Poursay Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Hi allJust back from a few weeks in France where we mixed " Frence Passion" with sites. All the sites came up as reverse polarity on my fuse box. It seems simple to me but perhaps I am missing something but if I buy a couple of van plugs and a short length of appropriate cable, could I just reverse the polarity on the plug that goes into the site socket then connect up to my original lead?Thanks.Poursay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poursay Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 Thanks, I thought it would be as simple as that! But it seemed too easy! Thanks for your early clear reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 If you don’t want to DIY an adapter, they are available on-line (example here) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Europe-Continental-Caravan-Camping-Mains-Hook-Up-Polarity-Reverse-Adapter-Cable-/251508486659 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I would agree, yes, that is how it is connected. In a healthy electrical circuit, reverse polarity presents no problems, unless you wish to dabble into electrical appliances with the power switched on. As you have returned safe and well, after numerous connections to reverse polarity, you must not dabble. I sometimes wonder why an additional source of problems is introduced by adding to the circuit with additional leads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 This keeps coming up, just forget about it and enjoy your holidays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 But how can Mike (Poursay) be expected to enjoy his future holidays when he has plainly been concerned during his recent trip abroad that the Sargent equipment in his motorhome was warning of ‘reverse polarity’ at all the French campsites he visited? The assumption has also been made that, despite being aware of the French campsite 230V outlets having reverse polarity, Mike still chose to connect to them. This may have been the case, but as he has now asked about making up a ‘correction cable’, it could just as easily be assumed that his apprehension was sufficient to dissuade him from connecting to those outlets. The subject does indeed keep coming up, as a basic forum search will show https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/search/query.asp?action=search&searchforumid=all&keywords=reverse+polarity&author=&days=&Submit=Search but if Mike wants to extinguish the reverse polarity light on his Sargent equipment and is prepared to spend a few quid to do this, why should he be persuaded otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-09-01 1:49 PM But how can Mike (Poursay) be expected to enjoy his future holidays when he has plainly been concerned during his recent trip abroad that the Sargent equipment in his motorhome was warning of ‘reverse polarity’ at all the French campsites he visited? The assumption has also been made that, despite being aware of the French campsite 230V outlets having reverse polarity, Mike still chose to connect to them. This may have been the case, but as he has now asked about making up a ‘correction cable’, it could just as easily be assumed that his apprehension was sufficient to dissuade him from connecting to those outlets. The subject does indeed keep coming up, as a basic forum search will show https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/search/query.asp?action=search&searchforumid=all&keywords=reverse+polarity&author=&days=&Submit=Search but if Mike wants to extinguish the reverse polarity light on his Sargent equipment and is prepared to spend a few quid to do this, why should he be persuaded otherwise? I frankly do not care what he does, just pointing out that there is no need to bother about this. Why waste time messing around with something that does not matter. It has now been pointed out to him that this is the case so hopefully he will not let it effect his holidays in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Poursay - 2015-09-01 8:14 AM Hi all Just back from a few weeks in France where we mixed " Frence Passion" with sites. All the sites came up as reverse polarity on my fuse box. It seems simple to me but perhaps I am missing something but if I buy a couple of van plugs and a short length of appropriate cable, could I just reverse the polarity on the plug that goes into the site socket then connect up to my original lead? Thanks. Poursay What puzzles me is that all should come up as reversed. I assume you also have experience of UK sites, or connecting at home, where this does not happen? My experience over a number of years is that quite a substantial proportion of French (and other continental) sites do have reversed polarity, but I would put this well below 50%. Correct polarity is not an issue on the continent, because both "live" and "neutral" are "fused" at the distribution board. OTOH, UK practice is to fuse only the live, so that if the polarity is reversed the supply to appliances and outlets by-passes the fuse. This is undesirable, but not intrinsically dangerous, and as stated above is easy to correct with a reverse wired connection lead. Nevertheless, I think I'd be inclined to ask Sargent Electrical to comment on what you seem to have been seeing. I believe the indication light (either mains LED or more probably a neon) will probably be connected between neutral and earth. So, when the polarity is reversed, a small current will "leak" from the neutral terminal via the lamp to earth, so it will light, whereas if the polarity is correct, and the current is flowing through the live terminal, the resistance of the lamp will prevent any flow between neutral and earth, and it will not light. The current passed by the lamp has to be small, so as not to trip the RCD at the supply point. However, I'm just wondering whether a fault may have developed in your van, or more probably in your EHU cable, that is causing a resistance on the neutral side sufficient to induce some current to flow to earth via the lamp even though the polarity is correct. It can't be much, or one of the RCDs would trip, but it seems to me feasible. EHU cable wiring faults are not that uncommon, and it may be no more than a badly stripped or corroded neutral wire at one of the terminals. However, as the resistance would generate heat, it would benefit from being rectified before a minor fault becomes more serious. I guess it might even be that water has got into in one of your connector plugs. However, this is a pure guess; I'm not an electrician or an electrical engineer. Obvious warning, but unplug the EHU from the mains before investigating! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Quite apart from the safety issue of 'reversed polarity', there is the practical one of some equipment not working at all when the 'polarity' is reversed. In my own case the mains electrical heating element of the Airtronic side of the Eberspächer diesel heater would not work at all with 'reversed polarity'. This subject is constantly cropping up and the best and simplest advice is to make your connection to your 'van the right way round. Irrespective of arguments as to whether 'reversed polarity' is dangerous or not, if your supply is correct at the point of connection to your 'van, everything will both work correctly and be safe. Poursay's idea of making up a reversed lead is more or less perfect and will banish the problem for good (clearly mark the reversed lead as such, so as to avoid any confusion in the future). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 spospe - 2015-09-01 7:37 PM Quite apart from the safety issue of 'reversed polarity', there is the practical one of some equipment not working at all when the 'polarity' is reversed. Please do not confuse safety issues with certain equipment not operating. Unless you can explain how, there is no danger present in a healthy circuit due to reverse polarity provided you do not dabble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 We have a Reverse Polarity page that covers the subject, in quite a lot of depth. It covers the history of the subject, explains why it used to be such an issue but that it is not the problem it was for most new Motorhomes, see : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/reverse-polarity.php As usual for us, it has an alternative perspective, and highlights that the issue can be one of the Home, not just the Motorhome. It tries to explain from the bottom up and has been copied/borrowed by several Manufacturer Club sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brabander Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 In many European wiring systems plugs (for example Schuko) can be inserted into the socket in any orientation. This is not a problem as all modern appliances have no preferred live or neutral connections. The simple and full proof solution available to UK motorhome manufacturers is to fit 2 pole circuit breakers to their motorhomes so that both live and neutral connections are broken when the CB trips. The additional cost would be minimal (a few £) and reverse polarity would no longer be an issue and the additional cost of any reverse polarity detection circuits would be avoided. As others have already pointed out NEVER work on your motorhome wiring system without first disconnecting the external AC supply cable. Never assume that the system is not potentially dangerous by just tripping a single pole CB. Those motor homers who have an older motorhome without a 30mA RCCB (residual current circuit breaker) please get an electrician to install one. The RCCB detects any current difference between the live and neutral conductors ie if there is a leakage within the circuit the RCCB will trip if this exceeds 30mA. It is generally considered that a current in excess of 30mA is potentially dangerous to humans. The RCCB is even more important in motor homes than houses because most houses have a good earth connection. Do not assume all camp sites have this. This means that in the case of a fault a high and lethal current could flow through your body to earth if there were no alternative protection in the form of an RCCB. Remember a motor home sits on rubber tires which are could insulators! The RCCB will not handle current overloads unless the RCCB includes overload protection (RCBO). The best motor homes therefore contain a 30mA RCCB and possibly two CB's, one for the AC power sockets and one for the power supply. Many motor homes (incl mine) make do with only one MCB. Reverse polarity is a non issue and if you always disconnect the external AC power supply from your motor home before messing around with your AC power system you will be safe provided you have the essential RCCB!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brabander Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Brian, In my Swift motor home the reverse polarity light also came on in quite a few continental camp sites. When the camp site connection used Schuko sockets I simply rotated my sockets. When it used the blue CEE17 16Amp sockets the earth pin prevented such a rotation and then I simply disregarded the Sargent light. I really would not recommend reversing the wiring in your purchased leads unless you are prepared to make up or purchase a reversing connector/adapter lead kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 "The RCCB is even more important in motor homes than houses because most houses have a good earth connection. Do not assume all camp sites have this. This means that in the case of a fault a high and lethal current could flow through your body to earth if there were no alternative protection in the form of an RCCB. Remember a motor home sits on rubber tires which are could insulators! " Without an earth present an RCB will not operate. Rather than be concerned about reverse polarity it is more important to have a good earth at the HU point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brabander Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 All electrical equipment sold with plugged cables within Europe should not be sensitive to the polarity of the live/neutral terminals. Where an earth connection is available this should obviously be only connected to an earth circuit. However it is possible that some equipment which is supposed to be permanently wired may be sensitive to polarity. It is possible that this applies to your Eberspaecher heater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brabander Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Sshortcicuit, I do not want to be pedantic but the RCCB measures the difference in current between the live and neutral conductors and has therefore NO earth connection. The older ELCB however required a good earth connection to operate. You are partly correct that In that the RCCB will only detect current flows to earth in equipment without an earth if there is a current leakage through the body of a person touching an energised portion of equipment. The RCCB will then limit the flow of this current. If the person touching the equipment is insulated from earth there will be no flow of current and the RCCB will not trip, however there will not be any shock! This means that an RCCB will still provide safety even if there is no earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coach2000 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 {If the person touching the equipment is insulated from earth there will be no flow of current and the RCCB will not trip, however there will not be any shock! This means that an RCCB will still provide safety even if there is no earth.} If there is no earth, you will still not get a shock without an RCCB in circuit. So how does the RCCB protect you? Me thinks its the rubber tyres. Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 sshortcircuit - 2015-09-01 8:17 PM spospe - 2015-09-01 7:37 PM Quite apart from the safety issue of 'reversed polarity', there is the practical one of some equipment not working at all when the 'polarity' is reversed. Please do not confuse safety issues with certain equipment not operating. Unless you can explain how, there is no danger present in a healthy circuit due to reverse polarity provided you do not dabble I understood spospe’s first sentence to mean “Leaving aside any ‘reversed polarity’ safety issues, there is the practical one of some equipment not working at all when the 'polarity' is reversed.” The Eberspächer/Airtronic polarity-sensitivity peculiarity came up some time ago and was confirmed by Eberspächer. The Airtronic option evidently won’t function with a reversed-polarity 230V supply and, unless the supply’s polarity can be ‘corrected’, the user cannot have electric air-heating. The rest of spospe’s advice seems plain commonsense to me. Underpants can be worn as designed or inside-out. If you find that you’ve put them on inside-out, correcting this makes sense even though leaving them on inside-out should be OK. (Back-to-front is another matter, of course.) Would any reasonable person choose to argue with that on a “There are no safety implications in wearing inside-out underpants” basis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-09-02 9:51 AM sshortcircuit - 2015-09-01 8:17 PM spospe - 2015-09-01 7:37 PM Quite apart from the safety issue of 'reversed polarity', there is the practical one of some equipment not working at all when the 'polarity' is reversed. Please do not confuse safety issues with certain equipment not operating. Unless you can explain how, there is no danger present in a healthy circuit due to reverse polarity provided you do not dabble I understood spospe’s first sentence to mean “Leaving aside any ‘reversed polarity’ safety issues, there is the practical one of some equipment not working at all when the 'polarity' is reversed.” The Eberspächer/Airtronic polarity-sensitivity peculiarity came up some time ago and was confirmed by Eberspächer. The Airtronic option evidently won’t function with a reversed-polarity 230V supply and, unless the supply’s polarity can be ‘corrected’, the user cannot have electric air-heating. The rest of spospe’s advice seems plain commonsense to me. Underpants can be worn as designed or inside-out. If you find that you’ve put them on inside-out, correcting this makes sense even though leaving them on inside-out should be OK. (Back-to-front is another matter, of course.) Would any reasonable person choose to argue with that on a “There are no safety implications in wearing inside-out underpants” basis? , It is also quiet clear to me that there are no safety issues with reverse polarity, unless you dabble, so my interpretation of the statement stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 None of which addresses the question I raised above, which was: could a high resistance on the negative side in either the van wiring or the EHU cable cause what Poursay reported? If so, and there is a fault, he should surely get that sorted out before delving into the slightly more esoteric regions of theoretical risk from reversed polarity, and under what conditions they might arise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 sshortcircuit - 2015-09-02 10:53 AM....................................It is also quiet clear to me that there are no safety issues with reverse polarity, unless you dabble, so my interpretation of the statement stands. But when things unexpectedly don't work, people do dabble, and they don't always think first, especially if they are tired or flustered. Safety that is conditional on someone having sufficient knowledge to know when to stop isn't really safety Hamish, so I think, even with your proviso, that the above statement is misleadingly absolute, though it is technically correct. The safest solution, if the van is SP fused, is to correct the polarity. Then, the full range of familiar safety measures will work as intended. The exception would be in a continental built van, where DP "fuses" (often RCBOs) are installed and polarity is irrelevant. But, folk need to know that is the installation they have, and many won't. So, in either event, the best general advice would be to correct polarity when you know it is reversed, because it is the "fail safe" procedure. For that reason, IMO, the advice to anyone who doesn't understand electricity should be to check for reversed polarity when abroad. Most testers will, AFAIK, also indicate a poor earth, which is important to safety, and the advice should then be to abandon that supply point in favour of a properly earthed alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 If people are prepared to dabble it will not matter if the polarity is reversed or not as if they do not know what they are doing they will hurt themselves. All safety measures will continue to work even with reversed polarity. My concern with the point was that reversed polarity was dangerous which it is not and therefore the statement incorrect. Can you please explain your comment "it is the "fail safe" procedure". How? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 The original posting says "Just back from a few weeks in France where we mixed " Frence Passion" with sites. All the sites came up as reverse polarity on my fuse box.” Whether this should be taken as a symptom of something other than the obvious causing the warning-light to illuminate will depend on how many campsites Mike visited, on how many of those sites Mike decided he would like to use a 230V hook-up (as he was also using France Passion sites it may be assumed he was comfortable doing without mains electricity) and what percentage of French campsites have every 230V outlet conforming to the UK polarity norm. If Mike visited, say, 15 different sites, decided he’d like to use a hook-up on all of them and found that all of the hook-ups he tried caused the reverse-polarity light on his Swift’s Sargent ECU200//PSU2007 Power Control System, it would be more than a mite suspicious. But if he visited, say, 10 different sites, decided he’d like to use a hook-up on just 4 of those (possibly because the cost of a hook-up on the rest was off-putting) he might just have had a run of statistical bad luck. The EC200-related “Top 10 Questions” section on Sargent’s website carries advice on the reverse-polarity light http://tinyurl.com/kr5k7zh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 sshortcircuit - 2015-09-02 1:39 PM.............................Can you please explain your comment "it is the "fail safe" procedure". How? Gladly Hamish. Because, for a UK wired van, it will put it into the configuration laid out in the IET Regs/BS7671, which are the nationally recognised standards for electrical installations, one of which is the observation of correct polarity throughout an installation. It seems to me that if reversed polarity is corrected, an installation in a motorhome wired to UK standards will then be as "safe" as any normal domestic installation wired to the same standards, which is what the government deems "safe" for public use. To advise otherwise on an open forum seems to me to suggest that the author has greater or better knowledge than the Institute of Engineering Technology, which drafts the regulations, and the British Standards Institute, which publishes them. I'm not arguing that the author may or may not not have greater knowledge than those organisations, just that he places himself (and possibly Warners who become the de facto publisher of his comments) in a somewhat exposed position by taking that line on a public forum. So, in both senses, I think the advice to correct what is incorrect (according to the national regs), is the all round fail-safe option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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