Tracker Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 malc d - 2015-11-25 12:14 PM Tracker - 2015-11-25 12:03 PM Isn't that the reason motorhomes were created? No. They were created for people who are too old for camping, and don't want to tow a caravan or stay in hotels, or on camp sites. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Tracker - 2015-11-25 12:30 PM malc d - 2015-11-25 12:14 PM Tracker - 2015-11-25 12:03 PM Isn't that the reason motorhomes were created? No. They were created for people who are too old for camping, and don't want to tow a caravan or stay in hotels, or who SAY that they don't use camp sites. ;-) Other than for perhaps when first joining, I can't recall much in the way of "form filling"?..and what there was, would've been no more than is involved when buying camping/Aires guide(s) over the internet... Neither can I recall "having to book" CLs. We do occasionally book the odd one or two that we know we'll need for specific events, but in the main we just give CLs a courtesy phone call, near the time, sometimes on-route. (..and using the telephone numbers and directions taken from the handbook, so in that respect, surely of little difference to using a guide book for the Continent?) ..and I certainly don't recognise all this talk of a "set route" etc, unless of cause it has been set by us.. ;-) (excuse the slight re-edit Malc ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 pepe63 - 2015-11-25 2:07 PM Other than for perhaps when first joining, I can't recall much in the way of "form filling"?..and what there was, would've been no more than is involved when buying camping/Aires guide(s) over the internet... Neither can I recall "having to book" CLs. We do occasionally book the odd one or two that we know we'll need for specific events, but in the main we just give CLs a courtesy phone call, near the time, sometimes on-route. (..and using the telephone numbers and directions taken from the handbook, so in that respect, surely of little difference to using a guide book for the Continent?) ..and I certainly don't recognise all this talk of a "set route" etc, unless of cause it has been set by us.. I supsect that you know very well what I mean and are just being argumentative and if you do wish to criticise please do so constructively or provide your own ideas for a workable alternative solution. As stated, this has nothing to do with UK campers joining UK clubs but if you follow the links that Derek posted and see the faff and cost involved for overseas visitors temporarily joining the clubs, plus they would still have the cost and inconvenience of booking club sites, which I am told can be hard enough at times when you do speak English you will see how unattractive it might be for overseas visitors more used to the just turn up and stay approach to touring. The main point about a cl/cs is that you don't have to pre book although as you say a courtesy call before arriving and to confirm space would not go amiss, but with so many combined locations to choose from that too should be a lot easier. The point is that a combined book of all cls/css from every source made available to anyone who buys the book, instead of having to join two clubs to get two books both written and presented in differing formats, as with France Passion or Britstops, would create a huge network of well spaced attractive overnight or longer stop offs at a sensible cost and as such I suggest they would be attractive to both overseas and UK campers. I suggest that many UK motorhomes would buy the book and might even spend more time and money touring the UK and less time abroad if it were easier to park up overnight. We have a huge network of often underused sites in the combined cl/cs network and all I am suggesting is a little bit more imagination in making them available to all and a bit less empire building by the clubs in regard to the sites that although they may have licensed they do not own or run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Gomersall Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 This has been an interesting thread and between the bickering, some important points have been made. I agree that councils wont build aires and nor should they. It's not a core function of councils and in this day and age of neo-liberal economics its up to the private sector to provide leisure facilities. But, there is an economic argument that caravans and motorhomes do contribute positively to local businesses. (SCCF report 2014 highlighted this in Scotland). Sites are plentiful in this country but expensive. Perhaps to address this, why not lobby the Motorhome magazines to spearhead a campaign to get the Clubs to reduce their rates as this would have a knock on effect through the whole industry whilst still keeping the exclusiveness of CL/CS for club members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Dave Gomersall - 2015-11-25 2:55 PM This has been an interesting thread and between the bickering, some important points have been made. I agree that councils wont build aires and nor should they. It's not a core function of councils and in this day and age of neo-liberal economics its up to the private sector to provide leisure facilities. But, there is an economic argument that caravans and motorhomes do contribute positively to local businesses. (SCCF report 2014 highlighted this in Scotland). Sites are plentiful in this country but expensive. Perhaps to address this, why not lobby the Motorhome magazines to spearhead a campaign to get the Clubs to reduce their rates as this would have a knock on effect through the whole industry whilst still keeping the exclusiveness of CL/CS for club members. I agree with most of what you say Dave but clubs reducuing site prices - really - you cannot be serious man!! I don't know as we don't use them anymore, but from what I read many club sites are in high demand and as reducing prices usually increases demand, in order to achieve the same site fee income the site staff and booking desks would very likely need to work harder and for longer hours. That said there may possibly be an argument to reduce some site fees for low demand periods to create more demand but I don't think reducing prices would ever be very high on either club's agenda! Plus all of that would be contrary to the idea of creating more 'just turn up and stay' facilities that do not have the complex and often time consuming book in process common to many sites. That might make the UK even less attractive to many more people both British and from other countries as there would be even less access to those sites for an on the day unbooked arrival? Commercial sites seem to have the advantage although they are not cheap for the overnight tourer who just wants somewhere to park and empty the loo without all the other facilities but they seem rarely full and often booking in is no more than paying the fee and pitching. Personally, not being club members any more gives us the freedom to use any commercial site as and when we need one but finding one without having to drive miles out of our way is not always as easy as using a cl/cs used to be. Cost is less of an issue as it is only ever the occasional night but over several weks of an extended tour large sites are not cheap in any country! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Caravan Club reduces its site fees for off peak periods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 pepe63 - 2015-11-25 2:07 PM Tracker - 2015-11-25 12:30 PM malc d - 2015-11-25 12:14 PM Tracker - 2015-11-25 12:03 PM Isn't that the reason motorhomes were created? No. They were created for people who are too old for camping, and don't want to tow a caravan or stay in hotels, or who SAY that they don't use camp sites. ;-) Other than for perhaps when first joining, I can't recall much in the way of "form filling"?..and what there was, would've been no more than is involved when buying camping/Aires guide(s) over the internet... Neither can I recall "having to book" CLs. We do occasionally book the odd one or two that we know we'll need for specific events, but in the main we just give CLs a courtesy phone call, near the time, sometimes on-route. (..and using the telephone numbers and directions taken from the handbook, so in that respect, surely of little difference to using a guide book for the Continent?) ..and I certainly don't recognise all this talk of a "set route" etc, unless of cause it has been set by us.. ;-) (excuse the slight re-edit Malc ;-) No need to apologise to me pepe old chap. Tracker has a habit of amending / distorting other peoples postings so it's a bit of his handiwork that you have amended. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 Mike88 - 2015-11-25 8:36 AM This shouldn't be an argument between individuals but a debate between aspiration and common sense. Today the Chancellor will announce a considerable reduction in funds to local government with consequential staff losses and cuts in capital spending. Can anyone really believe that local government will magic up funds for Aires at a time when other priorities are being slashed? In light of the recent Paris attacks he will have to seriously reconsider cutting much more. We now have very little left in the way of defence after decimating our Forces, not to mention the Police and our Military "Air Force" is a complete joke. Typically though our Military, by comparison to other countries, is top heavy with Generals, Commanders and top rank officers all costing an absolute fortune. This request for local government to establish Aires defies common sense. And to meekly accept and not bother at least trying defies all sense! PJay - 2015-11-25 11:07 AM Perhaps the 2 clubs could allow temporary membership to overseas visitors ? Though i don 't see many non UK plated vehicles around, maybe at HOT tourist spots ? Though come to think of it, Portsmouth has a lot of history !! This is true though that said the four vans which were parked next to me at Cruden Bay were all foreign! Three German and one Belgium plated. The German couple next to me were enroute to Shetland and Orkney islands, then eventually over to Ireland. It was their first time in UK and both shocked at how expensive it is. I told them i wasn't surprised to hear that as i'm regularly in their country. As an example, when driving the Autobahns i don't even bother going off to refuel as the prices are low enough. I can't remember the last time i bought fuel at any UK motorway services! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 malc d - 2015-11-25 5:15 PM pepe63 - 2015-11-25 2:07 PM Tracker - 2015-11-25 12:30 PM malc d - 2015-11-25 12:14 PM Tracker - 2015-11-25 12:03 PM Isn't that the reason motorhomes were created? No. They were created for people who are too old for camping, and don't want to tow a caravan or stay in hotels, or who SAY that they don't use camp sites. ;-) Other than for perhaps when first joining, I can't recall much in the way of "form filling"?..and what there was, would've been no more than is involved when buying camping/Aires guide(s) over the internet... Neither can I recall "having to book" CLs. We do occasionally book the odd one or two that we know we'll need for specific events, but in the main we just give CLs a courtesy phone call, near the time, sometimes on-route. (..and using the telephone numbers and directions taken from the handbook, so in that respect, surely of little difference to using a guide book for the Continent?) ..and I certainly don't recognise all this talk of a "set route" etc, unless of cause it has been set by us.. ;-) (excuse the slight re-edit Malc ;-) No need to apologise to me pepe old chap. Tracker has a habit of amending / distorting other peoples postings so it's a bit of his handiwork that you have amended. ;-) Tracker distort, surely not but be careful he has become easily offended of late. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Bulletguy - 2015-11-25 5:20 PM Mike88 - 2015-11-25 8:36 AM This shouldn't be an argument between individuals but a debate between aspiration and common sense. Today the Chancellor will announce a considerable reduction in funds to local government with consequential staff losses and cuts in capital spending. Can anyone really believe that local government will magic up funds for Aires at a time when other priorities are being slashed? In light of the recent Paris attacks he will have to seriously reconsider cutting much more. We now have very little left in the way of defence after decimating our Forces, not to mention the Police and our Military "Air Force" is a complete joke. Typically though our Military, by comparison to other countries, is top heavy with Generals, Commanders and top rank officers all costing an absolute fortune. This request for local government to establish Aires defies common sense. And to meekly accept and not bother at least trying defies all sense! PJay - 2015-11-25 11:07 AM Perhaps the 2 clubs could allow temporary membership to overseas visitors ? Though i don 't see many non UK plated vehicles around, maybe at HOT tourist spots ? Though come to think of it, Portsmouth has a lot of history !! This is true though that said the four vans which were parked next to me at Cruden Bay were all foreign! Three German and one Belgium plated. The German couple next to me were enroute to Shetland and Orkney islands, then eventually over to Ireland. It was their first time in UK and both shocked at how expensive it is. I told them i wasn't surprised to hear that as i'm regularly in their country. As an example, when driving the Autobahns i don't even bother going off to refuel as the prices are low enough. I can't remember the last time i bought fuel at any UK motorway services! Of course it seems expensive to them, the euro is only worth about 3p to the pound or something, their fault they should not have joined. You use autobahns, that is brave, most are worse than the M25 on a bad day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 rupert123 - 2015-11-25 8:50 PM Tracker has become easily offended of late. Only when deliberately insulted by people who are unwilling to apologise after trying and failing miserably to make a cheap point at his expense and who then compound their own failings by trying to justify their actions with even cheaper comments like the one above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 rupert123 - 2015-11-25 8:54 PM Of course it seems expensive to them, the euro is only worth about 3p to the pound or something, their fault they should not have joined. 70 pence at todays rate so i've no idea where you get 3p from. You use autobahns, that is brave, most are worse than the M25 on a bad day. Never been in a traffic jam yet on any Autobahn which i use when needing to get from A to B quickly. I certainly won't be driving the motorway down to Dover again during the day after sitting for ages with the damn handbrake on and engine off. When the traffic did move it managed no more than a 4mph crawl and the M20 had 40mph restriction signs on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Bulletguy - 2015-11-25 10:44 PM rupert123 - 2015-11-25 8:54 PM Of course it seems expensive to them, the euro is only worth about 3p to the pound or something, their fault they should not have joined. 70 pence at todays rate so i've no idea where you get 3p from. You use autobahns, that is brave, most are worse than the M25 on a bad day. Never been in a traffic jam yet on any Autobahn which i use when needing to get from A to B quickly. I certainly won't be driving the motorway down to Dover again during the day after sitting for ages with the damn handbrake on and engine off. When the traffic did move it managed no more than a 4mph crawl and the M20 had 40mph restriction signs on. And the M£ down to Portsmouth has raod works and speed limit for miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 PJay - 2015-11-25 11:39 PM Bulletguy - 2015-11-25 10:44 PM rupert123 - 2015-11-25 8:54 PM Of course it seems expensive to them, the euro is only worth about 3p to the pound or something, their fault they should not have joined. 70 pence at todays rate so i've no idea where you get 3p from. You use autobahns, that is brave, most are worse than the M25 on a bad day. Never been in a traffic jam yet on any Autobahn which i use when needing to get from A to B quickly. I certainly won't be driving the motorway down to Dover again during the day after sitting for ages with the damn handbrake on and engine off. When the traffic did move it managed no more than a 4mph crawl and the M20 had 40mph restriction signs on. And the M£ down to Portsmouth has raod works and speed limit for miles. My local motorway, the M6 on a 'normal' day; http://oi64.tinypic.com/2i1fvw0.jpg Note the 40mph boards and brake lights on the crawling traffic! :-( *-) E51 for Berlin to Leipzig/Magdeburg; http://oi68.tinypic.com/33bzasm.jpg driven this Autobahn loads of times and being close on to Berlin, that's what locals call "busy". ;-) :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 There is little point in trying to out present each other with examples of motorway traffic good or bad because as we all know parts of Europe can all be a pain in the journey at times and we too have been snarled up in France (sometimes around cities), Belgium (particularly!), Holland (quite often!), Germany (occasionally!) and Spain (rarely!). That said I think the general perception is that most of us can travel further quicker and more relaxed on mainland European motorways than we can on our own UK motorway network where only a fool would rely on a theoretical journey times - especially if one has a flight to catch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 There are links to two reasonably recent ‘motorhome stopovers’ petitions, plus some forum comments on an earlier petition with the last link mentioning an official response in 2009. https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/50323 https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/27376 http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Motorhome-stopovers-/13559/ http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/33-wild-camping-spots-mh-friendly-parking/54664-government-response-motorhome-parking-petition.html Here’s another current petition that forum members may wish to sign https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/107746 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Tracker - 2015-11-25 9:06 PM rupert123 - 2015-11-25 8:50 PM Tracker has become easily offended of late. Only when deliberately insulted by people who are unwilling to apologise after trying and failing miserably to make a cheap point at his expense and who then compound their own failings by trying to justify their actions with even cheaper comments like the one above. Point made I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 It's Cardiff’s turn this week. We have suggested that part of the New Park & Ride just off the M48 could be used as an overnight stop Motorhomes. Tuesday a group of Travellers in Motorhomes and caravans arrived and despite an Attendant on site parked up taking over a considerable area. They have been asked to move, and replied when we are ready. So it’s going to cost the city council loss of revenue and the cost of getting a court order to evict them. This is why we have a problem trying to get councils to provide Aires or overnight stops in this locality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 And there rests the entire argument against UK Aires and in favour of height barriers. The potential cost of enforcement and clear ups is perceived to far outweigh any benefits to a local economy and I do have to say with some regret that the sad fact is should an Aire ever be proposed close to my backyard I too would probably vote against it. Speaking personally I would rather have the mobile dross kept out of our towns and car parks than see them abuse and ruin any Aires and cause any more distress and anger than they already do. I am assured by a retired police officer that I know that the laws of enforcement and dross removal when illegally camped do exist but that in his experience most councils and police forces lack the balls or political will to use them to good effect until it is too late to prevent a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmold Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 ham - 2015-11-26 11:51 AM It's Cardiff’s turn this week. We have suggested that part of the New Park & Ride just off the M48 could be used as an overnight stop Motorhomes. Tuesday a group of Travellers in Motorhomes and caravans arrived and despite an Attendant on site parked up taking over a considerable area. They have been asked to move, and replied when we are ready. So it’s going to cost the city council loss of revenue and the cost of getting a court order to evict them. This is why we have a problem trying to get councils to provide Aires or overnight stops in this locality. I understand that powers already exist to move them without court involvement using section 61 of the criminal justice and public order act 1994 providing there are 6 or more vehicles and the land owner (local authority) have asked them to leave but they have not done so. It is the police force's decision whether to use section 61. Unfortunately they seem reluctant to get involved and leave it to go to court costing the legal system money rather than the police budget. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/33/section/61 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 paulmold - 2015-11-26 1:42 PM ham - 2015-11-26 11:51 AM It's Cardiff’s turn this week. We have suggested that part of the New Park & Ride just off the M48 could be used as an overnight stop Motorhomes. Tuesday a group of Travellers in Motorhomes and caravans arrived and despite an Attendant on site parked up taking over a considerable area. They have been asked to move, and replied when we are ready. So it’s going to cost the city council loss of revenue and the cost of getting a court order to evict them. This is why we have a problem trying to get councils to provide Aires or overnight stops in this locality. I understand that powers already exist to move them without court involvement using section 61 of the criminal justice and public order act 1994 providing there are 6 or more vehicles and the land owner (local authority) have asked them to leave but they have not done so. It is the police force's decision whether to use section 61. Unfortunately they seem reluctant to get involved and leave it to go to court costing the legal system money rather than the police budget. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/33/section/61 That might be the case but that doesn't prevent the mess left behind which of necessity is paid for by local Council Tax Payers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmold Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Mike88 - 2015-11-26 1:46 PM paulmold - 2015-11-26 1:42 PM ham - 2015-11-26 11:51 AM It's Cardiff’s turn this week. We have suggested that part of the New Park & Ride just off the M48 could be used as an overnight stop Motorhomes. Tuesday a group of Travellers in Motorhomes and caravans arrived and despite an Attendant on site parked up taking over a considerable area. They have been asked to move, and replied when we are ready. So it’s going to cost the city council loss of revenue and the cost of getting a court order to evict them. This is why we have a problem trying to get councils to provide Aires or overnight stops in this locality. I understand that powers already exist to move them without court involvement using section 61 of the criminal justice and public order act 1994 providing there are 6 or more vehicles and the land owner (local authority) have asked them to leave but they have not done so. It is the police force's decision whether to use section 61. Unfortunately they seem reluctant to get involved and leave it to go to court costing the legal system money rather than the police budget. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/33/section/61 That might be the case but that doesn't prevent the mess left behind which of necessity is paid for by local Council Tax Payers. But if dealt with quickly less mess to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 ham - 2015-11-26 11:51 AM It's Cardiff’s turn this week. We have suggested that part of the New Park & Ride just off the M48 could be used as an overnight stop Motorhomes. Tuesday a group of Travellers in Motorhomes and caravans arrived and despite an Attendant on site parked up taking over a considerable area. They have been asked to move, and replied when we are ready. So it’s going to cost the city council loss of revenue and the cost of getting a court order to evict them. This is why we have a problem trying to get councils to provide Aires or overnight stops in this locality. And Shrewsbury a few weeks ago. Half the very large Frankwell carpark with massive caravans, vans and 4WDs widely spaced with satellite dishes in the gaps between vehicles. When I came back I saw the police but they were just dealing with some poor bloke who had tried to jump in the Severn. Anyway the site was clear again a week later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 So the question is why are we affected by groups of 'travellers' setting up camp on large plots of land and yet this doesn't seem to be a problem with Aires etc on the Continent. Solving the problem might make it easier to compel Councils to provide Aires in the UK; in fact they may not need compelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 Brock - 2015-11-26 5:11 PM So the question is why are we affected by groups of 'travellers' setting up camp on large plots of land and yet this doesn't seem to be a problem with Aires etc on the Continent. Solving the problem might make it easier to compel Councils to provide Aires in the UK; in fact they may not need compelling. Good point though i believe Councils are obliged by law now to provide sites for travellers. I was just about to suggest maybe rather than p*ssing in the wind with petitions and 'being nice', we'd be better off sticking a few rolls of chrome tape on the van, shove a bin lid on the roof, net curtains and plastic flowers in the window. Job done. Park wherever you like.Though at just 5.5mtrs i'd need my van stretched as well. :D Does make you wonder why the travelling community love migrating here so regularly. Maybe it's due to the damp dull climate and gloomy grey sky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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