Craig J Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Hello My first post here so please be gentle. I am looking to purchase a van conversion to be used as a support vehicle during club motor racing events. I really like the look of the ones with a transverse bed with garage below and forward dinette. We have narrowed our choice down to the Autocruise Carrera 4, Globecar Globescout Sportive and Adria 600 Twin Titan, because they seem to fit our needs perfectly, can easily be used for non-race weekends and the designs are a bit more sporty than the norm. Despite the difficult decision of which one to chose (budget will no doubt decide that one), the only major concern is around towing capability. Based on the Ducato/Boxer, all of them have a 2500kg towing capacity, which is well above my 1700-1800kg car and trailer. With load capacity all around 450-500kg, we will be tight with tools, etc., but should be manageable. My main concern is with a total train weight around 5300kg, what engine do I really need to tow safely. I have decided that as a minimum, I will be going for the 2.3l 150PS/350Nm variant which is ready available. If I go this route, then I can purchase a conversion almost immediately and this will allow me to get good use this season. If I decide that I need a 3.0 180PS/400Nm version, then this will be a special order/build and I will have to wait until the end of the year before delivery missing the season. Just to add, I have already searched high and low and cannot find a second hand 180PS van available anywhere. Finally to the question… Can anyone tell me if the 150PS would be adequate for my purposes from experience towing with similar train weight? Or, do I really need the extra power/torque that the bigger engine gives. Unfortunately, I can't take my race car and tools for a test-drive, so experience and opinion would be greatly appreciated. Finally, if anyone has any opinions on the vans I mentioned, then please feel free to pass on your thoughts. Kind regards Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Mine is a coachbuilt, so not quite the same,but the weights and engine size compares. I have the 150 2.3 Fiat, euro5 engine, 2012 Autotrail Savannah laden weight 4250 kg. I also tow my car, A Toyota Yaris 2010, on an A-Frame, car 1040 kg + frame @ 20kg. which also happens to be my maximum allowable towed weight.(which is why I don't use a Trailer). As for Performance, I literally don't know that the car is there, it pulls up hills very well, and keeps at the legal limit (60mph) with ease, it would be quite happy to accelerate to 70 or 80, and I have to be careful. I watch the rear of me and the car,car coupling with a 2nd camera which I wouldn't tow without. SO, yes, IMO the 150 would be 'man' enough for your needs. My only problem is the unreliability of modern diesel engines, that arent 'thrashed', as mine isnt. DPF blocked problems, and dropping into limp mode. very annoying. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry1956 Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Hi.i own a 150bhp campscout.i do a lot of towing from mini diggers to my old stag. The 150bhp as 40nm less then the 180bhp.but to be honest 95 percent of the time the vans find.on long motorway hills its a bit of a drag.i was thinking of having a remap but its not that much of a deal so i have not done so yet.as to payload,both the 150 and the 180 are the same.michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig J Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share Posted May 16, 2015 Thank you for your feedback. This was exactly the type of information I was after. Cheers Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 We restore Citroen HY vans, as a result we have them transported around the country. One of the issues that has cropped up recently, and may be an issue for you as you are so close to your limits, is the way the load is placed in the MH, not just staying within the overall weight limits. While a Motorhome might have a 4200kg all up weight limit, that is usually spread evenly across the Axles. It would clearly be dangerous to have 1200kg over the front axle and 3000kg on the rear axle as this might put the tyres above their limits, not to mention induce instability. I am guessing, possibly completely wrong, that your trailer will have a nose weight of around 150kg which will be applied down onto the tow bar and effectively load up the rear axle? It is a weight that people often don't add to the calculations. You may also be tempted to use the Garage for all those heavy tools, again loading up the rear axle? I would guess that more than most you will have a lot of weight in the rear? Obviously this will depend on the Motorhome interior design as to whether the heavy Fridge is at the front or middle etc. What I am trying to say is that the Adria (for example) may be constructed in such a way, with all the heavy furniture/food/clothes/ storage at the front giving a greater rear axle weight availability in real terms than the others? Then again they may all have identical axle weights. I don't know, just thought it worth pointing out not just to help decide your purchase but for the trip to the weighbridge after you buy? I got stopped by the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (what was VOSA) at 11:49, half an hour from my destination, but eventually got home at 23:43. I had to unload the Citroen HY van off the trailer and get both trailer and vehicle recovered on a flatbed. Expensive!! Luckily I did not get any points/fine as I was able to prove the VOSA figures were incorrect. I was targeted because it was Motorhome towing a trailer with a vehicle on it. It is one of these 'Trains' that is often overweight in one area or another, so they told me. Again, something you probably already know, but might be worth ensuring, for your own safety, that the MH does have the proper weight/speed rated tyres on the back. There can be quite a difference in load index between one Tyre manufacturer and another which is often not taken into account? Not normally an issue but sounds like you might be right on the limit? I would suggest you do consider an ECU remap, they do work well if done properly, not just giving more power with better top gear pull up hills, but also improved MPG. We had a customer claim another 4mpg. If you have it done we suggest you shorten your Service intervals slightly, which you should think about anyway with the extra strain of that weight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Good point about the rear axle weight, but van conversions have much less rear axle overhang than coachbuilts, so rear axle overload is very unlikely. I am sure power output will be adequate for England's congested roads too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry1956 Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Some good points made.but the max nose weight is around 100kg. Yes it would be madness to overload the rear axle as i have seen many people do.but a ducato van can tow 2000kg and this would allow some storage on the trailer.it can be done,but its worth taking the loaded van and trailer to be weigh in.as i said noneed for a remap.and tells of improved mpg mostly unfounded unless you drive like a road block.michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Peter James - 2015-05-17 8:36 AM Good point about the rear axle weight, but van conversions have much less rear axle overhang than coachbuilts, so rear axle overload is very unlikely. ....nonetheless, it is worthwhile noting the difference between the (standard) base units for the models the OP put forward (patently, there may be uprated versions available, but possibly not "from stock"). AFAIK, both the Adria and Globecar flagged are built as standard on the 3300 L chassis, with F/R max axle weights respectively of 1750/1900 kg (and a MAM of 3300kg). The Autocruise is built as standard on the 3500 L chassis, with max axle weights of 1850/2000kg (and a MAM of 3500kg) This difference may be of interest if required payload, and/or a potential trailer noseweight of 100kg are taken into account. I think the 150hp engine would be adequate (but can't speak from experience), but personally, if I were considering the loads put forward, I would be interested also in the suspension and braking characteristics of the vehicle. Accordingly, I'd be far happier with a vehicle based on the 3500 H van, with uprated braking as standard, and max axle loadings of 210/2500 kg (and 500kg more towing allowance). I think both experiences of towing posted above relate to such "maxi" vehicles. Whilst not very many converters use the "maxi" (3500 H) as standard, a few do (e.g. Globecar for some models), and the more informed dealer may order some vehicles with the option. It is possible to buy "from stock", but a restricted number of models/options will be available . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig J Posted May 17, 2015 Author Share Posted May 17, 2015 Thank you again for the input. As aandncaravan pointed out, there is a risk of the nose weight creating an issue with these vehicles. I had been considering this and it was one of the main reasons that I was staying within the 6m length in order to minimise overhang and risk of overloading the rear axle. Taking the Globecar for example, it has a running mass of 2855 and a payload of 445. I would expect the base van to have a front weight bias, which then will be redistributed with the conversion. Without actually getting the chance to weigh one, I would expect that this would end up around 50/50 worst case? The rear axle limit is 1900, so if the 50/50 is a safe assumption, then I could put the whole 445kg payload including trailer nose weight (although the mrs might not be too happy never mind completely illegal) over the rear axle and I would still be within the axle limit. Just. I think that Robinhood makes a very good point and this is definitely a strong reason to specify my own van. Based on this input, I need to do a little more research on the base vans and see what might be available and a better option. I am guessing Autocruise won't do the upgrade chassis, which is more likely with Globecar, but need to confirm if I can get this on a Sportive model. More food for though... Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Craig J - 2015-05-17 11:12 AM Thank you again for the input. As aandncaravan pointed out, there is a risk of the nose weight creating an issue with these vehicles. I had been considering this and it was one of the main reasons that I was staying within the 6m length in order to minimise overhang and risk of overloading the rear axle. Craig All L4 (6.36m) vans are built on a Maxi chassis, as robin points out above this raises the rear axle plated weight to 2.4t. Even with the extra 360mm (14") overhang, you will find it very hard to overload the rear axle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Craig J - 2015-05-17 11:12 AM I am guessing Autocruise won't do the upgrade chassis, which is more likely with Globecar, but need to confirm if I can get this on a Sportive model. Craig ...well, you could always ask Swift/Autocruise; it should be an easy process (though I suspect the answer will be no). In theory at least, the Sportive is available (and pricelisted) on both the 3500 Light, and 3500 Heavy (Maxi). The extract from the current German pricelist below shows the respective costs for both (in Euro - so read £s for the UK market ;-) ). A special order for RHD, however, would no doubt take some time. Over the last year there have been a few of the smaller Globecar 'vans advertised RHD and new on the 3500 chassis, though I suspect they would be the 3500 light - so there just might be a chance of picking a pre-ordered dealer special up, though the current hiatus in dealerships might make that a bit more difficult. (BTW, I don't think your weights for the Sportive reflect the latest published figures, but once you add the very desirable all-in pack, you aren't far out). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 ....and just as an add-on. There are a few new Sportives showing on Mobile.de (though they are last year's X250s) I think all of them are flagged as the 3500kg version (though as I've said, I suspect they'll be on the 3500 light). If you could live with LHD, you could get a reasonable bargain from stock. (One of our regular "German Buyers" will no doubt be along shortly to advise). ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry1956 Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 This is turning a hill into a mountain. The plated weights of my van are as follows. Total van weight 3500kg. Axle 1 2100kg, axle 2 2400kg. Total train weight 6500kg.this is ducato maxi van. Over the rear axles on my van are the twin single beds and water tanks and gas locker. I would say that there is more then enough free weight. As i stated if i can tow mini diggers and i am always very carefull how i load and keep well within the law and safety.towing a car on a trailer would be well within the vans capability.michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig J Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 Hello All I just wanted to circle back and thank you all for your help and input. It certainly made me think hard about my requirements and it certainly isn't straight forward when you start looking at axle weights, towing capacities, GVW's, MIRO, etc. In the end it took a big spreadsheet with multiple options to narrow down my search. I did discover that there are quite a few manufacturers willing to build what you want provided you are willing to wait. In the end I decided to spec the maxi chassis to get the brakes and suspension, whilst giving me the headroom I need to keep VOSA happy. I ended up comparing Globecar, Hobby and Adria and it looks like Globecar is going to be my choice. The quality seems noticeably better than the others despite some of the trim being not quite as 'trendy'. My final decision is which engine and I am currently thinking of going the whole way and choosing the 180PS 3 litre which the maxi chassis gives me the headroom to pick. Hopefully final spec sorted this weekend and then order in for delivery late in the year/early 2016. Again, thank you for your input and information. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Make sure its on MAXI chassis with 2400 kg rear axle.150 should be fine! Many 5 ton + vans run on it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 We have a new X250 Globecar FamilyScout L, 6.36 long on the heavy duty Maxi chassis; it has the following weights: Front axle: 2100kg Rear axle: 2400kg MAM: 3500kg Train (ie towing): 6500kg It can be uprated to a MAM of 4250kg without modification so if you got one with the 'heavy duty' chassis and found that the 3500kg didn't give you enough payload you could look to increase it assuming you're driving licence allows you to go above 3500kg ... I suspect with you being allowed to tow what you do already that isn't an issue though. One benefit of the heavy duty Maxi for towing is that it comes as standard with 16" wheels and disc brakes all round which is much better for towing a trailer/car. We have the 150 engine and it is more than enough power, you could go for the higher one but remember that the larger and heavier engine will reduce your payload. Make sure you check the payload for whatever you go for and get it weighed by the dealer as some manufacturers' stated payloads are pure fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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