lennyhb Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Need to take Brian's gas usage with a pinch of salt, he doesn't drink enough of it. :D 26Lt (13kg) lasts us 15 - 20 days in France in September at that time of year we hardly use the heating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 I'm with you on that one, but I have a pal who dines out, always uses sites and all their facilities, and I very much doubt even his bog has ever been used, my guess is he's still on his first bottle of gas that came with his van 5 years ago :D Me, up in the mountains can easily get through 10 litres of gas a week, possibly more, love my warmth,and my hot showers, and being cheap skates we use our oven a lot, but it's obviously all down to how folk use or don't use their vans, like you Lenny, I don't "do sites" but thankfully many do, :D The OP will obviously make up his own mind, but struggling and farting about with foreign cyclinders wouldn't be anywhere on my radar, but perhaps some need the exercise, although when one has spent 25 to 60k upwards on a van, why they resist a one off cost £165 for the simplicity of an GPL pump accessible 24/7, against the cost of two Calor cylinders that come in at £132 and cannot be exchanged abroad, or user filled anywhere with much cheaper gas remains a mystery to me ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 To Brian & Derek..:-) I suppose, from our viewpoint, with our style of usage, it wasn't so much knowing (or not) exactly how much gas we may have, as much as the possibility (probability) of not really being able to do a great deal about it anyway... other than prematurely surrender a cylinder(s) with gas still remaining.. Most of our usage was off "formal" campsites and we could be 4-7days+ pitched on festival sites, with no means of replenishing/exchanging gas cylinders.. So rolling up with both the main and the "spare" nearing empty, was far from ideal..and as rare as this may have been, it still highlighted the obvious convenience of being able to just "top up" beforehand. It was never really that big an issue though, as we weren't big users of gas(and we'd sometimes just use up the dregs at home-gas bbq etc before hand)....and also, I suppose once you've accumulated various exchange cylinders and have "managed", it is perhaps slightly harder to justify the switch to refillables... (hence my "...if starting from scratch.." line... :-) I think as Joe-1foot said, refillables aren't for everyone.. and although in our case our consumption didn't warrant them, sometimes our inability to be able to "exchange", did.) (OT- back to that exchange cylinder refurb' article/video...I'm beginning to think it may've been one of those Discovery channel "How stuff Works" type things?...either that, or I should lay off the strong cheese before bedtime! (lol) ) Edit: Sorry Lenny & Joe', crossed your post. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 The following link is to a 2003 CC Magazine article that relates to Calor’s main refurbishment plant. I don’t know if it’s what you had in mind, but it does mention ‘de-denting’ bottles using nitrogen, heat and a wooden mallet (photo on right-hand page). http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/caravanclubapps/media/18898/Practical%20Calor%20Gas%20Feb%2003.pdf The question as to whether or not Calor bottles were always emptied and cleaned internally before being refilled came up in this 2011 discussion http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Gas-cylinder-refilling/25421/ To save people wading through the thread’s several pages I’ll quote from my relevant posting in it. “...I've asked my nearest large Calor Centre (at Worcester) about this and, although they don't actually refill bottles there, they advised me that any bottle returned to a Calor refilling depot is NOT usually drained of any residual gas that happens to be present in the bottle at the time. Basically...bottles that are returned to Calor agents get 'topped-up' on the filling line. I also inquired how often a visually sound bottle would be tested/refurbished and was told that this was done every 5 years." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Thank you for finding that Derek.. Although from what you say, I had obviously misremembered and I stand corrected on the *flushing through, steam cleaning process. (...*with that seemingly only being part of a refurb' process and not for straight forward refills). But at least that link does confirm that they do "inflate" and apply heat, to reshape cylinders... So not a total myth then... :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoko8pups Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 lennyhb - 2015-08-14 12:28 PM yoko8pups - 2015-08-14 12:00 PM On this subject has anyone ever used, or heard anything about, Alugas bottles? http://www.alugas.co.uk/ Yep I have 2 x 13kg (26Lt) Alugas bottles, I did mention them in an earlier post on this thread. And are you pleased with them? Thanks for answering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Yep very pleased and saves 10Kg in weight, they have accurate level gauges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 lennyhb - 2015-08-14 12:30 PM Need to take Brian's gas usage with a pinch of salt, he doesn't drink enough of it. :D ................. Yeah, yeah! :-D Over the past 10 years we have consumed 11, 13kg, cylinders of gas. The shortest one lasted was 71 days, the longest was 103 days, and the average was 88 days. So you're right Lenny, I overstated: one cylinder lasts us, on average, about 12.5 weeks - and 14 weeks was a guess. Mea culpa! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Another thought, although the same tanker fills up my heating lpg and my neighbour's autogas. My take off point is at the top of the tank, for vapour, and his at the bottom, for liquid, which is vapourised in his vehicles. This, in my view, is more likely to pass on any contaminants. This may be where the different advice arises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Brian Kirby - 2015-08-14 6:52 PM lennyhb - 2015-08-14 12:30 PM Need to take Brian's gas usage with a pinch of salt, he doesn't drink enough of it. :D ................. Yeah, yeah! :-D Over the past 10 years we have consumed 11, 13kg, cylinders of gas. The shortest one lasted was 71 days, the longest was 103 days, and the average was 88 days. So you're right Lenny, I overstated: one cylinder lasts us, on average, about 12.5 weeks - and 14 weeks was a guess. Mea culpa! :-D Blimey, never thought I'd ever come across someone who uses Excel, I won't ask what other fascinating facts you keep a record of, the mind boggles Reading this I'm reminded of the time I was involved in clearing a relatives house out and they had all their utility bills going back probably twenty years or so, that seemed a pointless exercise as well, although being dead I couldn't ask why they did so (!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 yoko8pups - 2015-08-14 12:00 PM On this subject has anyone ever used, or heard anything about, Alugas bottles? http://www.alugas.co.uk/ The following link shows the sort of twin gas-bottle installation lennyhb has (I’m guessing that his Alugas canisters are the earlier 3-hole containers not the latest “MV” design) and will give you an idea of the pricing. http://www.autogasshop.co.uk/alugas-lightweight-11kg-mv-twin-cylinder-kit-967-p.asp Obviously a single-bottle system would be significantly cheaper http://www.autogasshop.co.uk/alugas-lightweight-11kg-mv-single-cylinder-kit-966-p.asp but in all cases (Alugas or any other make of bottle) you’d need to factor in the cost of installation (£100?) if you were not DIYing the task and wanted a remote filling-point, and of any ancilliaries like different gas hoses and/or filters. You asked earlier about different makes of user-refillable gas bottles. Some alternatives to Gaslow, Alugas and Safefill are shown here http://www.autogasshop.co.uk/refillable-bottles-20-c.asp and Stako and GZWM containers are also marketed in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 pepe63 - 2015-08-14 1:08 PM To Brian & Derek..:-) I suppose, from our viewpoint, with our style of usage, it wasn't so much knowing (or not) exactly how much gas we may have, as much as the possibility (probability) of not really being able to do a great deal about it anyway... other than prematurely surrender a cylinder(s) with gas still remaining.. Most of our usage was off "formal" campsites and we could be 4-7days+ pitched on festival sites, with no means of replenishing/exchanging gas cylinders.. So rolling up with both the main and the "spare" nearing empty, was far from ideal..and as rare as this may have been, it still highlighted the obvious convenience of being able to just "top up" beforehand................................. I'm probably being slow on the uptake (again!), but I don't understand how you'd get into the position where both main and spare cylinders were nearing empty. Surely you'd empty the main before starting the spare? I don't know whether your van will take 13kg cylinders, but even if the gas locker limits you to 6kg cylinders, would you not carry an additional spare for those circumstances? Shouldn't add that much weight, or take that much space. Or have I missed something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Pepe63 post also had me confused, the fact remains that anyone using two bottles, has really no idea how much remains in the "service" cylinder, unless buggering around with scales and the chance of a hernia holds an appeal. I imagine trying to convince someone that there is a better way to fill up with diesel fuel, the scenario being two options,undoing an awkward connection usually in a confined space, then mauling out and taking a heavy container to the fuel pump, then manhandling it back to the vehicle, of course now being even heavier, then wrestling to connect it up again,.........sounds absurd doesn't it ? or a second option, having the container permanently mounted in the vehicle and merely filling it up directly from the pump, and at greatly reduced cost for the fuel...................no, it'll never catch on (!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Hi chaps.. Sorry, I was unclear.. We didn't "alternate" between our two cylinders as such (ie running each one in turn, 'til empty) as our "spare" was only a little 3.9kg bottle (left over from tent camping), so it was only ever connected up to the van when the main bottle (originally a 6kg,later swapped to a 13kg) had ran out....but we would switch back to the "main" bottle, once we'd been able to exchange it... (We didn't just leave the 3.9 connected, and run that 'til empty, because it was also a handy size to be occasionally used for a standalone bbq or stove when tent camping..).. Hopefully you can now see how we would end up with two, partially used (or occasionally, almost empty?) cylinders. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Indeed I do, but I then wonder why you decided not to take a 7kg Caolr, or similar, as reserve, keeping the Camping Gaz just for the barbecue? I also wonder, if the gas locker would take a 13kg cylinder (or even two), why you opted for the (more expensive per litre) smaller ones? I even wonder what you are doing now, :-) as your descriptions seem to relate to your past practices? After all, if you are no longer using your van as you did, and have possibly exchanged visiting rallies and festivals for visiting aires abroad, might not at least one refillable suit you better than exchange cylinders? If you use enough gas, they will at some point prove a sound investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 The grwat advantage of refillables (in terms of convenience) is so great that I would fit them anyway, even if the gas refills weren't then cheaper to buy. I spent a lot of money on my MH and I'm certainly not going to get anal about saving a few quid on the less-than-£50-per-year i spend on gas. Good luck to those who do their motorhoming on a shoestring and count every penny but I'm not one of them. When I bought my refillables the accepted wisdom was to buy two refillable bottles and only the larger size were available, so I got two of those. The installation cost over £500 but it was worth it. If I was starting again now I would buy one large and one refillable bottle small, to save weight, because we never use the bottom half of the second bottle at all. I top up as soon as practicable when the system switches to the second bottle once the first is exhausted. No point in having a large second bottle based on our touring pattern and the wide availability of refill facilities which we encounter. However I recognise that some people have different needs/options; as in most things to do with motorhoming, there isn't one single solution which is right for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Mornin' (just?) I suppose we didn't really "opt" for the cylinder size as such, rather we just used the cylinders that we had originally signed up for(and paid a deposit/rental on) and which fit our first van('03 Duetto) A couple of van changes later, they did let us have a straight swap from the 6 to a 13 though, (We haven't got Campingaz, both are Calor) Although our previous van would've taken two 13kg cylinders, as stated our usage didn't really warrant that all-up capacity. Also I wasn't overly keen on having to take out, a third bottle rental agreement..? Yes,most of the above is past tense though, and refers to our previous van. After running the last MH ('08 Chausson Allegro), along side our basic little Hiace camping-van/runabout (that just utilises our previous camping kit), we found that, after 12-18months, the Chausson was hardly getting used... :-S ..and the few times when it was, I wasn't really comfortable with it getting unceremoniously dragged on and then off muddy music festival sites, whilst sometimes sitting axle deep in mud, in the interim... (lol) (OT-I've always liked the idea of a simple lightweight(fibreglass?) demountable, sat on a 4x4 pickup..but the OH isn't overly keen). Although our current use is UK only, yes, on convenience alone, one refillable would be beneficial... This is what I have been saying (or trying to?)all along...if that hasn't be clear, then my apologies to all ;-) (with hindsight maybe I could've referred to our 3.9kg as a "Back-up", rather than a "spare"?) (Sorry Stu'.. the above was predominately a reply to Brian's post.. but I do agree with you Re the advantages of being able to "Top up" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-08-15 8:29 AM The following link shows the sort of twin gas-bottle installation lennyhb has (I’m guessing that his Alugas canisters are the earlier 3-hole containers not the latest “MV” design) and will give you an idea of the pricing. This is my installation they are the 13kg cylinders I don't think they are available in the UK. As you say they are the three hole ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 In my posting of 14 August 2015 12:07 PM on Page 2 of this thread I mentioned that my Rapido motorhome’s User Manual warned strongly against using ‘autogas’ to fuel habitation gas appliances. This is expanded on in the latest issue of MMM magazine (September 2015, Page 180) in an article headed “Will fitting refillable gas bottles invalidate the Alde warranty on my Rapido?” The response includes comments from Anthony Pfaff (Rapido), Gaslow, Autogas 2000 and Truma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 You may have noticed I have fitted filters to avoid any problems with autogas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Some of the motorhome brands that now supply a fixed refillable tank either as standard equipment, or a customer option must be quaking in their boots about warranty claims. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 lennyhb - 2015-08-17 3:14 PM You may have noticed I have fitted filters to avoid any problems with autogas. Yes I noticed that, and I thought they were probably Truma’s “Gasfilter” product. Regarding ‘oily’ contaminants in autogas, Chris Wise of Autogas 2000 commented in the MMM article “...No one yet has managed to filter oil out of the gas, but Truma did come close with its gas filter.” I’ve no idea whether he actually KNOWS this from having tested Truma's Gasfilter, or he is just using Truma’s own advertising that claims a “high degree of separation of 99%”. Either way, it’s reasonable to think that Truma’s Gasfilter will be the most effective of the filters currently marketed, though adding a pair to a twin-bottle system will cost about £130 and may not be easy to do (or even practicable) if the bottles are a tight fit in a motorhome’s gas-locker or the locker is an odd shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Mine are the Gast-it ones, never had any problems myself, but I always try to fill up on UK gas. May not always be able to do that now as we will be spending longer periods away, have to keep fingers crossed any filter is better than none. Edit: My last van only ran on Autogas, I serviced the fridge after 3 years, every thing was clean and it didn't need doing, but again always tried to fill up with UK gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Truma bulkhead regulators have been failing regularly since they were first introduced, ( perhaps that's why they've now introduced an expensive filter ) and NOTHING to do with Autogas, loads of caravanners have experienced this, all on bottled gas, more often than not in the UK, and on Calor gas, presumably because it has "oily" residues the same as autogas lol Bailey caravans and others confirmed this and explained how it was 'just one of this things' and that Truma and CALOR did not know how to cure the fault. The fault is cause by liquid carry over some "experts" have said, others say leaching chemicals from the pigtails to the bulkhead regs blocks the regulator, and I'll repeat again, reported by people that exclusively only use BOTTLED gas Here's a bit of "cut n paste" http://www.practicalcaravan.com/advice/28426-gas-regulator-change-has-resulted-in-blame-game (!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 When problems with failing Truma bulkhead-mounted regulators began to be reported around 2005 and were discussed on this forum’s predecessor, I remember highlighting that damaged regulators and gas appliances had been complained about for years in French motorhome magazines and the cause was accepted as being ‘oily residues’ in the gas. The gas in question was bottled gas and autogas was never mentioned. As you rightly point out, when the Truma regulators began to fail (I went through three in a relatively short space of time) the caravan/motorhome would normally have been using bottled gas. Several ‘fixes’ were suggested, including swapping to a Clesse-made regulator that was claimed to be bomb-proof. Truma does not market Gasfilter to protect against autogas, but to protect against ‘dirty’ LPG generally. It’s credible to think that autogas is more likely to be potentially more problematical than bottled gas for fuelling leisure-vehicle habitation gas appliances for the reasons stated in the MMM article (which I assume you’ve read?) and on this forum in the past. If one uses autogas, it might be more advisable to fit a filter than if one uses bottled gas, but it makes good sense to fit a filter whatever type of LPG is chosen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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