Gypsy Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 We have a van conversion with just two belted seats. A we take a grandchild away with us from time to time is it necessary to have another belt fitted? This would have to be a lap belt for a side facing seat. I have had conflicting advice about this and would really appreciate knowing the legal requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 Hi Gypsy - welcome to the forum. As for the legal standpoint, I believe you can transport your grandchild in it without a seat belt if you wish. Don't forget to ensure that your insurance company knows you are taking passengers though, some ask how many belted seats there are and I assume from this, that this number is all they are 'insuring' you for, if you go over this number and have to make a claim they may not pay out. Although our's is a pure 2 berth van, we do have 4 belted seats and I always tell the insurance company that we may have driver and 3 passengers to be safe. I'd suggest the first thing you do is a search of the forum putting "seat belts" (without the quotes) into the search - top right of screen, make sure you select 'one year' for the date limit. This will bring up quite a few postings on the subject which should give you an idea of whether or not you want to do it, not whether it's legal. Mel B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 There was a very similar thread recently about side facing seat and lap belts. The overall consensus was that you are not allowed to have seat belts on side facing seats and even if it were allowed it is most definitely not advisable because the seat belts in side facing seats cause far more serious injuries. I beleive you can NOT transport young people in any vehicle without apropriate restraints since new legislation came in a couple of weeks ago. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 Dave Yup, I think you're right, however, Gypsy didn't say how old the grandchild is ... could be 16 and 6ft tall!!!! :-> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 Fair point Mel, didn't think of that one. Gypsy, I've dug out the old thread and brought it forward for you. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gypsy Posted October 28, 2006 Author Share Posted October 28, 2006 Thanks for "digging up the old thread" - but where do I find it? Sorry to be a berk but I haven't quite sussed this forum out yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gypsy Posted October 28, 2006 Author Share Posted October 28, 2006 OK, I've just found this, dated March 2006. It obviously excludes the new legislation. Any lawyers out there willing to express some sort of a view? Without prejudice, of course! "There's been a post on another forum I use about rear seat belts. The person involved has contacted the MoT people and the Department of Transport and got the following responses : From VOSA (the MoT people) : "As far as the MOT test is concerned, there are no requirements for forwardfacing rear seats in a motorhome to be fitted with seatbelts.However rules on the legality of people travelling in a vehicle withoutseatbelts can only be answered by the Department for Transport in London" And from Department for Transport: "There is no current legal requirement to have seat belts fitted to sidefacing seats, or seats that make up the accommodation area in motor caravans, which are normally used only when the vehicle is stationary and are not designated as travelling seats. Seat belts are not designed to be used with side-facing seats and, although it is not illegal to use them, with or without seat belts, we would not advise that they are used. Seat belts on these seats may help to prevent the wearer being thrown around the vehicle or from being ejected, but in a frontal crash they can increase injury risk by subjecting vulnerable parts of the body to higher loads than belts used on forward facing seats. Our advice is that passengers are safest in a forward or rearward facing seat equipped with a lap belt or, preferably, a three-point belt. Any seat belts fitted must comply with the latest British or European standards and be marked accordingly with either the 'e', 'E' or BS 'Kitemark'. The seat belt anchorage points should also be designed so that they will be capable of withstanding the high forces of an impact. We strongly recommend that they are installed professionally by qualified persons (such as at a commercial garage or seat belt specialist). Seat belt wearing regulations require all seat belts to be worn where they are fitted. You also ought to be aware that if the police see people being carried in the rear of a vehicle in what they consider to be a dangerous manner, then they have powers that will enable them to prosecute. They do use this to deal with adults or children not using seat belts in the rear of vehicles."" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 Hi gypsy, the thread is titled "Child seats and zero seat belts and is now on page one. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madguy4 Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 Hi all. Please do not take offence to this as i do not want to upset anybody.......However....surely comonsense should tell you that if your carrying someone then they should have a seatbelt......im not saying that there is anything wrong with your driving but there are 36 million other car drivers not to metion lorry's vans buses, and so on.....it only take one muppet to cause an accident then this conversation will be a bit pointless....why not just get a seat belt fitted then there isnt any worry.... Sorry but my brother in law was killed not wearing a seatbelt....i wouldnt want to hear of it happening to anyone else......it probley cost's £200. max to have a belt fitted....how much is your granchild worth to you.... Sorry if this seems to strong...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gypsy Posted October 29, 2006 Author Share Posted October 29, 2006 Thanks for your strong post, Madguy4. No offence at all - in fact I appreciate the sentiments you express. I also agree with all you write, but my problem is that I only have a side facing seat available to be belted, and it can only be a lap belt due to the absence of a suitable high level anchorage for a chest belt. Investigating this matter it seems that lap belts are dangerous for young children particularly on side facing seats. But if it is illegal to carry our granddaughter (age 7) without a booster seat and a belt (? new legislation) shall I have one fitted just to be legal even if it may cause her more physical damage in an RTA than if she is just unbelted in the back? This is a dilemma that I do not enjoy but also one which I should not avoid or even ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 Did you have a look at the other thread yet Gypsy? The important info is in page 1 of that thread. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrie w Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 *-) Hello all, interesting points of view andI'm still a little confused! Does anyone know the legalility for camper vans in the France laws concerning side seats? We always ensure our grand-daughter sits (in a child seat in the rear passenger seat which has a seat-belt; but that means two of us have to use the side seats without! Any ideas of the laws both in UK and Europe? Barries lady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gypsy Posted October 30, 2006 Author Share Posted October 30, 2006 Thanks for this, Dave. I have now had time to read this thread through and have come to the conclusion that the best thing to do is to have a lap seat belt fitted to a side facing seat. My wife will use that when we are toting a grandchild, and the grandchild will sit in the passenger seat next to me, up front, using a booster seat if necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Sorry, Gypsy, that's a really bad idea. As the quote from the DforT earlier in this thread indicates, lap belts (indeed ANY belt) on a side-facing seat is positively dangerous to the wearer in a crash, subjecting the waist and stomach region to sideways forces it just is not designed to take, resulting in potentially fatal internal injuries. Remember - a small dog (that's SMALL!) takes on the weight of a baby elephant in a crash at just 30 mph. I'm afraid that if you want to carry three persons in a vehicle built for just two, then you have to modify it. A rear facing seat is simplets and safest - and a lap belt is adequate here, since the major g-forces will occur in a frontal crash, forcing the seated person into the seat. Be aware that your insurers are likely to take a dim view of what they will see as carrying excess numbers of people. Sometimes it's unavoidable, but it's best to look at all other alternatives first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gypsy Posted October 30, 2006 Author Share Posted October 30, 2006 That settles it for me, Mel E, and thank you. I will have a slight alteration made to create a forward facing rear seat, lap belt that, and all should be hunky dorey. 'Nuff said!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Gypsy, A rear-racing seat would be much better - and safer - if you're planning only on a lap belt. Alternatively, get a frame made up so that you can fit a full lap and diagonal belt with the frame screwed through the van floor and a vertical post welded with reinforcing to theis frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymer694 Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 [QUOTE]Dave Newell - 2006-10-28 9:37 PM Hi gypsy, the thread is titled "Child seats and zero seat belts and is now on page one. D.[/QUOTE] Yes, that was my post. So far I've had a few people come back to me with quotes to remove on bench and add a four seater dinnette. The cheapest quote so far is £2500!!! Which for a 1990 Hymer isn't cheap. Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 Really not sure on all this, if you had a frame made up and seat belt fitted does that have to be to an approved standard? Certainly all new vehicles have to have type approval nowdays and that includes seatbelts and anchorage points doesn't it? There is another option of course, change the van to one that is satisfactory for all the 'jobs' you are doing. Bas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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