Guest Peter James Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 KerryR - 2015-07-02 11:46 AM I am so nervous about the weight issue Its something to be aware of so you don't carry unnecessary weight (a good idea in any case), but not worth worrying about. Weight checks on motorhomes are almost unheard of, even then 10% over the licensed weight of a motorhome isn't exactly a hanging offence - especially since your van is built to take it :-D Overloading penalties and risk of detection are only high for goods vehicles (carrying goods commercially and paid on weight) - to serve as a deterrent showing it to be financially not worth risking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-07-02 7:35 AM According to the Ace-related Swift handbooks on their website, the 6-berth Roma model (initially called “Novella Roma”) was introduced for the 2003 model-year. This vehicle had six ‘sleeping positions’, three designated passenger seats (which I presume means seats with safety belts - one in the cab, plus two in the living area), .................. Kerry, how many are there of you? This is, in practical terms, a four person van with six beds. If you only need four berths, why carry the additional weight of two unused berths, that merely restrict your payload and seem to offer no advantage? If you do need more than 4 berths (i.e. beds), where are you going to carry the additional passengers? There are only 4 seatbelts. If you want a workable payload you would, IMO, be better advised to find a 4 berth van with 4 seatbelts, which would have a lower MIRO, and consequently a higher payload within its MAM. I'm not familiar with your proposed van, but travelling with an empty water tank is liable to become quite tedious. You'll have to carry bottled water for any meal breaks en route, and possibly for toilet flushing, and the first thing you'll have to do on arrival is fill the water tank on your way to your pitch. You will also have to empty it, along with the waste tank, and probably the toilet cassette before leaving. This will become time consuming. BTW, I'm amazed the water tank has been left part full by the dealer. The whole system will need very thorough cleaning before use as it will almost certainly be coated with algae and other contaminants. The way it has been weighed is very dubious. Gas cylinders of unknown weight, an estimated half full tank, and an estimated three quarter full fuel tank. No gas cylinders reveal how much gas they contain, fuel and water gauges are notoriously inaccurate as a way of telling how much they, actually, contain. My guess would be that if the fuel tank were brimmed, and the gas and water removed, you'd have more payload than you presently think, but unless weighed in that condition you won't know. The "standard" weight allowance for an adult is 75kg, and for a child I think 50kg. It would be more use to weigh yourselves in your normal clothes and use you actual combined weights but, on the basis of the dealer's guesstimate of payload, and using just the above allowances, you're looking at 250kg for occupants, leaving you with only 130kg for everything else (food, clothing, drinks, toys, bikes, bedding, books, levelling ramps, mains cable etc etc) and I'm afraid I just don't think it will work. If it doesn't, it will cost you a lot more to change to a van that will, than it will cost you to back out of the deal now even if the dealer is entitled to keep your deposit. I think it would be worthwile weighing both yourselves and all your gear before you finalise this deal. I think it is very finely balanced indeed. Sorry to be a Jeremiah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Just remembered my one and only experience of being called to a weighbridge with my van in the 6 years I've had it. It was on the way to Dover. My van looks like an ordinary white van on the outside and I was beckoned in with the goods vehicles. I opened the side door, the VOSA man glanced inside, said 'Oh its a motorhome - you can carry on' - didn't even weigh it even though he had already stopped me. Come to think of it I don't know anyone with a motorhome that has been weighed in an official check? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 A 2004/2005 Ace Roma was built on a Fiat Ducato 18 long-wheelbase “Maxi” chassis with 2.8litre motor. Its weight maxima were MTPLM = 3850kg, Gross Train Weight = 5500kg, Front Axle = 1850kg, Rear Axle = 2120kg. I don’t know if ‘down-plating’ to 3500kg would impact on the Gross Train Weight (incidentally Swift recommended that a Roma should not be used for towing), but it should have no effect on the axle weight limits. Gas-bottle carrying-capacity was said to be 2 x 7kg canisters, fresh-water tank and waste-water tank capacities were respectively 100 litres and 80 litres. Sleeping arrangements comprised an overcab double bed, a transverse rear double bed over a fair-sized garage and a double dinette that could be converted into a double bed. The forward-facing part of the dinette was fitted with seat belts. A Roma is tall (over 3m) but not particularly long (6.99m) and, although the rear garage layout could potentially cause a lot of weight to be placed on the rear axle (eg. if one were smuggling gold bullion), in normal use the standard long-wheelbase Maxi chassis means that axle weight limits are very unlikely to be an issue. Assuming that the 3120kg figure provided by the dealer is accurate, it ought to be practicable to operate the motorhome legally at 3500kg MTPLM without too much compromise. KerryR’s plan to load the vehicle for a weekend trip and reweigh it in that state makes excellent sense and I’d be tempted to fill the fresh-water tank before weighing as (as Brian has said) always travelling with an empty tank will be a bugbear. Driver/passenger weights (and the number of passengers) will affect motorhome weight-limit calculations and are mentioned here: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/Motorhomes/Articles/Practical-Advice/Motorhome-payload/_ch1_ft1015_pg1 My wife and I ‘save’ about 30kg between us over the suggested 2 x 75kg adult weights, but extreme cases can produce extreme effects... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-07-03 7:24 AM “Maxi” chassis .......Gross Train Weight = 5500kg, Front Axle = 1850kg, Rear Axle = 2120kg. .. Is that a Maxi chassis? My Maxi chassis is Gross Train Weight = 6500kg, Front Axle = 2100kg, Rear Axle = 2400kg. (but its a 2008 built model) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Peter James - 2015-07-03 7:58 AM Derek Uzzell - 2015-07-03 7:24 AM “Maxi” chassis .......Gross Train Weight = 5500kg, Front Axle = 1850kg, Rear Axle = 2120kg. .. Is that a Maxi chassis? My Maxi chassis is Gross Train Weight = 6500kg, Front Axle = 2100kg, Rear Axle = 2400kg. (but its a 2008 built model) The weights I quoted come from Swift’s Ace technical handbooks and would be the norm for a motorhome built on a Fiat Ducato LWB “Maxi” chassis in 2004/2005. The “Roma” model continued to be built after Ducato X250 was introduced in mid-2006 and the 2008 Ace handbook quotes MTPLM = 4005kg, Gross Train Weight = 6505kg, Front Axle = 2100kg, Rear Axle = 2400kg. An X250 Roma was substantially different from the preceding version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-07-03 8:22 AM Peter James - 2015-07-03 7:58 AM Derek Uzzell - 2015-07-03 7:24 AM “Maxi” chassis .......Gross Train Weight = 5500kg, Front Axle = 1850kg, Rear Axle = 2120kg. .. Is that a Maxi chassis? My Maxi chassis is Gross Train Weight = 6500kg, Front Axle = 2100kg, Rear Axle = 2400kg. (but its a 2008 built model) The weights I quoted come from Swift’s Ace technical handbooks and would be the norm for a motorhome built on a Fiat Ducato LWB “Maxi” chassis in 2004/2005. The “Roma” model continued to be built after Ducato X250 was introduced in mid-2006 and the 2008 Ace handbook quotes MTPLM = 4005kg, Gross Train Weight = 6505kg, Front Axle = 2100kg, Rear Axle = 2400kg. An X250 Roma was substantially different from the preceding version. Ah, Thanks for the clarification B-) Has anyone here been weighed and penalised for loading a motorhome over its licensed weight? Just wondered what the chances of that are. My experience suggests the chances are very low as they were only after goods vehicles when they stopped me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Peter James - 2015-07-03 8:45 AM...............Has anyone here been weighed and penalised for loading a motorhome over its licensed weight? Just wondered what the chances of that are. My experience suggests the chances are very low as they were only after goods vehicles when they stopped me. I have read such reports, but please don't ask for chapter and verse as I can't quote. :-) It is not common, but there have been campaigns, IIRC around the main holiday times and routes. But I should have thought that the concern would not be so much the risk of being found overweight, as the consequences. As I understand those, depending on the degree of overload, you may be cautioned to be more careful in how you load but allowed to continue, you may be given the option of a fine or reducing your load to what is legal and then being allowed to carry on, or you may be fined and the vehicle impounded. So, not necessarily a bundle of laughs if off on holiday. Given those potential consequences, I'd guess most of us would opt for a preparatory trip to a weighbridge to check our weights. From Derek's research, it seems the risk of either axle being overloaded is quite low, so the remaining concern is whether the van can be operated "as is" with the family and their "goods and chattels" on board, while remaining within its present 3,500kg MAM (and their driving licence categories). I'm sure Derek is right that it can, which just leaves Kerry and her family to decide whether the inconveniences of so-doing are acceptable to them (at least until their C1 driving licence category can be obtained, and the van plated back to its original MAM of 3,850kg). The problem I foresee with that, is how they find that out before they buy the van - which seem a bit of a Catch 22! That just leaves the matter of the number of occupants vs berths vs belted seats, which seems to me open and shut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 overloaded vans: handling affected and braking distance making them a menace on the road. blow outs also more likely.... if anything unfortunate happens probably find out your not insured either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 JudgeMental - 2015-07-03 12:29 PM overloaded vans: handling affected and braking distance making them a menace on the road. blow outs also more likely.... if anything unfortunate happens probably find out your not insured either... Oh do keep up ;-) We are talking about a van that is designed and built (but not licensed) to carry the weight. And they cannot refuse to honour your third party insurance - even if they could prove you were 'overloaded'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Brian Kirby - 2015-07-03 11:29 AM Peter James - 2015-07-03 8:45 AM...............Has anyone here been weighed and penalised for loading a motorhome over its licensed weight? Just wondered what the chances of that are. My experience suggests the chances are very low as they were only after goods vehicles when they stopped me. I have read such reports,. So have I, but never heard first hand from anyone who has been weighed with a motorhome, despite we on here must have hundreds of years experience between us. Plenty of experience of Goods Vehicles being weighed. The incentive to overload is high so I suppose the detection rate and penalties have to be higher with Goods Vehicles. Incidentally my gripe there is that the Consignor tends to under declare the weight to cheat the haulier, and can do so with impunity in Britain because only the haulier and driver are prosecuted, presumably because they are easier to catch. On the continent the Consignor is also prosecuted so has to be more careful. Yet some say British justice is the 'Best in the World' *-) - usually those who are on its payroll *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 I vaguely recall reading (some while ago) that it used to be the case that, if a privately-registered vehicle (eg. a motorhome) was found to be overweight during a VOSA roadside check, the driver could not be penalised as the regulations regarding the overweight offence applied only to goods vehicles. I’ve no idea if this was/is true, but I note that on-line advice seems to target ‘commercial’ drivers https://www.gov.uk/roadside-vehicle-checks-for-commercial-drivers/checks-on-your-vehicle In KerryR’s case the double-whammy to beware of is that, if the Ace Roma exceeds its 3500kg MTPLM, not only is it overweight but a consequential driving-licence-related offence occurs. It may also be worth highlighting that obtaining a C1 driving-licence entitlement ain’t cheap... http://www.totaldriving.net/lgv-hgv-training/category/c1-training/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-07-04 7:50 AM I vaguely recall reading (some while ago) that it used to be the case that, if a privately-registered vehicle (eg. a motorhome) was found to be overweight during a VOSA roadside check, the driver could not be penalised as the regulations regarding the overweight offence applied only to goods vehicles. I’ve no idea if this was/is true, but I note that on-line advice seems to target ‘commercial’ drivers https://www.gov.uk/roadside-vehicle-checks-for-commercial-drivers/checks-on-your-vehicle In KerryR’s case the double-whammy to beware of is that, if the Ace Roma exceeds its 3500kg MTPLM, not only is it overweight but a consequential driving-licence-related offence occurs. It may also be worth highlighting that obtaining a C1 driving-licence entitlement ain’t cheap... http://www.totaldriving.net/lgv-hgv-training/category/c1-training/ Interesting link, Thanks. It says 'They can stop lorries, buses and coaches' No mention of motorhomes. Perhaps explains why they told me to carry on without any weighing or checking when they glanced inside and declared my van (Privately registered Light Goods Vehicle) to be a 'Motorhome' ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Peter James - 2015-07-03 8:45 AM Has anyone here been weighed... Over a thousand views and nobody been weighed then (?) Seems they weigh Private Motorhomes about as often as they weigh Private Cars :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Peter James - 2015-07-07 4:55 PM Peter James - 2015-07-03 8:45 AM Has anyone here been weighed... Over a thousand views and nobody been weighed then (?) Seems they weigh Private Motorhomes about as often as they weigh Private Cars :-D Over a thousand views and nobody has mentioned the fact that one or both of the prospective owners could sit the C1 driving test, then the vehicle could be plated to over 3500 Kg and there would be no limitation on future vans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Ah but Peter! There's two aspects to risk. Probability, and consequence. If the consequence of the event is negligible and the probability low, it could more or less be discounted. If the consequence of the event is severe, but the probability very low, it might be a chance worth taking. Ditto if the probability is high but the consequence negligible. It's when both consequence and probability are severe that we should be worried. Question is, how do we know? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 The DVSA and Police work together. When they target 'holidaymakers' on the A55 near me, they get the Police to pull over caravans, motorhomes and cars with the DVSA doing vehicle checks. I've been pulled over on the A55 coming out of Queensferry up the hill - they stop you at the top. My van wasn't weighed but others were being in the queue to be weighed. It was three years ago I think. I've also been weighed at both Mersey tunnels. First one was to ensure I was under 3,500kg limit for that tunnel, the second one [earlier this year] was to check I was paying the right toll. You know it's happening when you put the money in the machine and the barrier doesn't go up; they then apologise for the delay as in my cases, or a Mersey Tunnel Police Officer arrives. Don't know what happened to anyone whose van was overweight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Not quite true, 747. My advice was to sort out the caravanning problems and change to motorhoming when he has his new licence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 We took our van to weighbridge to see what margin we had as we bought electric bikes for this year to carry on rear rack.. Cost of weighbridge ticket, fully laden with all goods and chattels, water full, diesel full ready for off. Just 5 pounds.. rather than all the ifs and buts and maybe, for goodness get the vehicle weighed in a known condition,, is either empty tanks, or full of gas water and fuel, get a luggage weighing scale and weigh absolutely everything and everyone and do the sums.. overweight is stupid, and liable to be dangerous, leading to possible prosecution, insurance dispute, etc.. just not worth the risk,..what if a tyre bursts, causing fatalaties as a result of accident.! low risk perhaps, be sensible, establish the facts and the make your decision..and enjoy yourself and be safe. tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 tonyg3nwl - 2015-07-07 9:13 PM We took our van to weighbridge to see what margin we had as we bought electric bikes for this year to carry on rear rack.. Cost of weighbridge ticket, fully laden with all goods and chattels, water full, diesel full ready for off. Just 5 pounds.. rather than all the ifs and buts and maybe, for goodness get the vehicle weighed in a known condition,, is either empty tanks, or full of gas water and fuel, get a luggage weighing scale and weigh absolutely everything and everyone and do the sums.. overweight is stupid, and liable to be dangerous, leading to possible prosecution, insurance dispute, etc.. just not worth the risk,..what if a tyre bursts, causing fatalaties as a result of accident.! low risk perhaps, be sensible, establish the facts and the make your decision..and enjoy yourself and be safe. tonyg3nwl I cleared a bit of old scrap metal out of the garage and took it to be weighed in = free weigh ticket :-D I must have had about a hundred tyre blow outs on lorries. As far as I know the only damage was minor and to my own vehicles - torn mudgards etc. As long as you are not already driving to your limits of roadholding/corbnering/braking etc you have some spare margin for if a tyre blows out. Overloading can be dangerous, but in this case the vehicle is designed and built for the weight, so its only a bureaucratic paper exercise. If Insurance companies could get out of paying every time they could prove a vehicle was illegal, they could probably avoid most of their claims. They could say your insurance is invalid because you have a chipped windscreen / cracked tail light or whatever - where would they draw the line *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 747 - 2015-07-07 5:37 PM ...Over a thousand views and nobody has mentioned the fact that one or both of the prospective owners could sit the C1 driving test, then the vehicle could be plated to over 3500 Kg and there would be no limitation on future vans. In KerryR’s posting of 1 July 2015 9:01 PM he said "Ultimately our intention is to complete a C1 driving test...” and in my posting of 4 July 2015 7:50 AM I wrote "It may also be worth highlighting that obtaining a C1 driving-licence entitlement ain’t cheap...” This forum discussion began on 30 June when the Original Poster (KerryR) had already placed a deposit on a 2005 Ace Roma motorhome with an MTPLM of 3500kg. It was rapidly established that all Ace Roma motorhomes of that vintage left the Swift factory with an MTPLM of 3850kg, so it could be safely assumed that the vehicle in question had been ‘down-plated’ sometime in the last 10 years. Realistically, KerryR’s options never included obtaining a C1 driving-licence entitlement before accepting the motorhome. He could either choose not to purchase the vehicle (and, presumably, lose the deposit) or to continue with the purchase, be aware of the limited payload and operate the motorhome accordingly. It’s likely that he chose the latter option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron. Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 KerryR - As you have found out from this forum the question of motorhome payload is a minefield. There is only one official standard that covers the subject and that is the European Standard EN-1646-2. This allows for the weights of Driver 75kg, Fuel 90% of its full capacity, Water 90% and Gas 90% and the weight of electric cable and tools necessary (jack, etc) for the vehicle. From what you say the dealer has not used the standard when weighing the vehicle and so you should ask yourself why not? I would be very wary if I were you. You really need to weigh the vehicle (both axles) empty and as it stands with whatever extras it may have fitted to get a starting weight and then add on the items listed above to arrive at the correct mean weight. You can then subtract this from the gross weight to arrive at the available payload you will have available for all your passengers and clobber. At the very minimum I would suggest a payload of 400kg for a couple in order to allow some future leeway. Again, and as previously suggested, having to constantly worry about weight issues, constantly filling and dumping water, etc, etc, are not to be recommended. You are supposed to be enjoying yourself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-07-08 8:58 AM 747 - 2015-07-07 5:37 PM ...Over a thousand views and nobody has mentioned the fact that one or both of the prospective owners could sit the C1 driving test, then the vehicle could be plated to over 3500 Kg and there would be no limitation on future vans. In KerryR’s posting of 1 July 2015 9:01 PM he said "Ultimately our intention is to complete a C1 driving test...” and in my posting of 4 July 2015 7:50 AM I wrote "It may also be worth highlighting that obtaining a C1 driving-licence entitlement ain’t cheap...” This forum discussion began on 30 June when the Original Poster (KerryR) had already placed a deposit on a 2005 Ace Roma motorhome with an MTPLM of 3500kg. It was rapidly established that all Ace Roma motorhomes of that vintage left the Swift factory with an MTPLM of 3850kg, so it could be safely assumed that the vehicle in question had been ‘down-plated’ sometime in the last 10 years. Realistically, KerryR’s options never included obtaining a C1 driving-licence entitlement before accepting the motorhome. He could either choose not to purchase the vehicle (and, presumably, lose the deposit) or to continue with the purchase, be aware of the limited payload and operate the motorhome accordingly. It’s likely that he chose the latter option. I missed that and apologise unreservedly. So does that mean that the expense of obtaining a C1 licence will lead to the death of bigger motorhomes? Will we have a similar situation as in Europe? It seems so. Actually I made a few enquiries about a Class C HGV driving course a few years ago. Apart from any medical considerations, I was told that my experience of driving 5 ton, 28 feet long motorhomes would mean just a short course and a bit of practice in the test vehicle and I could be put in for it very quickly. Any youngster may find that a better option as I would expect the HGV to include the right to drive a +3.5 ton motorhome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Why is this forum so obsessed with weight? There seems hardly a thread where it isn't mentioned. Yet nobody on the forum appears to have ever been weighed, let alone prosecuted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Three reasons, at a guess, Peter. First, for many of us it came as a bit of a shock to discover the vehicle we can drive on our car licences has weight limits. Of course, cars do too - but who weighs cars? Second, because being overweight overloads tyres, suspension, and brakes, so can reasonably be considered dangerous. Third, because the nice ones among us just prefer to live within the law - possibly with half an eye on the potential consequences if we were stopped and weighed! :-) After all, not all thieves get caught, but I don't see that as a reason to steal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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