 12:00 PM For all those who seem to have forgotten we had a vote on PR back in 2011, how many votes do you want. We have a system of voting which has been voted for in a democratic way so why are still people bleating on about other systems? Maybe because they were not given a vote on other systemS. There are many PR systems, and we just had a vote on the one AV system ( which no-one could explain clearly, and. I suspect, was opposed by the media ) The trouble is with our current system is that whoever wins " a majority " thinks they are supported by the majority of the population. After last weeks result, that is clearly not the situation. I don't know when the current system was voted for in a democratic way, I'm too young to remember it. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 pelmetman - 2015-05-11 12:19 PM rupert123 - 2015-05-11 12:00 PM For all those who seem to have forgotten we had a vote on PR back in 2011, how many votes do you want. We have a system of voting which has been voted for in a democratic way so why are still people bleating on about other systems? The Tories won, thank god, they may not get everything right but at least have some idea how the real world works. . With respect we've never had such a demonstration of the failings of the first past the post system before ;-) ........... A party who gets 12.6% of the vote or in other words a third of the votes that the Tories got, yet only end up with 1 seat compared to 300 + for the Tories *-) ......... I doubt anything will change :-| ............but it does appear that Joe public has lurched to the right B-) ........ Not sure what you mean here Dave, what demonstration? I agree it seems a bit unfair on UKIP but as I said the chance to change things was given in 2011 and it was voted to stay the same. As a member of Joe public, as are you, I reckon Joe P. just did the sensible thing, no lurch required. UKIP achieved one thing though, it forced a referendum on Europe, which we would never have got otherwise. Doubt we will vote to come out but it has made Europe sit up and take notice, they are dead scared of losing us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 malc d - 2015-05-11 1:00 PM rupert123 - 2015-05-11 12:00 PM For all those who seem to have forgotten we had a vote on PR back in 2011, how many votes do you want. We have a system of voting which has been voted for in a democratic way so why are still people bleating on about other systems? Maybe because they were not given a vote on other systemS. There are many PR systems, and we just had a vote on the one AV system ( which no-one could explain clearly, and. I suspect, was opposed by the media ) The trouble is with our current system is that whoever wins " a majority " thinks they are supported by the majority of the population. After last weeks result, that is clearly not the situation. I don't know when the current system was voted for in a democratic way, I'm too young to remember it. ;-) Nobody will ever be supported by the majority of the public, it never works that way. You can try any system you like but the same party would come out on top, the only difference would be to have another fudged coalition, probably with UKIP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 rupert123 - 2015-05-11 5:08 PM Not sure what you mean here Dave, what demonstration? I agree it seems a bit unfair on UKIP but as I said the chance to change things was given in 2011 and it was voted to stay the same. As a member of Joe public, as are you, I reckon Joe P. just did the sensible thing, no lurch required. UKIP achieved one thing though, it forced a referendum on Europe, which we would never have got otherwise. Doubt we will vote to come out but it has made Europe sit up and take notice, they are dead scared of losing us. What I mean't was, that as far as I can recall there has never been a election, where a party who have nearly 4 million voters have only gained one seat :-S .........The statistics show that just 35,000 voters will return a Tory, where as 4 million are needed to return a UKIP MP *-) .......... Looks pretty clear to me that the first past the post system is skewed in favour of the Tories & Labour who take it in turns to manipulate constituency borders to improve their chances at the next election *-) ...... http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2011/sep/13/reality-check-bourndary-reform Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian2000 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Re:PR - The coalition gave us a vote on probably one of the most complicated forms of PR. There are other systems which would work on a list sytem and have larger multi-representative contituencies. These would be much simpler to understand and implement and would produce a much fairer distribution of MPs. First past the post has always disadvantaged the third party. generally this was the Liberals (e.g. Feb 1974 / 6m votes / 19.3% share / 14 seats) Why Clegg chose/allowed the AV system to be the one for the referendum is anyones guess. In a multi party election the current system lacks credibility when so many voters are effectively disenfranchised with no representation in parliament. It also raises questions of legitimacy when the governing party achieved only 37% of the vote. A coalition under PR would at least have a definitive mandate to implement its policies as by definition a majority of the voters would have voted for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 rupert123 - 2015-05-11 5:12 PM Nobody will ever be supported by the majority of the public, it never works that way. Precisely. That's why there is a strong case for PR. We might not always get everything we want from a coalition, but at least they are a bit more democratic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 PR might be more democratic there would be but a lot of fudgy decisions with always the possibility of stalemate for prolonged periods. I favour PR for a second house replacing the House of Lords. The Commons With FPP to have a final say with fixed term elections for the UH 2.5 years after a GE for the commons. If a Government fell apart needing a GE the clock for the UH restarts. With that system the UH reflects more closely the electorate and acts a reviewing and advising body. There are a number of potential ways the UH reps could be selected. Something broadly similar was derived after great thought for the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I favour FPP with compulsory 18 age and over voting, also get rid of the ' We Love our Dog' or ' Is the Kettle On' type of party, what bloody use are these parties and what do they offer.....nothing.......bit like the Greens and Dim Lib's (lol) Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 George Collings - 2015-05-11 9:02 PM PR might be more democratic there would be but a lot of fudgy decisions with always the possibility of stalemate for prolonged periods. . It makes you wonder how all those other countries in Europe cope with it. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Is it PR in Italy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 George Collings - 2015-05-12 3:27 PM Is it PR in Italy. Yep. Italy have got PR .. .........and Germany, Norway, Netherlands, Denmark I don't know which PR systems they all use - there are a number to choose from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 antony1969 - 2015-05-10 3:49 PM I don't think the English press were or are anti Scottish at all but were purely telling it how it would be if the nightmare of a Labour/SNP government gained power , unless of course the politics of the left is your thing Salmond and Sturgeon told us the Scottish referendum last year was a once in a lifetime thing . I'll do a Paddy Ashdown and eat my hat if it is not asked for or happened in this next government term The Scots should be very carefull what they wish for , once they have dumped the grown ups in England with sound long term economic plans they will have a live for today government which is great for the short term but painfull later .. Thankfully though they will no longer be a burden on us jimmy I am afraid you did not see the articles and headlines given to us. The Scots were viewed in various turns as 'biigots, Nazis, Racists, Unpatriotic and a few others. The last was particularly hurtful considering the names we have adorning War memorials up and down the land. Nicola Sturgeon was named as 'the most dangerous woman in the UK'. Fortunately she saw the funny side of it, but if she is dangerous, then what about Putin, Kim Jon Un etc? That was nonsensical and atrocious reporting from the English press. If you feel the 'grownups' in England are so smart then why did none of your main Parties do better? In the 1930's the Jarrow marchers went to London seeking abetter deal, but I suspect they did no better than we have received over the years. Their issues are the same ones we are trying to bring to attention. Ignore the B.....t coming from the Press about how much money we receive, look more at lifespans and health records, then you get the true picture. While I am by no means a socialist and bluntly cannot stand Milliband and his cohorts, there is no doubt that the policies that will emanate from Westminster are going to bring a lot of hurt to a lot of people. It is the fact that the Labour party was so corrupt that has made many Scots turn to the SNP. That has nothing to do with independence merely a desire for a better world to live in. Yes, it will cost money but better the people get benefits rather than rich bankers and property magnates in the South East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Dave225 - 2015-05-12 7:40 PM While I am by no means a socialist and bluntly cannot stand Milliband and his cohorts, there is no doubt that the policies that will emanate from Westminster are going to bring a lot of hurt to a lot of people. It is the fact that the Labour party was so corrupt that has made many Scots turn to the SNP. That has nothing to do with independence merely a desire for a better world to live in. Yes, it will cost money but better the people get benefits rather than rich bankers and property magnates in the South East. There seems to be a stark choice of policies from the UK parliament. Tory - generate jobs, manufacturing, exports, wealth and taxation from income so that you can spend it on tax cuts for the all and services and benefits for those who have earned the right to those benefits by working and contributing in the first place whilst also making the UK less attractive to non working immigrants on the hunt for a better life at our expense. Labour - sod the wealth generation just create as many jobs working for the government as you can to make unemployment look good whilst borrowing as much as you need to meet idealistic policies of funding all the non wealth generating govt jobs whilst giving benefits to all regardless of their own contributions to UK society. No need to worry about repaying the debt as our kids and grand kids can do that for us. If the Scottish people want what they see as a fairer society in Scotland that is commendable - but let the Scottish people generate the jobs, income, wealth and taxation to pay for it all because I don't see why the rest of the UK should fund Scottish ideals. So let's give Edinburgh tax raising powers and total fiscal responsibility and then when the Nicola's sh1t of giving away more than you earn hits the fan we can tell 'em 'told you so' - and bail 'em out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Dave225 - 2015-05-12 7:40 PM antony1969 - 2015-05-10 3:49 PM I don't think the English press were or are anti Scottish at all but were purely telling it how it would be if the nightmare of a Labour/SNP government gained power , unless of course the politics of the left is your thing Salmond and Sturgeon told us the Scottish referendum last year was a once in a lifetime thing . I'll do a Paddy Ashdown and eat my hat if it is not asked for or happened in this next government term The Scots should be very carefull what they wish for , once they have dumped the grown ups in England with sound long term economic plans they will have a live for today government which is great for the short term but painfull later .. Thankfully though they will no longer be a burden on us jimmy I am afraid you did not see the articles and headlines given to us. The Scots were viewed in various turns as 'biigots, Nazis, Racists, Unpatriotic and a few others. The last was particularly hurtful considering the names we have adorning War memorials up and down the land. Nicola Sturgeon was named as 'the most dangerous woman in the UK'. Fortunately she saw the funny side of it, but if she is dangerous, then what about Putin, Kim Jon Un etc? That was nonsensical and atrocious reporting from the English press. If you feel the 'grownups' in England are so smart then why did none of your main Parties do better? In the 1930's the Jarrow marchers went to London seeking abetter deal, but I suspect they did no better than we have received over the years. Their issues are the same ones we are trying to bring to attention. Ignore the B.....t coming from the Press about how much money we receive, look more at lifespans and health records, then you get the true picture. While I am by no means a socialist and bluntly cannot stand Milliband and his cohorts, there is no doubt that the policies that will emanate from Westminster are going to bring a lot of hurt to a lot of people. It is the fact that the Labour party was so corrupt that has made many Scots turn to the SNP. That has nothing to do with independence merely a desire for a better world to live in. Yes, it will cost money but better the people get benefits rather than rich bankers and property magnates in the South East. I obviously haven't seen your press Dave ... If what has been said has in some way made you feel that the names on the memorials have been belittled then that ain't good ... Myself and many others salute every single one of em and those still serving today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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