Oil leak after new cambelt fitted

[Sundowner]

A year ago I had a new cam belt fitted on my Fiat X250 2.3. It had only done nearly 26,,000 miles but I decided to follow recommendations stating this should be done after the van was 5 years old. Since then we have only done 3,000 miles. A couple of months ago I noticed a patch of oil on our gravel drive. I mentioned this when I took the van in for an MOT and low mileage service and asked whether this leak could have been a result of the new cam belt being fitted. The garage rang me on Friday evening to say that they had traced the leak on the opposite side of the engine from the cam belt. However they needed to remove the cam belt to repair the leak, but the leak had nothing to do with the cam belt and estimated that the repair could cost up to £1600 to fix! Anybody have any similar experiences or ideas. I'm going over to have a look in the morning because I cannot get it out of my head that the two things must be connected, the engine has never used or leaked any oil until now.

[lennyhb]

I don't see how it could be anything to do with the cam belt change as the belt and pulley's are external to the engine block, unless for some reason they used unnecessary force on the main pulley & damaged the crankshaft seal, I would think unlikely.

 

Hopefully Nick will be able to shed some light on it.

[Guest peter]

As the belt was changed a year ago, it should not be the cause as you have stated that it has not used any oil until now. If the garage overfilled the sump with oil it could be forced out of the crankshaft seal at the gearbox end. If it is only a very small amount I would not worry about it, but monitor it to see just how much is lost. If the cause is overfilling, then it should stop once the excess is jetissoned.

The price you have been quoted is extortionate. Go to another garage if the leak is permanent and is more than an occasional drip.

[aandncaravan]

The Cam belt runs 'Dry' i.e. pulleys etc outside of the Oil galleries.

Then again if they removed engine mountings to get to the Cam belt, did they support the engine inappropriately? Could they have damaged the Oil filter housing or bent the sump or whatever?

 

If they did remove something with open access to an Oilway, wouldn't it have leaked from the time you got it home?

 

 

It does sound a lot of money. Why don't you ask for a detailed written description of the fault and remedy?

Taking it to another Garage would be my call.

 

[Sundowner]

The leak is on the top of the engine. They removed the large plastic cover which prevents you from seeing the engine and the oil was running across the top of the engine. They said it was running from the side opposite the cambelt so it couldn't be a fault there. Of cause the oil could have been running in the opposite direction ie. away from the cambelt. It was not possible to spot the leak without dismantling all the ancillary bits above the engine. What puzzles me is they say that the repair will involve removing the cambelt even though it has nothing to do with the leak! I've been in bed all weekend with a chest infection but must try and get over there in the morning to have a look myself.

[hallii]

Something I have learned in my many years of motoring is that dealers will often know EXACTLY what the fault is because they will have done quite a few of them.

 

It might be worth nipping in and asking your local dealer what they think.

 

H

[euroserv]

Hello,

 

This should be an interesting one!

 

On the top of the 2.3 engine there are only 3 potential points for a leak; the breather box which sits on the top of the rear camshaft, the oil filler tube and the rear cam cover which is to the right hand end of the cam cover.

 

If the rear cover was leaking the oil would be running down the side and rear of the engine and would appear to be dripping from the gearbox end. The other two covers could be causing oil to be seen at the cam belt end of the engine but neither item is difficult to remove and replace unless screws snap off; which does happen sometimes.

 

How anyone can estimate a bill of £1600 or suggest that the cam belt would need to come off to fix this is worrying me. What do they know that they are not telling you? Did they notice an oil leak while they were doing the belt and could not be bothered to sort it out then?

 

Under normal circumstances replacing the cam belt will not expose any oil seals or break any existing seals or gaskets; it's therefore very unlikely that they could have caused the problem but they may have seen what needed doing at the time and not told you.... otherwise; how would they have any idea what it might cost?

 

An estimate of £1600 at this point says to me "I don't want the work".

 

I look forward to hearing more about this...

 

Nick

[Sundowner]

Hi Nick,

 

 

Thank you for taking an interest in my latest hiccup. First of all I've been over to have a look at the van this morning. They have stripped the ancillaries away from above the right hand side of the engine and it I snow possible to see what the problem is. The front camshaft cover has a chip out of it underneath one of the holding down bolts. This means that the camshaft cover has to be replaced which involves removing the new cambelt! Apparently the cambelt cannot be used again, once it has been taken off.

 

The servicing receptionist has spoken with his manager and the parts manager and they have discounted the cost of repairs down as much as possible Bringing the cost down to just under £1100 which does include the low mileage service and MOT, This is much more reasonable than the original figure of £1600 which I mistakenly thought was just the cost of repairing the oil leak.

 

However the next question is how did the camshaft cover get chipped? Was it assembled like this when new and if so why has it only just started leaking after 6years and only nearly 28,000 miles?

 

I have asked for the old camshaft cover to be returned to me once the work has been completed, and I might go and bang my head against FIAT's front door once more.

 

I have taken photographs of the chip and will attempt to attach them to this post

 

Thanks to all who have offered advice and particularly look forward to your thoughts Nick,

 

Best Regards Ernie

 

 

 

 

[Sundowner]

I'll just have another go at posting a photograph!

[euroserv]

If the cam cover has to be replaced, this is a big job indeed because the injectors have to come out and the securing bolts have a tendency to snap and the injectors themselves are very difficult to remove.

 

If there had been a defect that was present from new it would have always leaked oil and since nobody else has been working on this engine I am pretty sure that only the garage that did the cambelt could be responsible for the damage. It could have happened while supporting the engine once the engine mount had been removed or from the sometimes difficult removal of pulleys.

 

I think that i would probably be getting an independent motor engineer to assess this and more than likely enlisting the aid of a solicitor if they are not going to put their hands up and confess!

 

If it were my vehicle (not a customer's) and I had broken it i would be shoving some instant metal in the hole and hoping that cures the leak. It should do.

 

Nick

[Sundowner]

Hi Nick,

 

Thank you for your very welcome advice. I know that I ought to engage an engineer and solicitor but it is a gamble as to whether or not any legal proceedings would be successful. The van would be off the road for a considerably longer time and I could be throwing good money after bad!

 

The other side of the coin is will they cause more damage while fixing the leak!

 

I liked your idea of using instant metal and would have used it myself if had been available 40 years ago when I maintained my own van! I did suggest the same cure myself this morning but was not taken seriously.

 

The garage is an official Fiat repairer and incidentally the mechanic who fitted the cambelt is no longer in their employ. By the way, I didn't have the pulleys replaced when the cambelt was fitted a year ago, I reckoned that they should last a lot longer than 25,000+ miles.

 

 

 

Did my email with the photograph reach you? I tried to attach it to my post but failed miserably. Thanks for your interest and advice, rgds. Ernie

 

[euroserv]

Yes, I got your picture last night. It clearly shows a broken threaded boss on top of the cam cover and is as much a smoking gun as i have ever seen.

 

At the gearbox end of the engine on top of the cam covers there are a pair of blanking screws with hex socket heads; one on top of each camshaft. These plugs are only removed when changing the cam belt and two locking pins are screwed into them to ensure/check that the camshafts do not move. Under no other procedure would these plugs be removed and so the garage that did this job are the only likely candidates for either damaging the boss or at the very least would have been the first and only people to have noticed a crack in it. They have either damaged it while inserting/removing the locking pin or it 'fell apart' during the operation. Either way it is their negligence that is costing you another cam belt at the least and them that have damaged it at the worst. They knew about it at the time!

 

I suggest that they consider the use of aluminuim repair putty rather more seriously or get ready to supply the replacement belt free.

 

Are you saying that you had the belt changed but not the two tensioners/pulleys? Not at all advisable, in fact i cannot imagine any workshop advising or agreeing to such a thing! The pulleys are normally supplied in a kit with the belt from either Fiat or an after-market supplier and are far more likely to fail than the belt!

 

I strongly suggest that you dig your heels in and get the whole job done for nothing. Removing the injectors and replacing the cover is a big job and has potential for much greater expense and difficulties down the line. It should not be considered if a repair is remotely possible.

 

 

[Sundowner]

Good morning Nick,

 

I apologise for the delay in responding to your extremely helpful and informative post. I did telephone the garage yesterday, armed with the new knowledge that you supplied and they promised to ring me back! Needless to say, this did not happen, so I rang again this morning and have made an appointment with the servicing manager tomorrow morning. What I would like to know is do you have any objection to my taking copies of your advice with me? I don't want to make your life difficult in any way and will trim the copies to leave out names.

 

I am concerned about your comment regarding the pulleys and am wondering if I can do a deal with them and have new ones fitted, if they can be trusted to do the job. Who would be responsible if the aluminium repair putty does not cure the leak? Sorry, I'm virtually thinking out loud while typing this!

 

Once again whatever the outcome I am truly grateful for the generous time and thought that you have contributed

 

Best regards Ernie

[euroserv]

Ernie,

 

No problem at all. No need to remove my details either. In fact you may go further and explain that i am the owner of a vehicle rental firm that has exclusively run Fiat vans for 15 years. We have more experience here on Ducato's than any dealer. I am also a qualified Mechanical Engineer. That said; this is pretty rudimentary stuff and leaves little to the imagination as to what has occurred.

 

The kind of repair putty that we use on aluminium parts is very effective. The area around the damage would need to be thoroughly cleaned to leave no oil residue at all. The original screw should be gently put back into its hole and then a dollop of the putty pushed around the broken boss, smoothed out over the cleaned area of the cam cover for about 25mm at a thickness of about 2mm and pressure applied so that it comes into firm contact with the small amount of exposed thread on the screw. It depends on the product in question but before it goes hard the screw should be tightened a little more and left to fully harden. The product that we use takes about half an hour to go off. I would leave it over-night to be completely sure that it has hardened fully before running the engine. You should know within a few miles if it has been successful, and i would be surprised if it has not.

 

This is potentially a lifeline for the garage and they would be stupid not to try it.

 

Best of luck,

 

Nick

[Sundowner]

Hi Nick,

 

Sorry for the long silence, but it is only now that I have something positive to report (I think).

I made an appointment with the parts/service manager (armed with your advice) and he would not accept any responsibility for the damage. He also became irate about "these people who give advice over the internet", and said he intended to contact you direct.

 

Eventually he offered to send me two quotes, one using your suggested quickfix method, the other involving fitting a new camshaft cover. He said that in both cases it would require a new cam belt as the one fitted was contaminated by the oil leak. As I was concerned by your comments about the pulleys, I came home and waited for the two quotes. This happened on Friday 29th. May.

 

After repeated phone calls in which I spoke to the service receptionist and was told that the quotes would be sorted out, I went back on the morning of Thursday 4th. May. and "shouted at them". In spite of their denials, I made it abundantly clear that I regarded them solely responsible for the damage. It transpired that the manager and receptionist had not discussed this matter at all. There were reasons for this, end of the month figures etc. however, sadly one of them was a funeral.

 

The manager then offered to quickfix the leak for free and when I asked about the contaminated cam belt he said that he was misinformed about the contamination and the cam belt was fine. If the fix failed we would discuss the matter further. I collected the van yesterday afternoon, paid for the service and MOT only. I drove home and the fix appears to have been successful. I asked them to leave the protective plastic cover off so that I could watch out for any leaks and to be fair all appears well and looking at the design of the top of the engine the cam belt should be free of oil contamination. However I have no paperwork that mentions the damage and suspect that there will be a cover up. The only evidence I have are the photographs that I took of the damage. The receptionist did say he would send me an email but I'm not holding my breath! My concern now is that if everything else is OK the pulleys could be a weak point! I am relieved to have the van back safely on my drive.

 

Once again, thank you so much for your advice, I only hope that this will not cause you any problems,

 

Best Regards, Ernie

 

 

 

 

[MagHal]

I know this sounds like a long shot and you may think it un-related but take a look. Years ago I had a jaguar that used to loose oil through the crankshaft seal. However the crankshaft breather was blocked and that was allowing enough pressure to build up to expel oil. When I unblocked the breather the leak disappeared. The seal was sound!

[Guest frankie640]

Mag&Hal - 2015-06-06 6:44 PM

 

I know this sounds like a long shot and you may think it un-related but take a look. Years ago I had a jaguar that used to loose oil through the crankshaft seal. However the crankshaft breather was blocked and that was allowing enough pressure to build up to expel oil. When I unblocked the breather the leak disappeared. The seal was sound!

I had the same problem with a Volvo 340, it dumped all it's oil on a layby in Germany after cruising at about 80 Mph for a while. Cleared the breather pipe and all o/k.

[euroserv]

Well done Ernie!

 

You should not have had to shout at anyone but it came to that, and you stood your ground. The responsibility for this damage and oil leak rests with the workshop that did the cambelt but the repair (if carried out in the manner that i described) will probably last as long as the rest of the vehicle. They have gotten away with an expensive repair and should feel very fortunate.

 

The tensioner and idler pulley should have been changed with the belt though and this is a worry. I think I would be tempted to get them to do it and they should cover the cost of labour again unless they gave you the choice of whether you wanted them to be changed at the time, and you declined. This should not be considered an option though and it is very poor practice to even suggest that they could be left out. You don't want to spend the next few years worrying about it.

 

There is a strong argument to never go back to these people again, given your experiences so far but they may have to carry out the repair to the cam cover again once the locking pins have been inserted again and this is an area for which they must accept responsibility again and ensure that there are no leaks going forwards.

 

You should also insist that they obtain a new screw for the tensioner from Fiat. These are not supplied in any of the cambelt kits but are stretch bolts that cannot be used again. They are only about £1.50 but absolutely must be changed!

 

 

Nick

 

 

[Sundowner]

 

 

Hi Nick,

 

Thank you for your continued support, I've emailed you a picture of the repair (I still haven't mastered attaching a picture to these posts). I've done about 30 miles and all seems well so far.

 

With reference to the pulleys, I have to hold my hands up to not having them changed to a certain extent.

I found it hard to believe that a cam belt needed changing after only 26,000 miles but decide to play safe and go ahead last year - the van was then five years old. However, whereas I could be persuaded that a belt might deteriorate in this period of time /mileage, the (metal?) pulleys should last through at least the lifetime of two cam belts! When I booked it in last year, I expressed this belief to the receptionist and he went along with my opinion. In retrospect, the workshop staff should have picked up on this, but during our "discussions" over the last fortnight the service manager said that they were "following my instructions".

 

I'm debating as to whether or not I should try and do a deal with them in getting the job done properly, especially as when the service manager originally denied responsibility for the oil leak, he claimed that it was not necessary to use the locking pins to change a cam belt!

 

As always, I look forward hopefully to your continued advice and am indeed wondering if a trip to Leicester is called for to have the job done properly, that is if you take on "outside" work!!!! ????

 

Rgds. Ernie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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