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Flags and PC Correctness


Dave225

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Political correctness or as I could more accurately describe it, media hysteria rabble rousing, seems to be on the increase yet again. I read that the Confederate flag has been pulled down in Charleston and is being removed from all places of view in the US. I gather even the owner of 'General Lee' the car in the Dukes of Hazzard is going to have it repainted. Mind you I suspect if he does he will find its value has reduced drastically, but there again why should logic get in the way of a good bit of hysteria?

 

Now whether you have opinions one way or another on the US Civil War, it did finish an awfully long time ago and it would appear the latest outburst is due to the nutter who shot up Charleston being photographed wearing the Confederate flag. I do wonder what would have been the reaction if he had been waving the Stars and Stripes and then had gone off to shoot people. Would all US flags have been pulled down? I thought not. However, just to keep things balanced it seems you are perfectly legally allowed to wave the flag of the IS State publically in Britain despite that representing the most vicious bunch of murdering thugs seen for a long time, and are currently active in their despicable work. But if there is a media outrage being publicised out there, it would be wrong of anyone to not join in, even if they haven't the faintest idea of what it is about, or why. It reminds me of the burning of witches in the olden days, maybe that will come back next, after all if the popular media says you are guilty of a crime, then you are whether it is true or not

 

To get back to the Confederate flag, I am not aware if their is any law in the US actually banning its use, although I am sure the PC correct mob will try to get that changed. I also doubt that removing it from use will stop the next nutter doing whatever turns him/her on either.

 

Similarly, our language is now being controlled by the 'PC Police' to such an extent that phrases we used commonly not so long ago are now considered offensive, but other phrases which are offensive, and often preached by Benefit Claiming clerics are allowed in the name of Human Rights and freedom. I suspect soon any reference to getting a takeaway from the local C.....e or a bottle of booze from the corner P..i will result in a jail sentence. As a Scot I get referred to as a Jock or a Scottie or something usually worse, but it worries me not a jot. I would not mind so much if I could see an improvement in the general language but that also has deteriorated to meaningless phrases being the norm. I watched an old documentary from the early 50's the other day and the depth of language used was brilliant. Whole sentences using descriptive adjectives and the word 'like' was totally absent except when describing something pleasant.

 

Ah well, I realise I am not going to see that world again regretfully, but I do worry about what my grandchildren are going to face. George Orwell's Big Brother seems to be ever closer.

 

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I presume you are posting about the flag removed from South Carolina's state capitol?

If so then maybe you should know why it's there, and more to the point what flag it is.

Firstly the flag we commonly know as the 'confederate flag' and the one flow at SC capitol is no such thing, it is the battle flag of north carolina.

It was first flown over the SC state capitol in 1961 to commemorate 100 years since the civil war, it was then decided in 1962 to fly the flag as a 'two fingered' gesture to the civil rights movement, i.e. it was to say " You niggers will never go to a white school, never get on a white bus or never drink from a white water fountain".

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Guest frankie640
pelmetman - 2015-07-11 5:44 PM

 

Cor.....a talking cleavage :D ..........

 

More preferable than talking bo11ocks. :D

Like the o/p apparently. That flag is a symbol of white supremacy and has no place in todays society.

I don't know why he thinks it's wrong to have it removed. A closet racist maybe?.

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Guest pelmetman
frankie640 - 2015-07-11 9:58 PM

 

pelmetman - 2015-07-11 5:44 PM

 

Cor.....a talking cleavage :D ..........

 

More preferable than talking bo11ocks. :D

Like the o/p apparently. That flag is a symbol of white supremacy and has no place in todays society.

I don't know why he thinks it's wrong to have it removed. A closet racist maybe?.

 

But as Colin points out ;-) .........."Firstly the flag we commonly know as the 'confederate flag' and the one flown at SC capitol is no such thing, it is the battle flag of North Carolina."

 

So much like our own cross of saint George, its not a problem with the flag origins, its a problem of those who have since adopted it to represent their cause, such as the BNP or EDL........much like the swastika was originally a good luck charm originating in India 8-) ...........

 

 

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The topics brought up because of the connection with murders in America. .... Shouldn't they be banning guns and making much tighter gun laws instead of banning a bleeding flag which will become even more precious to those who use it for racist reasons

Keep the flag and reclaim it back from those who use it as a racist tool , we did the same with the our own flags when they were used by football nutters back in the day , now thankfully you can fly the flag without been associated with those same nutters , although some of the PC brigade may think it's far too offensive

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My Post not only referred to the flag in Charleston but to other symbols of the Confederate States that are also under 'attack'. It is always curious to me that those that pretend to speak for freedom, always want to try and control what others may wish, and when faced with any form of contrary view, retreat to accusations of racism. They claim that racism has no place in a modern society, but I would suggest it is more prevalent than ever, and in more insidious forms. Again, to me it is curious that President Obama has been in power for nearly 7 years but only after the shootings did he 'jump on the bandwagon' and endorse this move. Up till then he was not interested, yet could easily have removed this flag when he took office.Similarly, the 'protests' could have occurred any time in the last 54 years, but it seems only when a media surge is generated, does everyone wish to join in. That last point was the main thrust of my argument, in that media frenzy is no way to run any form of civilised world. You make coherent arguments to support your case, then action them through the correct channels.

 

On a similar note I read that a college in Oxford is being 'demanded' to remove a statue of Cecil Rhodes from its entrance hall, despite it being there since the start of the 20th century. The fact that Cecil Rhodes paid for the college building to which he/she is attending, and if it was to be all torn down as a symbol of 'racism' then he/she would no longer have a college to attend, seems to have passed them by. Evidently this 'demand' arose because a similar statue was removed from a college in South Africa, so was not even an original thought from the 'demander'. Possibly he/she could transfer to South Africa and be happy, and allow another student to get the place at Oxford.

 

My main point is that these occurrences smack of trying to control society through organised mass protest, something which occurred last century with disastrous results. I also assume that those who feel racism is the blight on all society will be demanding the removal of the Union flag of the United Kingdom as it was flown with pride over numerous colonies, and on slave ships. Many things have happened throughout history, some good, some terrible, but airbrushing them away is not an answer.

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OK, and there is much there I agree with. However, the tension between freedom and restraint is an inherent part of society. In democracies we elect governments to try to resolve those tensions in ways most of us will accept. If we don't, we have restraint imposed on us. There can never, IMO, be rigid structures surrounding what is reasonable, because society is not static: it endlessly evolves.

 

Information technology, in the form of the internet, mobile phones, and the social media they carry, are altering expectations in unpredictable ways. So, many become impatient with the deliberations of our elected representatives, and seek instant results through those media. The age of instant democracy has arrived, and it is challenging the established order.

 

Some think that in a few years we shall be governed by instant referendum, leaving government as no more than an executive, charged with enacting the public will. That raises issues of who is equipped to decide; of whether "public opinion" is a reliable measure of what should be done; of whether they are open to manipulation via mass media and, if they are, how that can be countered within a democracy.

 

I think the confining of the Confederate flag (for shorthand, accepting Colin's point that there is, in reality, no such single flag) to a museum is just a small reflection of that change. People now have much more information, much more quickly, than ever before. But arguably they have no greater ability to understand and analyse that information than previous generations. I suspect that reconciling those two (as I seem them) facts, will bring considerable changes to the ways our democracies have to function.

 

People who rely on popular acclaim to get elected, are going to find it increasingly difficult to tell their electorates they are wrong in the face of all that freely available knowledge. Just ask that nice Mr Tsipras!

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Two weeks ago I went up to Kehlsteinhaus at Berchtesgaden. I have been there before but my wife has not. In the bus on the way up, the commentary was about the history of the place.

 

I was expecting the narrative to fudge the issue of why it was built, but it didn't - it mentioned Hitler, Martin Bormann, the Nazi's & the fact that they planned many of their atrocities in Berchtesgaden, (although probably not at Kehlsteinhaus).

 

That is the history - it happened - it cannot be airbrushed out of the place.

 

I was impressed.

 

So ...... what's the problem with a flag? It existed! It cannot be airbrushed!

 

 

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laimeduck - 2015-07-12 10:08 PM

 

Two weeks ago I went up to Kehlsteinhaus at Berchtesgaden. I have been there before but my wife has not. In the bus on the way up, the commentary was about the history of the place.

 

I was expecting the narrative to fudge the issue of why it was built, but it didn't - it mentioned Hitler, Martin Bormann, the Nazi's & the fact that they planned many of their atrocities in Berchtesgaden, (although probably not at Kehlsteinhaus).

 

That is the history - it happened - it cannot be airbrushed out of the place.

 

I was impressed.

 

So ...... what's the problem with a flag? It existed! It cannot be airbrushed!

 

 

How many Swastikas did you see hanging from public buildings?

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colin - 2015-07-12 10:40 PM

 

laimeduck - 2015-07-12 10:08 PM

 

Two weeks ago I went up to Kehlsteinhaus at Berchtesgaden. I have been there before but my wife has not. In the bus on the way up, the commentary was about the history of the place.

 

I was expecting the narrative to fudge the issue of why it was built, but it didn't - it mentioned Hitler, Martin Bormann, the Nazi's & the fact that they planned many of their atrocities in Berchtesgaden, (although probably not at Kehlsteinhaus).

 

That is the history - it happened - it cannot be airbrushed out of the place.

 

I was impressed.

 

So ...... what's the problem with a flag? It existed! It cannot be airbrushed!

 

 

How many Swastikas did you see hanging from public buildings?

 

Unsurprisingly enough I didn't see any ............ but as an aviation buff, as you, it doesn't really bother me to see them on the fin of a Bf109 or a FW190 or Tante Ju - or is that somehow different?

 

 

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laimeduck - 2015-07-12 10:08 PM

 

Two weeks ago I went up to Kehlsteinhaus at Berchtesgaden. I have been there before but my wife has not. In the bus on the way up, the commentary was about the history of the place.

 

I was expecting the narrative to fudge the issue of why it was built, but it didn't - it mentioned Hitler, Martin Bormann, the Nazi's & the fact that they planned many of their atrocities in Berchtesgaden, (although probably not at Kehlsteinhaus).

 

That is the history - it happened - it cannot be airbrushed out of the place.

 

I was impressed.

 

So ...... what's the problem with a flag? It existed! It cannot be airbrushed!

 

 

Exactly ... If were airbrushing history can we airbrush Britains part in the slave trade that happened over 200 years ago that our governments seems to feel it necessary to apologise for constantly

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laimeduck - 2015-07-12 11:05 PM

 

colin - 2015-07-12 10:40 PM

 

laimeduck - 2015-07-12 10:08 PM

 

Two weeks ago I went up to Kehlsteinhaus at Berchtesgaden. I have been there before but my wife has not. In the bus on the way up, the commentary was about the history of the place.

 

I was expecting the narrative to fudge the issue of why it was built, but it didn't - it mentioned Hitler, Martin Bormann, the Nazi's & the fact that they planned many of their atrocities in Berchtesgaden, (although probably not at Kehlsteinhaus).

 

That is the history - it happened - it cannot be airbrushed out of the place.

 

I was impressed.

 

So ...... what's the problem with a flag? It existed! It cannot be airbrushed!

 

 

How many Swastikas did you see hanging from public buildings?

 

Unsurprisingly enough I didn't see any ............ but as an aviation buff, as you, it doesn't really bother me to see them on the fin of a Bf109 or a FW190 or Tante Ju - or is that somehow different?

 

 

Can you honestly not see the difference between an emblem on historic military machines and the present day flying of flags from Public and/or Government buildings?..... :-S

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

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It is possible to see many different flags flying from public buildings in the UK, for example EU, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, and I find them all offensive. I don't recall seeing the English flag flying so much, and I do take exception to it being used by rightwing yobs and the like.

We should all fly the Union flag, unless we want to make a bid for independence.

AGD

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Archiesgrandad - 2015-07-13 9:41 AM

 

It is possible to see many different flags flying from public buildings in the UK, for example EU, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, and I find them all offensive.

 

AGD

 

 

I find them all rather colourful.

 

 

;-)

 

 

p.s. Came across a new one on a French campsite couple of weeks ago.

I seem to remember it was black red and white and was designed like large chainlinks.

 

It's the flag of the Black Country I was told.

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Guest pelmetman
malc d - 2015-07-13 9:50 AM

 

 

 

p.s. Came across a new one on a French campsite couple of weeks ago.

I seem to remember it was black red and white and was designed like large chainlinks.

 

It's the flag of the Black Country I was told.

 

No doubt someone will complain that it represents the Black Country involvement in the slave trade *-) ........

 

My favourite flag is the Skull & Crossbones :D .............

 

 

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Most days I drive past a house with a flagpole in front garden, iirc the council got hot under the collar over the st George flag being constantly flown, so nowadays the chap has a whole range of flags which are flown, including the county flag.
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pelmetman - 2015-07-13 12:28 PM

 

malc d - 2015-07-13 9:50 AM

 

p.s. Came across a new one on a French campsite couple of weeks ago.

I seem to remember it was black red and white and was designed like large chainlinks.

 

It's the flag of the Black Country I was told.

 

No doubt someone will complain that it represents the Black Country involvement in the slave trade *-) ........

 

 

 

8-) (lol)

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2015/07/13/black-country-flag-offensive-and-insensitive-says-leading-racism-campaigner/

 

 

(..although how it can be directly linked(sorry!) to slavery, when it(the flag) was only created in 2012-13, is a bit of a leap..

http://voice-online.co.uk/article/fury-over-black-country-slave-chains-flag?quicktabs_nodesblock=2

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Black_Country :-S )

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Guest pelmetman
pepe63 - 2015-07-13 1:38 PM

 

pelmetman - 2015-07-13 12:28 PM

 

malc d - 2015-07-13 9:50 AM

 

p.s. Came across a new one on a French campsite couple of weeks ago.

I seem to remember it was black red and white and was designed like large chainlinks.

 

It's the flag of the Black Country I was told.

 

No doubt someone will complain that it represents the Black Country involvement in the slave trade *-) ........

 

 

 

8-) (lol)

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2015/07/13/black-country-flag-offensive-and-insensitive-says-leading-racism-campaigner/

 

 

(..although how it can be directly linked(sorry!) to slavery, when it(the flag) was only created in 2012-13, is a bit of a leap..

http://voice-online.co.uk/article/fury-over-black-country-slave-chains-flag?quicktabs_nodesblock=2

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Black_Country :-S )

 

Why am I not surprised *-) ..............

 

 

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Guest Joe90

Do the lovely peace loving folk that go on the marches celebrating the battle of the boyne yesterday carry a flag at all ?

 

They'll soon put a stop to that, it's only been going on since 1690 though, you can't rush these things

 

:-S :-S

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Joe90 - 2015-07-13 3:06 PM

 

Do the lovely peace loving folk that go on the marches celebrating the battle of the boyne yesterday carry a flag at all ?

 

They'll soon put a stop to that, it's only been going on since 1690 though, you can't rush these things

 

:-S :-S

 

Those marches celebrating the preservation of their way of life have been happening since year dot ... Peacefull parades disrupted by those who deny them the right to march

They will ban em but God help em when they do

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Guest pelmetman

I dunno what that Patrick Vernon OBE is complaining about :-S ............

 

No doubt my distant relatives were Serfs.......they probably dreamed of becoming peasants 8-) ...........

 

At least I have achieved such status :D ..............

 

 

 

 

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"..celebrating the preservation of their way of life and have been happening since year dot.."

 

..really?..."...their way of life.."..."..year dot.."..?

 

I'm not fully clued up my history but I thought this only harks back to around the mid- late 1600s, with the Protestant(and Dutch) William of Orange, kicking the cr*p out of the indigenous Catholics...?

 

...constantly "celebrating" that with "parades" has never been, nor ever will, be "peaceful"..:-S

 

Sorry Dave, crossed posts

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