Consequences of engine neglect by over-long term storage

[StuartO]

We all probably know that MH engines suffer more harm from idleness than overuse, since their engines are designed for hard and regular use, not sitting idle for week or even months on end and corroding. They might not suffer too much obvious corrosion, but inside the used oil is corroding the oilways and byways and the bearing surfaces are drained of their protective lubricant cover.

 

But these are apocryphal truths - is there any hard evidence of how much idleness causes how much damage, or if there is a threshold of idleness beyond which even a relatively new engine will suffer serious harm, perhaps even be written off.

 

Is six months of idleness too much, or one year, or two, three or five?

 

Are modern engines, with their finely engineered fuels systems and complex electronics, more vulnerable to idlesness than older and simpler "classic" engines?

 

If it starts and runs, get an oil change and get run for a good while, is that a safe indication that no serious harm has been done?

 

Which engine components and ancillaries are at risk? Do modern alternators soak up moisture over time and doom themselves to premature failure? Does the diesel sitting idle in the fuel system protect or corrode? Does old engine oil always become corrosive and if so how quickly and badly will it have a damaging effect?

 

Does anyone have experience of bringing a long-neglected modern diesel engine back into service and if so what adverse effects were revealed?

[Guest pelmetman]

Never left a motor unused for 6 months.............although came close with Horace once :$ ..........consequences were a dead batteris, sticky bog electrics and square tyres.............bill.......several 100 quid 8-) .........and he was in undercover storage and only a few years old :-( ............

 

 

[747]

That is why my oil change is done at the back end of the year, so when it sits about more than usual, it has new oil in. I don't see this as a huge problem as Motorhomes usually have long runs when they are used and acidic deposits are more likely with short runs when the engine is not up to temperature.

 

As for tyres, pump more air in if the vehicle is standing for long periods. It is easy enough to let it out again.

 

The best thing to do however, is to use it as often as possible over Winter.

[nowtelse2do]

If it's being left for a long period then keep the tank full, that will prevent condensation and rust forming. Good idea to change the filters, diesel has water in it.

 

In the past I've started old truck (HGV's) engines up after they've been stood for a number of years. If you take the injectors out and fill the bores with diesel then leave for a couple of days, change filters, put new fuel in, then when ready turn the engine over with the crank nut a few times. Clean and put the injectors back in, new oil, then start it up, after all the smoke has cleared (and there will be some) and you can see the truck again it's a good feeling seeing them brought back to life. It does consist of a bit more than that but that is basicly what you do.

 

Dave

[colin]

In my profession it is very common for engines to be left unused for 6 months over winter, zero houring a 4 pot gypsy or Renault engine will cost £35,000, a RR more like £250,000, at these costs (some) owners are much more switched on to preserving the engines, this consists of inhibiting the engine over winter, In most cases the manufacturers or MOD have produced manuals to show what must be done.

[Rayjsj]

Diesel engined Generator, Computer Back-up Systems are supposed to be started up and run for at least 10 minutes every Month. If this simple monthly check was Ignored, and a lot of Companies did ignore it, because of having to pay overtime on a Sunday Morning.

When the inevitable happened, a power supply cut, the Diesels refused to power up automatically, the back-up batteries slowly discharged and the Mainframe Computer fell flat on it's Backside. Costing potentionally Millions. All for the want of a bit of 'servicing'. The person who decided to scrap the Sunday Generator tests and servicing to save a few pounds. Was seldom kicked up the backside, as they deserved. It was put down to 'Computer problems' Sound Familiar ?

Anyway, all engines benefit from a run at least once a month, and preferably out on the road. Ray

[StuartO]

So, we all believe that engines need use rather than idleness, but what if that doesn;t happen and an engine is left idle for a long period. Then someone hooks up a battery and starts it, maybe then changes the oil and it seems to be running OK. But it's had a long, long period of neglect, maybe two or three years.

 

The engine might seem to be running OK again and the vehicle drives normally but is the engine OK, or a basket case waiting for breakdown after breakdown?

 

Supposing you are taking this vehicle over - an old aunt has died a two or three years after her husband and their beloved MH stood idle, now it falls to you and it's too good in all other respects to cast aside. What do you need to do to be reasonably sure the drive train is reliable again?

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

StuartO - 2015-05-08 7:59 AM

 

So, we all believe that engines need use rather than idleness, but what if that doesn;t happen and an engine is left idle for a long period. Then someone hooks up a battery and starts it, maybe then changes the oil and it seems to be running OK. But it's had a long, long period of neglect, maybe two or three years.

 

The engine might seem to be running OK again and the vehicle drives normally but is the engine OK, or a basket case waiting for breakdown after breakdown?

 

Supposing you are taking this vehicle over - an old aunt has died a two or three years after her husband and their beloved MH stood idle, now it falls to you and it's too good in all other respects to cast aside. What do you need to do to be reasonably sure the drive train is reliable again?

 

 

I'll be finding out soon :-S ..........as the engine I've put in my works van has stood since 2011..........that said, I've heard it running, and for a 38 year old motor it sounds sweet as a nut, as for reliability watch this space :-| .............

 

I doubt it can be worse than the engine I took out, so many breakdowns I lost my ADAC membership............although it was never the banana engine that failed, it was everything else *-) .........

 

 

 

 

[colin]

StuartO - 2015-05-08 7:59 AM

 

The engine might seem to be running OK again and the vehicle drives normally but is the engine OK, or a basket case waiting for breakdown after breakdown?

 

 

It's a grey area, I've seen an engine fail due to oilway being blocked by contaminates probably caused by standing too long, that will probably be evident after a short time, but any extra wear caused by contaminates such as oxides flowing around the engine are very hard to quantify.

I've had several vehicles that have stood for ages, and when coming back into use, have had a couple of quick oil/filter changes and been fine.

Lets just pluck a couple of figures out of the air, how many miles does a low usage van do? 5000 a year say, lets just guess that long standing over winter halves the engine life, you are still looking at a good few years, but thats all pure conjecture.

[StuartO]

Pure conjecture is what we're into here I think, because I doubt there is much evidence of whether rejuvinated, long-stored engines will be a serious reliability risk.

 

Perhaps the military will have done some research because they have to (or used to have to) store vehicles for long periods and would want them to perform reliably when they go back into service. But I'm not aware of any published outcomes.

 

Classic car collections (and classic lorries and buses) will need to be stored idle for long periods too, but I doubt that experience of keeping them reliable will read over to modern, different diesels with their complex fuel systems and electronic sensors and control stuff.

 

We know that old engine oil and idleness is likely (or maybe inevitably) causes some internal engine corrosion which effectively accelerates engine wear - but unquantifiably.

 

And the electronic control stuff on modern engines is sealed from the environment isn't it, so unless there has been some extra storage issue, maybe that area will be OK.

 

More exposed electric ancillaries such as the starter motor and alternator might have suffered I suppose, but they aren't hugely expensive if they do fail.

 

Unless the vehicle has a suspect history for other reasons, maybe if it comes back into service and does seem to run well, it's worth the risk.

[747]

You mentioned in another thread that you are looking to buy another motorhome, a large one.

 

Now this thread about idle engines.

 

Is there a connection?

[StuartO]

747 - 2015-05-08 12:42 PM

 

You mentioned in another thread that you are looking to buy another motorhome, a large one.

 

Now this thread about idle engines.

 

Is there a connection?

 

Yes. I didn't mention it because I wanted an uncluttered response to the engine aspects. It turns out the MH I have been considering has been lying idle and unsold for three years in a dealer's yard. I'm trying to work out how much of a bad idea buying it, even at a good price, might turn out to be.

[pepe63xnotuse]

Blimey Stu' , ..."...lying idle and unsold for three years in a dealer's yard.." 8-)

 

I think I'd hesitate buying lawnmower that had sat for that long, never mind a MH. . :-S

[747]

StuartO - 2015-05-08 1:18 PM

 

747 - 2015-05-08 12:42 PM

 

You mentioned in another thread that you are looking to buy another motorhome, a large one.

 

Now this thread about idle engines.

 

Is there a connection?

 

Yes. I didn't mention it because I wanted an uncluttered response to the engine aspects. It turns out the MH I have been considering has been lying idle and unsold for three years in a dealer's yard. I'm trying to work out how much of a bad idea buying it, even at a good price, might turn out to be.

 

My last van had a gap of 2.5 years from being part exchanged by the previous owner to me buying it. I know that in that time, it had occasional use by Staff of Discover Leisure but that amounted to very little usage. I had no bother whatsoever with that van for the 5 years I had it. The only things that needed replacing were typical for a van of that age. The 2.8 JTD engine never missed a beat, or used any oil between services.

 

I would not necessarily be put off by the fact it had not turned a wheel in a long time but by the same token, I would not buy it and set off for Spain the following day. No doubt the price will be reflected by its condition and lack of use, so it is well worth getting it into a workshop for servicing and a good check over.

[Steve928]

StuartO - 2015-05-08 1:18 PM

It turns out the MH I have been considering has been lying idle and unsold for three years in a dealer's yard. I'm trying to work out how much of a bad idea buying it, even at a good price, might turn out to be.

 

Personally I would be less concerned about the period standing idle (I've left slightly less modern boat diesels standing for 3 years and more without any detectable effects) but more about how many times it might have been cold started, moved a few yards then stopped in that period. When I know I'm going to be laying-up an engine I'm always sure to ensure it was at full working temperature immediately prior to it being stopped as the first few minutes of running generate so much internal moisture.

[StuartO]

Steve928 - 2015-05-08 1:44 PM

 

Personally I would be less concerned about the period standing idle (I've left slightly less modern boat diesels standing for 3 years and more without any detectable effects) but more about how many times it might have been cold started, moved a few yards then stopped in that period. When I know I'm going to be laying-up an engine I'm always sure to ensure it was at full working temperature immediately prior to it being stopped as the first few minutes of running generate so much internal moisture.

 

Unfortunately there is no way of knowing that. It is likely to have been started occassionally and perhaps taken for a demonstration drive. It does start easily and run sweetly now. There is evidence that it was towed at some point (because the towing eye on the front bears the evidence) and the Dealer explains this as an electrical fault but without revealing any detail.

[StuartO]

A bit more information. The MH is on an Iveco Daily chassis with a 3.0 litre engine and rear wheel drive so I rang up our local Iveco Service Department. The guy was very helpful.

 

He told me this engine is very robust and reliable and often does over 250,000 miles without serious attention in ambulances. In essence he told me not to worry, just change the engine oil and the oil and fuel filters, then run it, crossing other bridges as I came to them.

 

It starts on the button and runs sweetly, so I am reassured enough to be willing to try.

[PeteH]

Hi

 

I "lay up"a Winnebago 6.4 Ford Engine for several months at a time in Texas. The procedure is the same Full Oil and filter change (Full Synthetic Oil) Put Fuel Additive in the Tanks and fill (Full) to keep moisture at bay (Texas can be high humidity) Take it out for a run and get it thoroughly Hot, before parking up on the Levelling Jacks. The same/similar procedure I use with the Generator too. So Far I have no issues with the Coach. But did lose a Battery Once due to a Failed solar panel.

 

As another poster pointed out Emergency Alternators often get neglected but have generally reasonably long life spans provided they are run on a schedule.

 

IF I was recommissioning an engine I would be inclined to turn it manually with fresh oil in the system and some in the bore, before firing up on Fresh diesel, It could pay to Flush the cooling system too?.

 

Corrosion is accelerated by the products of combustion which inevitably find their way into Engine systems, I am not a big fan of "Flushing oil" but it may benefit a long term "Stander", But you have to be wary of the fact that some of the larger deposits might block oil ways if they come away in too large a "lump". (for those who remember them the (Ford) "Pinto" engine was notorious for the blockage of the oil distribution pipe to the rockers, especially if the oil change was neglected!).

 

Pete

[StuartO]

The motorhome I am looking at was serviced in 2012 and has only done 500 miles since then. It may have been run occassionally over the years but probably not very often or for very long. I don't know hwo it was started up prior to the recent inspection but it is now running sweetly, so the opportunity to change oil or lubricate cyliders etc before restarting has gone.

 

But the Iveco Service guy I spoke to was remarkably encouraging - just change the filters as well as the oil and away you go!

[George Collings]

My gut feeling is that there would be more to worry about with a motor that had been started and run for ten minutes a fortnight than one left for much more prolonged periods.

 

I saw a graph for engine wear plotted against running time and and once running temperature is achieved the curve drops like a stone before tapering down over the next half hour to virtually zero. I have heard of diesel powered generators running 24/7 for several years at a time with regular oil and filter changes. The filters get shut off during the change and the oil is pumped and renewed at the same time. Wear is virtually zero and the limiting factor is valve seat recession due to hammering.

 

Even seized engines with rusty cylinder bores can be restarted after many years idle and I know of one that went for years afterwards. Initially it used oil but the original piston rings seemed to run themselves in. One theory was the rust etched bores held oil and helped lubrication. Mind you clearances were a lot wider 40 years ago.

 

If the price is right put the money saved in the bank as insurance and hope for the best.

[aandncaravan]

We restore Citroen H vans that were in production from 1947 to 1981 fitted with both Petrol, Perkins Diesel and Peugeot Diesel engines. The later Diesels from 1969 to 1981.

We also repair and service modern Motorhomes up to 2015, Mercs and Fiat/Peugeot/Ford, etc.

 

We often see Motorhomes with very low mileages and they can be so different in the way the lack of usage/standing has affected them, like a 55 reg Transit with just 14k on the clock that was mint. Clearly stood around a lot in it's life as the front brakes were seized, needing new Calipers and Discs. But otherwise excellent.

Yet 2 weeks later we had in another Transit and the underneath was rusty as a 1949 Ferguson Tractor. The Alternator bearings were howling, both nearside wheel Bearings were gone, front Brakes seized, holed exhaust, etc. The mileage? 11k.

We think the first had mostly stood on concrete whereas the second had probably stood on grass. the Grass grows up touching the underside making it almost permanently wet.

The engines on both were good.

 

To date we have probably brought back 12 petrol H vans and 3 Diesels from the dead, one Petrol had stood 22 years the 'worst' Diesel 7 years. Once the Oil, antifreeze, Brake Fluid, filters etc are changed the vans can run fine without issue, but only for a while.

You have to remember that the gaskets in a 50 year old engine have a life of about 25 years. Once pressed back into use the paper cracks/deteriorates, the rubber goes rock hard and although the engine will start and run, it will start to smoke as the valve guide Oil seals go brittle and let past Oil. The Bearing seals start to leak and the Head gasket is prone to failure.

 

So you are right that the issues between a Classic and 'modern' engines are quite different.

However, there are other common issues.

With your potential purchase we would make a guess that the Diesel engine should be ok if it starts and runs nicely, as should the manual box. But change the fuel as soon as you can, more on that later.

 

Pay special attention to the clutch/flywheel. When a vehicle stands idle for a long time the Clutch friction disc material tends to hold water and rust to the flywheel. You will be aware of advice not to leave a handbrake 'on' for long storage periods because the linings (very much the same technology as Clutch linings) hold moisture and rust to the drum? Same applies to the clutch, but whereas Brake shoes/Drums/Disc tend to clean themselves suffering little damage, the flywheel is less likely to escape scott free. The friction disc also tends to suffer longer term with judder, and snatching. If it has dual mass flywheel it could cost big money. We think that some of the much publicised Clutch judder on Motorhomes (which remember is not mirrored on a Daily van with the same Chassis) is down to clutch rusting to the flywheel from standing causing scoring. But this is pure conjecture.

 

Budget for a complete brake strip and clean (Calipers do not like being idle) a new exhaust (it will most likely be paper thin rusting from the inside out). Budget for a REALLY major service : all fluids, Brake, Clutch, antifreeze, Engine Oil, Diff Oil Gearbox, etc.

Also replace all belts, including cambelt as it is likely to have wrapped tightly around the same pulley position for a long term causing cracking/weakening at that point. Premature failure is often an issue.

 

Tyres might have cracking and possibly funny noises/vibration as they are not likely to be 'circlular' any more.

If you think hard I am sure you could come up with lots more?

 

The last post is right, the absolutely worst thing you can do with any engine is run it for just 10 minutes every month as it won't get hot enough to 'clean' itself.

Running it for 10 minutes each month at idle is even worse.

Drive it, ideally for at least 30minutes. One local man uses his Motorhome to do the monthly BIGy Supermarket shop. It's a pain to park but a brilliant run as he goes to one in the next town.

Warm it up gently, then hammer it for at least 10 minutes. The last mile of your journey should be gentle but with decent revs to move lots of cooling Oil through the Turbo before you come to a rest. Otherwise the heat built up in the turbo may cook the Oil.

 

The thing that really caused us grief on one Diesel H van that stood a long time was Diesel bug.

On this one Diesel the engine looked really promising, had great compression, nice antifreeze and clean Oil, but clearly had not run in a long time.

When we get an old van, the first thing we do is drain the old stale fuel and clean the tank. This one’s tank was full of Tar. I was convinced the owner had tried some kind of Bio fuel experiment maybe using Tar dissolved in White Spirit or something, because this stuff in the tank was just like hard Tar.

It would not clean, we tried White Spirit, Petrol, Cellulose thinners but the only thing that make an impact was old Brake Fluid and unless you got the dissolved tar out quickly, it rapidily reset to Tar.

We were discussing it when a friend of Richards dropped in and said,

"It's Diesel bug. Nightmare stuff. In 2013 we had all the Council gritting lorries ready to go with the first Frost. The frost was later than previous years, didn't arrive until late November, but it was a bad one.

Only one Gritting lorry engine would start". "We spent days trying to find out the problem. We could see no fuel was getting through. When we dismantled a Injection pump it was full of Tar. The fuel lines were blocked by tar. The tank had Tar in it. We thought it was a vandal attack and someone had put tar in all the fuel tanks”.

"We then read about Diesel bug which is common in the big fuel tanks on Boats where the fuel is allowed to stagnate. It has only been a real problem since 2012 when they stopped adding Sulphur to Diesel. Apparently the Sulphur in the fuel used to keep the Diesel bug at bay”.

“We spent ages removing the fuel tanks replacing the fuel lines and having all the Injection Pumps cleaned. One by one we got the lorries back on the Road. The Press hammered us for being unprepared, but we had done exactly as we had done in previous years".

“Our Gritting lorries had been serviced and then stored away in early spring ready for the Winter. We didn’t use them again until November. The combination of the frost ending early that Spring and a long warm Summer meant the Diesel bug thrived in the fuel tanks. The Tar is their waste by-product, apparently. We now use an additive. You will also now see Gritting Lorries out on the Motorways in Summer. Obviously not gritting, but getting a good run".

 

 

Following this tale, we removed the Citroen H van Injectors and pump for Cleaning/Rebuild. Refitted them and it ran beautifully. Well, as good as a 1970’s Diesel does.

 

The advice previously on keeping the Fuel tank full, reduces the chance of Condensation which not only keeps rust at bay, but reduces moisture in the Fuel which the Diesel bug needs to thrive. When you do start using the MH in the Spring, try and run the tank as empty as you can before fill-up so that you then have a fresh tank of fuel with minimum contamination from the old tank which may have some contamination.

Changing your Fuel Filter regularly is becoming more critical if you want to prevent Injector blockage, which in turn can wreck an engine. See the thread on Remanufactured engines.

 

We would suggest that if your van stands idle for long periods you consider an additive like 'Marine 16' or something similar to this : http://www.siriusmarine.co.uk/diesel-additives/1/OneShot-Diesel-Bug-Biocide.html

 

http://www.force4.co.uk/marine-16-diesel-bug-treatment-100ml.html?gclid=CjwKEAjwg7yqBRCu5NmlgMm6i08SJADDEudZmskDcosfnwlNGEps1tVu3j7iNiW4Hyk_0K1jHl5ZRBoCLs_w_wcB#.VU8YK8J0z4g

 

The biocides work by killing the bug and breaking up the Tar so it gets picked up in the Fuel Filter. We would suggest that if your MH has spent a lot of time idle, that after you use the tank of fuel the biocide was added to that you get the Fuel Filter changed?

 

 

Boats have huge fuel tanks so the bottles of additive tend to be able to treat 100,000 litre tanks. Suggest you Buy the stuff as a co-operative and add a few drops to the tanks when you meet up at a Show/Rally? Bought like this, it is not much more than a couple of pounds a tank treatment.

 

Motorhomes that are used all year won’t have an issue, but if it stands for just a few months think about the above.

Remember that Diesel bug is a big problem at the refineries, storage depots, and filling stations so it is already in the fuel even before it gets in your fuel tank. Just don’t give it time to thrive and become a nuisance.

 

Just to repeat you won't have an issue unless the MH stands idle a lot.