Refillable gas bottles

[lennyhb]

As for the different makes, the most popular are Gaslow, Gas-it & Stako are all made in the same factory in Poland, Alugas are German manufactured Aluminum cylinders.

 

We have 2 x 23kg (26Lt) Alugas cylinders we refill them 3 to 4 times a year, once you have had re-fillables you will never go back to exchange bottles, although the cost can be recovered over a fairly short time it is more about convenience, not having to lug heavy bottles about and more importantly being able to get gas in any country.

[Archiesgrandad]

We did buy from Gasit, and we bought both the filler adaptors and the Calor adaptor, I think it cost about 30 quid.

AGD

[p0930]

I note no one has mentioned the sheer convenience of a refillable system, for example I do not have to wait unti a cylinder is empty, I can go in to to filling station and top up my bottle, secondly, I do not have to Hepburn a heavy cylinder into the can every time I fill up. No more fighting with screw in connectors once bottle in the locker. I too bought a Gasit system at £165 and I reckon it has paid for itself already.

[Guest Joe90]

p0930 - 2015-08-13 2:58 PM

 

I note no one has mentioned the sheer convenience of a refillable system, for example I do not have to wait unti a cylinder is empty, I can go in to to filling station and top up my bottle, secondly, I do not have to Hepburn a heavy cylinder into the can every time I fill up. No more fighting with screw in connectors once bottle in the locker. I too bought a Gasit system at £165 and I reckon it has paid for itself already.

 

Err, several contributors have mentioned the convenience aspect. :-S :D

 

But I had forgotten how screwing a pol connector always seemed to be a challenge :D though I could be ham fisted.

[Dave R1664232361]

A lot of people on this thread keep referring to costs with several talking about payback time.

My van has an 11 kg refillable for the gas services with all electrical appliances including TV, Sat system, etc. running off of 12 volts, maintained by a 100W solar panel (already fitted when bought).

With LPG being less than 60p a litre and readily accessible and the price of using EHU on sites being in excess of £2.50 per night, running the fridge, water heating, etc. from gas is a no brainer with the amounts of gas consumed.

With no need to pay for EHU, coupled with the cheaper price of gas, payback comes a lot sooner.

[lennyhb]

p0930 - 2015-08-13 2:58 PM

 

I note no one has mentioned the sheer convenience of a refillable system, for example I do not have to wait unti a cylinder is empty, I can go in to to filling station and top up my bottle, secondly, I do not have to Hepburn a heavy cylinder into the can every time I fill up. No more fighting with screw in connectors once bottle in the locker. I too bought a Gasit system at £165 and I reckon it has paid for itself already.

 

You need to go to Specsavers, I did. :D

[lennyhb]

Dave 'R' - 2015-08-13 4:24 PM

 

A lot of people on this thread keep referring to costs with several talking about payback time.

My van has an 11 kg refillable for the gas services with all electrical appliances including TV, Sat system, etc. running off of 12 volts, maintained by a 100W solar panel (already fitted when bought).

With LPG being less than 60p a litre and readily accessible and the price of using EHU on sites being in excess of £2.50 per night, running the fridge, water heating, etc. from gas is a no brainer with the amounts of gas consumed.

With no need to pay for EHU, coupled with the cheaper price of gas, payback comes a lot sooner.

 

Spot on we never use EHU, some sites charge over £4 in the winter, we will actually staying on a site next Feb for a month in Portugal be a bit of a change for us only did 2 nights on sites last year, but this one only £8 a night including 16 amp EHU.

[pepe63xnotuse]

lennyhb - 2015-08-13 4:34 PM

 

...we will actually staying on a site next Feb for a month in Portugal be a bit of a change for us only did 2 nights on sites last year, but this one only £8 a night including 16 amp EHU.

 

Steady on Lenny....

..first, a CL....and now this... 8-)

 

..you'll be finding yourself in your slippers and dressing gown, traipsing to the shower block and pot-washing shed, if you're not careful.... (lol) (lol)

[Guest Joe90]

pepe63 - 2015-08-13 5:54 PM

 

lennyhb - 2015-08-13 4:34 PM

 

...we will actually staying on a site next Feb for a month in Portugal be a bit of a change for us only did 2 nights on sites last year, but this one only £8 a night including 16 amp EHU.

 

Steady on Lenny....

..first, a CL....and now this... 8-)

 

..you'll be finding yourself in your slippers and dressing gown, traipsing to the shower block and pot-washing shed, if you're not careful.... (lol) (lol)

 

I can't see Lenny joining the Caravan club any time soon.

[Derek Uzzell]

pepe63 - 2015-08-13 10:39 AM

 

We only ever MHd in the UK..and, like Keith we used a 13kg bottle ( also our gas consumption sounded similar to Keith's). So for us, changing a bottle once a year was no big deal...

 

However......

 

No matter how big an exchange bottle you can shoehorn in (and/or how much "cheaper" than a smaller cylinder it may work out), at some point you will still reach that annoying, "..will this be enough to last us...?.." splosh it about, weigh it, and guess stage! ...:-S (lol)

 

Okay, no problem, you've got a spare bottle......but the spare will run low as some stage..

So you can just end up carrying *two almost empty bottles..

 

If we were starting from scratch with a motorhome, as a complete kit can now be had £160+, although our consumption wouldn't justify it, I'd probably get it bought. ;-)

 

(I wouldn't mind something like a small Safefill bottle for our camping-van..but with them being "loose", I'm unsure of their "acceptably" when it comes to filling..).

 

There have been several variants of “Safefill” composite bottles since the supplier began to trade, with the latest containers being sourced from the Norwegian company Hexagon Regasco.

 

Although the bottles are now available in three capacities (5kg, 7.5kg or 10kg) they all share a diameter of 305mm, which is significantly larger than the 240mm-260mm diameter of the smaller size Calor bottles and may prevent them fitting into a gas-locker designed with the latter canisters in mind (often the case with UK-built motorhomes).

 

The inlet/outlet valve of Safefill containers integrates a UK-norm autogas bayonet connector with a UK-norm propane POL connector. This is OK when the bottle is to be refilled in the UK (or in countries that use the bayonet connector for autogas pumps) but means that specialised refilling adapters with a left-hand POL thread must be used elsewhere. Safefill bottle prices are quoted here

 

http://www.safefill.co.uk/buy-ab.html

 

but a set of two specialised LH-threaded ‘Continental’ adapters will add another £30, or £50 if a ‘Euro Nozzle’ adapter is also wanted.

 

I guess the direct competitor for Safefill bottles is Gaslow’s current range of “Direct Fill” canisters that comprises three capacities (2.7kg, 6kg or 11kg) with respective diameters of 202mm, 246mm and 304mm. Asking-prices are much the same as Safefill’s, but the Gaslow product does not need to be disconnected to refill, has an accurate contents gauge and accepts standard right-hand threaded adapters (about £22 for a set of three including the Euro Nozzle). A potential downside of Gaslow Direct Fill canisters is that a gas-locker’s door will need to be opened to connect the bottle to the autogas pump’s delivery ‘gun’, but that’s equally true for the Safefill container. Frankly, I find it hard to see why anyone would choose Safefill bottles given their price and obvious limitations.

 

As far as knowing how much gas remains in a metal ‘exchange-only’ bottle, Truma and Dometic produce contents-level checking devices for about £60 and £30 respectively. Plainly one could still end up out of gas despite having a level-checker, but you should be able to run a bottle much closer to empty before feeling a need to exchange it. If you knew you would be continuing to use one 13kg bottle that would last a year and that you would only be motorcaravanning in the UK, choosing to fork out for a refillable bottle would be very difficult to justify and buying a level-checker would seem to make much better sense.

 

Incidentally, I note that no mention has been made in this thread that the major manufacturers (Dometic, Thetford, Truma) of modern leisure-vehicle gas appliances are generally unhappy with autogas being used to fuel their products. The Thetford User Manual for my Rapido’s fridge/freezer stipulates that a filter must be fitted if autogas is to be used and Rapido’s own User Manual strongly advises against autogas being used as a substitute for bottled propane (and warns that any consequential problems won’t be covered by Rapido’s warranty).

[david lloyd]

 

Incidentally, I note that no mention has been made in this thread that the major manufacturers (Dometic, Thetford, Truma) of modern leisure-vehicle gas appliances are generally unhappy with autogas being used to fuel their products. The Thetford User Manual for my Rapido’s fridge/freezer stipulates that a filter must be fitted if autogas is to be used and Rapido’s own User Manual strongly advises against autogas being used as a substitute for bottled propane (and warns that any consequential problems won’t be covered by Rapido’s warranty).

 

That's interesting Derek, I assume it gies back to the 'oily' residue problems of a few years ago when the pressure valve changeover came in.

 

Not sure if our new Carthago will have such a stipulation but is there a proprietary, easy fit filter on the market?

 

David

[lennyhb]

pepe63 - 2015-08-13 5:54 PM

 

lennyhb - 2015-08-13 4:34 PM

 

...we will actually staying on a site next Feb for a month in Portugal be a bit of a change for us only did 2 nights on sites last year, but this one only £8 a night including 16 amp EHU.

 

Steady on Lenny....

..first, a CL....and now this... 8-)

 

..you'll be finding yourself in your slippers and dressing gown, traipsing to the shower block and pot-washing shed, if you're not careful.... (lol) (lol)

 

Going to be a be of a shock to the system, my mate talked me into it, the boss is none too happy she no like sites.

[lennyhb]

david lloyd - 2015-08-14 9:23 AM

 

Incidentally, I note that no mention has been made in this thread that the major manufacturers (Dometic, Thetford, Truma) of modern leisure-vehicle gas appliances are generally unhappy with autogas being used to fuel their products. The Thetford User Manual for my Rapido’s fridge/freezer stipulates that a filter must be fitted if autogas is to be used and Rapido’s own User Manual strongly advises against autogas being used as a substitute for bottled propane (and warns that any consequential problems won’t be covered by Rapido’s warranty).

 

 

Dometic used to say on their fridge instructions not suitable for use with Autogas, they now say if running on Autogas the fridge should be serviced more often, both Truma and Gas-it supply filters.

[Guest Joe90]

What I only recently discovered when servicing my fridge that there was an in-line filter that is impossible to see, and I very much doubt the existence of it is widely known, or ever gets changed by anyone.

 

I have actually changed mine, and serviced the burner and flue, and despite the vehicle having been run on autogas for some years there was absolutely no soot in the flue, so I'll continue to use autogas with zero concerns, but perhaps change this newly found filter periodically even though I suspect the original had been there for ten years.

 

The very fact that Dometic did include a filter in a fridge of 2005 vintage would seem to indicate contaminants could be just as likely in bottle gas, why else would they fit one ?

[keninpalamos]

peterjl - 2015-08-13 10:32 AM

 

Archiesgrandad - 2015-08-13 10:14 AM

 

I think it only fair to point out that if you wish to use your refillable gas tank abroad you will need to purchase one or both of the filler adaptors used over there, I think I paid about £30 for ours, and because we opted to retain the old Calor bottle as a backup we also had to buy another adaptor to enable us to connect that in, it cost a few quid.

AGD

 

Hi there are 3 different adapters used in Europe. When I first purchased 7 years ago it was a different adapter for different countries but these days I am seeing a range of adapters whitin one country.

 

I would add that I swopped my system from motorhome to motorhome over the years so once you have the equipment it has a long life to recover the cost if that's what turns you on. For me it was convenience, have refilled everywhere from Greece to Norway so never need to worry about running out.

 

Peter

and here are some of the adapters I have used over the last 15 years. Even in Africa. Mind you they would fill a bucket if you asked them. :D

[Billggski]

My domestic lpg tank and my next door neighbour's auto gas lpg tank are filled from the same Calor gas tanker, so I don't see how refilled or bought gas bottled contents are different.

[Billggski]

Double post

[pepe63xnotuse]

Billggski - 2015-08-14 10:11 AM

 

I don't see how refilled or bought gas bottled contents should be different.

 

Rather than the actual gas differing, I wonder if it's as much to do with the fact that "refillable" bottles and tanks never get cleaned/rinsed through, in the way that exchange bottles do?..resulting in a greater chance of these "oily deposits" building up..?

 

 

 

 

[Guest Joe90]

pepe63 - 2015-08-14 10:30 AM

 

Billggski - 2015-08-14 10:11 AM

 

I don't see how refilled or bought gas bottled contents should be different.

 

Rather than the actual gas differing, I wonder if it's as much to do with the fact that "refillable" bottles and tanks never get cleaned/rinsed through, in the way that exchange bottles do?..resulting in a greater chance of these "oily deposits" building up..?

 

 

 

 

I'd like to see the evidence that bottles get cleaned or rinsed through, but all manner of crap is allowed to get through for autogas.................just sounds like another urban myth to me, besides what do they do with all the bottles returned with partial gas contents, just flare it off presumably, sounds rather unlikely to me ;-)

 

Just serviced my fridge I'm guessing for the first time in ten years, 5 of that on Autogas, and zero evidence of oily, or any other kind of "deposits" even on the tiny inline filter that I did not know, and suspect many others do not know exists, presumably as a guard against contaminates from all sources of gas supplies.

 

 

[pepe63xnotuse]

Joe90 - 2015-08-14 10:39 AM

 

I'd like to see the evidence that bottles get cleaned or rinsed through,

 

 

You and me, both (lol)

..I'm sure I've read an article or seen a video (more than likely posted by someone on here?), showing exchange cylinders getting checked and fettled before being sent back out...it even showed them "re-shaping" those with major dents (ones that I would've thought just got binned), by heating them up and then pressurising them, to "pop" them back into shape.

No idea where it would've been linked from though(..and there's nowt on the Calor site..so maybe they weren't Calor cylinders?)

 

[yoko8pups]

On this subject has anyone ever used, or heard anything about, Alugas bottles?

 

http://www.alugas.co.uk/

[keninpalamos]

pepe63 - 2015-08-14 11:39 AM

 

Joe90 - 2015-08-14 10:39 AM

 

I'd like to see the evidence that bottles get cleaned or rinsed through,

 

 

You and me, both (lol)

..I'm sure I've read an article or seen a video (more than likely posted by someone on here?), showing exchange cylinders getting checked and fettled before being sent back out...it even showed them "re-shaping" those with major dents (ones that I would've thought just got binned), by heating them up and then pressurising them, to "pop" them back into shape.

No idea where it would've been linked from though(..and there's nowt on the Calor site..so maybe they weren't Calor cylinders?)

Urban myth? YES, Popping cylinders back into shape...That'll be Africa Gas, Agadir

[Derek Uzzell]

David Lloyd

 

Rapido’s 2015 User Manual includes a dedicated section on the “Use of LPG”. It’s plain that “LPG” in this instance is referring to ‘autogas’ (“GPL” in French) so I’ve replaced “LPG” with “autogas” when quoting Rapido’s advice below.

 

“Use of autogas

 

Several factors concerned in the use of autogas cause malfunction in gas appliances such as the heating system or the refrigerator for the following reasons:

 

- The technical composition of the autogas product, namely (X%) Propane and (Y%) Butane (X and Y varying from 20 to 80%) is too variable and random, with generally the presence of residual evaporation gases (double compared to liquid bottled gas).

 

- The autogas distribution systems (nozzle or other system) are generally equipped with heating systems to avoid icing up and also, in theory, with a filter to remove the suspended oil or paraffin residues. Unfortunately, this is not always the case and filters may be poorly cleaned or missing and therefore prove useless.

 

All this causes phthalates to appear which can do irremediable damage to the membranes of the regulator.

 

Warning: In view of all these aspects (quality of the autogas, quality of the distribution system and quality of the filtration system), we strongly advise against using autogas as a substitute gas for supplying the gas appliances in RAPIDO motor homes.

 

The repairs are not covered under the warranty.”

 

I hestitate to say this, but I’ve said several times in the past that, when using autogas instead of bottled gas, it would be logical to expect there to be a higher risk of resultant problems with regulators and/or gas appliances than with bottled-gas-only usage. This is simply because autogas is intended to fuel vehicle motors not leisure-vehicle ‘domestic’ gas appliances and it’s reasonable to expect a car’s fuelling system that handles LPG in liquid form to be more tolerant of ‘dirty’ autogas than a technologically advanced fridge or heater that runs on gas vapour.

 

As lennyhb says, GAS IT and Truma both market ‘vapour’ filters (about £30 and £60 respectively).

 

http://www.gasit.co.uk/index.php?_a=category&cat_id=33

 

http://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/its-a-gas-dave-king-explains-how-to-avoid-clogging-up-your-caravans-gas-regulator-4693/

 

http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/145-lpg-gas/96604-new-truma-gas-filter-oil-separation.html

 

[Brian Kirby]

pepe63 - 2015-08-13 10:39 AM

 

We only ever MHd in the UK..and, like Keith we used a 13kg bottle ( also our gas consumption sounded similar to Keith's). So for us, changing a bottle once a year was no big deal...

 

However......

 

No matter how big an exchange bottle you can shoehorn in (and/or how much "cheaper" than a smaller cylinder it may work out), at some point you will still reach that annoying, "..will this be enough to last us...?.." splosh it about, weigh it, and guess stage! ...:-S (lol)

 

Okay, no problem, you've got a spare bottle......but the spare will run low as some stage..

So you can just end up carrying *two almost empty bottles..

 

If we were starting from scratch with a motorhome, as a complete kit can now be had £160+, although our consumption wouldn't justify it, I'd probably get it bought. ;-)

 

(I wouldn't mind something like a small Safefill bottle for our camping-van..but with them being "loose", I'm unsure of their "acceptably" when it comes to filling..).

There is an alternative, which is to get one foreign exchange cylinder.

 

Our vans have all had lockers that take 2 x 13kg cylinders. We use campsites with EHU at night, and we only use the van between April and October, so our gas consumption is relatively low. One 13kg lasts us around 14 weeks, depending on weather.

 

As all our trips start or end in France we carry one Calor, and one French Butagaz, cylinder. Our trips have never, to date, exceeded 11 weeks, so even if we start with one cylinder on its last legs (can happen, by the law of averages, but is not the norm) the other will be unused, and we know the new one alone will last us for the duration.

 

If the empty is the Butagaz, they are widely available at supermarkets across France, so a replacement will be bought at the next one we visit. If the empty is the Calor, it will be exchanged on our return. This way, we never have two near empty cylinders, the worst being one empty, and one near empty, right at the end of a trip.

 

The present van has a Truma duo-control installed, which shows a green light when the service cylinder is in use, automatically switches to the reserve when that empties, and then shows a red light indicating we are on the reserve cylinder, so no guessing is required. It is a non-essential refinement that removes the guesswork, but the previous two vans had only automatic changeover valves, and one only had to check inside the gas locker periodically to see whether the reserve cylinder had come into use.

 

Our first van did not have the Truma Secumotion cut-off system, so the gas locker was frequently opened to turn cylinders on/off, but the second and current vans had/have this so, once clear of ferry/tunnel, both cylinder cocks would be opened for the duration.

 

Might something along these lines work for you?

[lennyhb]

yoko8pups - 2015-08-14 12:00 PM

 

On this subject has anyone ever used, or heard anything about, Alugas bottles?

 

http://www.alugas.co.uk/

 

Yep I have 2 x 13kg (26Lt) Alugas bottles, I did mention them in an earlier post on this thread.