Lloydcole Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I have been reading a thread on the above, can't find the original so I have made this. A typical estate covenant or developers covenant are 2 very different documents, should yours say for example .. No HGV, Caravan, Boat or Trailer or similar vehicles then in law as the latter wording is not direct, subjective ( the object of thought) cannot be admitted. The document must identify WHAT IS NOT PERMITTED UNDER THE RESTRICTION, if the restriction was to include a bus, a minibus, a motorhome then this is exactly the wording that should be used. A caravan is not a motorhome regardless of any build similarities, much the same as a canoe is not a boat or a military tank a HGV, Law is very to the point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 All very well in theory but a lot depends on how much time or money you wish to expend fighting any such covenant should you need to by dint of a neighbour or the covenant owner complaining? Much easier and safer in my experience not to buy a property with any such covenant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I agree with Tracker. I live in a development with a deed of Covenants restricitng the use of certain things. It was set up by the developer, with approval from the Council, to stop things happening that would be to the detriment of all owners. There are obvious things in there such as not using the home as a business, but of course using a computer as an online seller for example, would not apply. Other things like no sheep, cattle etc are understandable. Amusing ones such as no hanging out of washing are also there, but as there is nowhere to actually hang washing, it is irrelevant. No commercial vehicles, caravans and in my Covenant, vehicles that will not fit the standard garage, are also excluded. This again is to stop someome parking old Transit vans or caravans in the estate. Unfortunately, to my own cost it also applied to motorhomes and I was advised to move mine, or face legal action. Whether I would have had any case under Human Rights Law is debatable and all costs would have course be mine, so I complied. My estate has a professional Factoring Company running affairs so they are quite capable of instigating any legal action, so I could not even rely on the apathy of neighbours. Basically, as Tracker says, if you want to do it, find a place that allows it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 It does pay to read the covenant and try to find out who the owner and instigator is/was as sometimes you can contact him/her/them or their successors and get individual written consent from them waive certain conditions of the covenant for you individually and specifically. We bought a bungalow several years ago that had been part of a self build project and the 'no caravans' covenant was applied to make sure all caravans, site offices etc were removed prior to occupation. I found out from my solicitor the former land owner and asked him if he would be prepared relax the rules for my motorhome to be parked on the drive behind the building line and he kindly, via his solicitor for the right wording, sent me a letter doing exactly that which my solicitor accepted as adequate and all it cost me was a bottle of Teachers! It pays to ask!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 You need to read more than just the covenant, though. In the cases I have encountered the covenants are accepted by the buyer either through a deed of covenant, or their acceptance is written into the transfer. So, you agree to be bound by them, however they are worded. They are also cross covenanted with all other buyers, so everyone covenants with everyone else to abide by them. Under those circumstances they can only be relaxed by mutual agreement, and to prevent a change of ownership resulting in a new owner, who did not agree to the casual relaxation, bringing an action for breach, you'd have to have everyone's covenants formally altered - presumably at your own expense! Ouch! As to whether a motor caravan is a caravan, I'd not want to spend my money trying to run that argument through the courts! First, the word "caravan" (in the example) is not further defined by the word "trailer" and second, it is the second word in "motor caravan". So my argument would be that the word caravan must embrace both the trailer and the motorised variety. IMO, the test would be whether any reasonable person would understand the prohibition to apply to all varieties of caravan. Under the circumstances, I rather think they would. Still, if you're feeling rich and lucky, try it on! Do let us know how you get on. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 what an absolutely selfish attitude towards your neighbors.....A fantastic way to promote social cohesion by parking a bloomin great white box under their collective nose *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 just like the white vans that get parked on the pavements because their real car is on the drive....well, they wouldn't dream of using the garage, would they? until this ever increasing practice is sorted (how are wheelchairs and pushchairs supposed to manage) I shan't worry about our van.... we don't have a covenant like this and I'm away for more than half the year too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Many Covenants relate to land purchased from old estates many years ago. For example, although my property was built in the 1970's, the land was bought with a covenant 25 years before that and the original landowner who imposed the Covenant would probably be dead or the estate company disappeared. Individuals can take action but it is likely to cost them to progress the matter through the Courts. My solicitor advised me off the record that action against my Covenant would only be likely to succeed if the motorhome was used as an additional room for sleeping purposes and even then it was arguable whether the wording in the Covenant applied to a motorhome. Covenant breaches are rarely enforced. It is extremely rare to buy a house without a Covenant as far as I know as every property I have owned has one so the advice not to buy a covenanted property sets up a number of challenges. A buyer might be looking for a long time. Having said that motorhomes parked in gardens do look awful and I would not park one at home if it could not be parked discretely. Fortunately I have space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith T Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 we have anon- non enforceable covenant on our bungalow, and we dp have a driveway suitable for parking car and MH, but we tend to use this for short term MH parking,as I don't really want everyone to know whether we are living there at any one time, or away from home. Its very useful for parking to load up/unload, and for cleaning and maintenance purposes. Lots of caravans and MHs are however parked along driveways in our road on a permanent basis, and indeed some take the full space in front of the properties.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 When I bought my current house, the solicitor and builder's solicitor [it was a new house] confirmed that the covenant that related to caravans also related to motor caravans and that was how a judge would deem it. Sometimes it is the intention of the restriction not the exact wording that a judge will seek to understand. As Brian says, I covenanted to other owners on the estate. In addition to not parking caravans, there was also a limit of 1.75 tons on any vehicle parked on the land. The covenant only lasted for 5 years. Therefore, I bought the house with the side garden and 5 years later, after consultation with the neighbours and Council, parked my van on a newly built drive at the side behind the building line. Neighbourly relations rather than the law governed my actions. It does mean that I am probably restricted to 6.5m of van unless I want to do a lot of shunting in the road. I understand that historic restrictions on tanning and candle making are all being wiped off the property registers when such properties now change hands! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Brock - 2015-07-12 9:21 PM I understand that historic restrictions on tanning and candle making are all being wiped off the property registers when such properties now change hands! Oh drat and double drat! But as long as we can keep a pig in the back garden and coal in the bath we will somehow survive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 In olden days, tanning was carried out using urine and the locals would sell the contents of the p....pot to the tanner until it was banned in the middle of the industrial revolution. Now, thanks to the covenant being lifted, you can happily fill your pot and take it round to the neighbour and ask whether he wants to buy it. And then your wife can rinse you down as I have a feeling said pot will be over your head. Could be worse, prior to urine it was the dung gatherers that made the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Has it come full circle as now we seem to have urine takers and dung spreaders - aka politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 The first house I ever bought had a covenant precluding the keeping of pigs on the property. Apparently the land on which the development was built in the 1960s had belonged to a pig farmer and he didn't want any competition. Nothing about caravans as I recall and perhaps they weren't common enough to be seen as a problem in those days. Our last house, which we sold recently, had its own piggery, referred to on the original lease of 1834 as being "subterraneous"; it was common practice in those days to keep a pig to recycle household food waste. The house was built into a hill side and the privy was also subteraneous. No restrctive covenants at all and not a mention of caravans either of course, which hadn't been invented except perhaps by gipsies - and the term "travellers" hadn't been invented then either. I remember being told at some point years ago that in order to enforce a restrictive covenant the person doing so would have to show that it was still relevant to his needs, so the pig farmer would perhaps still need to be in the pig business. Not so restrictove covenants designed to protect the interests of other residents perhaps, such as those about not running a business or parking caravans or commercial vehicles on the property, but wouldn't the original developer or the heir of his interests need to be the one taking action? I suppose it depends on the precise wording and since you can always rely on lawyers to find a basis for arguing differently, consideration towards your neighbours would appear to be the best way to avoid trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timabob Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 There have definitely been cases where Judges have deemed restrictive covenants which specifically mention "caravan" to apply to motorhomes. I know this because I did some research, when I erroneously thought my property had such a restrictive covenant. Luckily my memory was defective and my property had no such restrictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffy Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 JudgeMental - 2015-07-12 6:21 PM what an absolutely selfish attitude towards your neighbors.....A fantastic way to promote social cohesion by parking a bloomin great white box under their collective nose *-) I must agree I would not like it. That's why I pay storage fees, though I could keep my little 6mtr Tracker on my drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffy Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 timabob - 2015-07-13 5:01 PM There have definitely been cases where Judges have deemed restrictive covenants which specifically mention "caravan" to apply to motorhomes. I know this because I did some research, when I erroneously thought my property had such a restrictive covenant. Luckily my memory was defective and my property had no such restrictions. Don't we call our Motorhomes "Motor Caravans" when it suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Cliffy - 2015-07-13 8:49 PM JudgeMental - 2015-07-12 6:21 PM what an absolutely selfish attitude towards your neighbors.....A fantastic way to promote social cohesion by parking a bloomin great white box under their collective nose *-) I must agree I would not like it. That's why I pay storage fees, though I could keep my little 6mtr Tracker on my drive. Uninformed comments from those who know nothing of where or how others park their own vans on their own property. Please confine your adverse comments to when you know the full facts of the individuals you are criticising rather than brand everyone who does not use storage for their van as inconsiderate and selfish. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Cliffy - 2015-07-13 8:53 PM............................Don't we call our Motorhomes "Motor Caravans" when it suits. I think, if you look at your V5C registration document, you will find that is how it is described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 timabob - 2015-07-13 5:01 PM There have definitely been cases where Judges have deemed restrictive covenants which specifically mention "caravan" to apply to motorhomes. I know this because I did some research, when I erroneously thought my property had such a restrictive covenant. Luckily my memory was defective and my property had no such restrictions. That might be the case in relation to recent Covenants. However, many Covenants were made in the 1920's and earlier when motorhomes didn't exist. Logic tells me that Judges might have difficulty classifying motorhomes as caravans when motorhomes didn't exist at the time Covenants were imposed. I know that Judges will also look at the intention behind a Covenant restriction but that is so speculative there is plenty of scope to argue that motorhomes and caravans are entirely different species. Some Covenants refer to caravans and vehicles with facilities for cooking and sleeping in which case of course motorhomes would be covered. At the end of the day, whether a motorhome can be considered to be a caravan depends on the precise wording of the Covenant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Tracker - 2015-07-13 8:58 PM Cliffy - 2015-07-13 8:49 PM JudgeMental - 2015-07-12 6:21 PM what an absolutely selfish attitude towards your neighbors.....A fantastic way to promote social cohesion by parking a bloomin great white box under their collective nose *-) I must agree I would not like it. That's why I pay storage fees, though I could keep my little 6mtr Tracker on my drive. Uninformed comments from those who know nothing of where or how others park their own vans on their own property. Please confine your adverse comments to when you know the full facts of the individuals you are criticising rather than brand everyone who does not use storage for their van as inconsiderate and selfish. Thanks. I assumed that the Judge had his tongue in his cheek, even though Cliffy might not have realised it. And Cliffy has made a perfectly reasonable point, hasn't he? If parking a MH at home would be an obtrusive eyesore for your neighbours and there are affordable storage options elsewhere, why not consider your neighbours, even if there isn't a restrictive covenant forcing you to do so. He certainly wasn't "branding everyone" and if anyone is getting unnecessarily personal in his comments I suggest that in this case it's not them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timabob Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Unfortunately many new developments still contain the "no caravans" restrictive covenants. There is of course scope to argue that motorhomes are not caught by this covenant, but it will depend upon the judge to interpret the covenant and as I've said before, there have been recent cases where the courts have decided that motorhomes are "caravans" for this purpose. Surely the sensible approach is to talk to neighbours and get their consent if you have such a covenant. If you can't get consent then off site storage must be the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 timabob - 2015-07-14 9:05 AM Unfortunately many new developments still contain the "no caravans" restrictive covenants. There is of course scope to argue that motorhomes are not caught by this covenant, but it will depend upon the judge to interpret the covenant and as I've said before, there have been recent cases where the courts have decided that motorhomes are "caravans" for this purpose. Surely the sensible approach is to talk to neighbours and get their consent if you have such a covenant. If you can't get consent then off site storage must be the way to go. Most people are not aware of the precise terms of Covenants and many do not abide by them. I live in a seaside town where just about every house has a boat yet there are restrictions against storing boats in the Covenants. Many houses also have motorhomes yet there are no problems probably because their properties are large enough to store their "vehicles" unobtrusively. If you ask neighbours for consent they might object but if you don't they probably won't realise a Covenant exists in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 timabob - 2015-07-14 9:05 AM Unfortunately many new developments still contain the "no caravans" restrictive covenants. There is of course scope to argue that motorhomes are not caught by this covenant, but it will depend upon the judge to interpret the covenant and as I've said before, there have been recent cases where the courts have decided that motorhomes are "caravans" for this purpose. Surely the sensible approach is to talk to neighbours and get their consent if you have such a covenant. If you can't get consent then off site storage must be the way to go. we are looking at moving to south coast (again).. next spring when Mrs Mental just might retire *-) I would never dream off looking at a new build as don't want the potential hassle. If there is no room to keep van off road, preferably down side or round back I don't consider the property. When I view a house and intend to make an offer, I knock up the neighbors and introduce ourselves,. primarily to get some local feedback and to get the measure of them....Good neighbors as we have here in London worth their weight in gold..not to consider them I find astonishing to be honest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 JudgeMental - 2015-07-14 9:23 AM .Good neighbors as we have here in London worth their weight in gold..not to consider them I find astonishing to be honest! Absolutely right Eddie! Every home we have ever had - and we have had a few - has had space to discreetly park a motorhome or caravan well behind the building line and every time I have spoken to the neighbours and showed them our van before buying. Nobody has ever objected once given our reassurance that it will be discreet and not interdfere with light or aesthetics. This alone has made our home search quite difficult over the years each time but I wouldn't do it any other way. Although most neighbours has been great there are always some who are not and it always a shame when some of them have not shown similar consideration for their neighbours in some of their activities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.