Richard.D.65 Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Hello all. This may sound like a silly enquiry,but I'm going to ask anyway. My van is parked on the drive prepared for the coming onslaught of winter and the temperature drop.I've emptied water from everything,left the taps open,and opened the valve on the boiler to make sure any residual water drains.I left the taps open to help just in case any small amount of water is lingering,as working on the premise that water expands when frozen...........there's a means of escape. I've got two dehumidifiers in it and check the battery every week..........plus,I run the heating on full for a few hours every week to warm it up regularly,which gives me peace of mind over any problems that may have developed during a period of non-use........................and yes.............I'm a bit OCD.........but .........now to my question. We want to go away next weekend to a Christmas market........site all booked,looking forward to it etc.But,if I refill the water tank and thus all the pipes etc,will they freeze if I'm out in it during weather which is below zero.......also I'm guessing wind chill factor when driving may exacerbate the problem when driving...........or maybe I'm wrong.........I don't know and would welcome advice from those that do. Also............is there anything on the market such as a low power heating element that could be submerged in the water tank to keep the water from freezing....... Thankyou in advance Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 What you need to look out for, is if the tank and/or any pipes are running outside. A pipe is much more likely to freeze. If needed you can always carry a water container in the van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard.D.65 Posted November 22, 2015 Author Share Posted November 22, 2015 I did consider just taking a 20l water container...........filling just the toilet auto-flush as it works from a separate small tank.........and using site showers. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 If just going for a week end. Why not just carry bottled water? Maybe a larger one in the loo. for flushing? A couple of 6 ltre ones should be enough . I have a plastic fold up water container with a tap on, bought at most camping shops, which would help maybe? The only thing you would need to empty when you get back , would be the waster water tank PJay Enjoy your trip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 PJay - 2015-11-22 10:41 AM If just going for a week end. Why not just carry bottled water? Maybe a larger one in the loo. for flushing? A couple of 6 ltre ones should be enough . I have a plastic fold up water container with a tap on, bought at most camping shops, which would help maybe? The only thing you would need to empty when you get back , would be the waster water tank PJay Enjoy your trip Our posts seem to have crossed P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Hi Richard You may be aware already,( but others may not ) that when you leave your taps open make sure they are centred, - i.e. the lever is half way between hot and cold. If you don't, as i found to my cost a couple of years ago, they can still freeze and split . ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard.D.65 Posted November 22, 2015 Author Share Posted November 22, 2015 Actually......I hadn't thought of that............but it makes sense...............thankyou, :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophie2 Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 slightly off topic but....how long does it take for pipes etc to freeze at temps of say minus 1?? I was thinking that surely with modern mhomes (pipes inside)it would take several days to do so....and that it's hardly worth draining anything just for a couple of days I know it's a "length of piece of string" question, but if vehicle is outdoors?? (and fresh water tank would probably dump at 5deg) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Simple answer: if your van has its fresh water, or waste water, tanks, or any pipe runs whether hot or cold water, or waste water, suspended below the floor, and you drive in sub-zero temperatures, all will be liable to freeze. The pipes will be the most vulnerable, but if it is cold enough for long enough, the tanks are also at risk. The same applies to a lesser extent when on site. You will also find that the (assumed) Truma dump valve may open if the temperature in its immediate vicinity falls below about 5C, dumping the contents of the water heater and, depending on how the water heater is plumbed in, possibly the contents of your fresh water tank as well. If proposing to visit German markets, be aware that you are now in the period when vehicles are legally required to have winter tyres fitted on all wheels. You can get tank heaters, but they need to be fitted in the top of the tank, which is difficult with an underslung tank, and would probably necessitate removal of the tank/s. To gain benefit from this you would also need to insulate the tanks, if not already insulated. Most will be 12V heaters which will work while driving, but will need a suitable alternate power supply when on mains. However, since underslung pipes are much more vulnerable to freezing than the tanks, these will go first, so rendering your water systems unusable. They can be insulated and trace heated, but the same applies regarding power as for the tanks. Sadly, your real solution to winter use is a properly winterised van, meaning one with at the very least all pipe runs, and the fresh water tank, mounted internally plus, if you intend continental use during winter, the waste tank also internal. Don't be tempted to rely on insulation alone to prevent pipes/tanks freezing. All insulation does is to slow down the rate of heat transmission. Given enough time (which will depend on how cold it gets and the quality/thickness of the insulation), and low enough temperatures, any insulated pipe or tank will eventually freeze. The waste water tank is easiest solved, do not allow waste water to accumulate. Just leave the drain valve open and place a bucket or similar under the outlet, and empty regularly to prevent that freezing. For fresh water, leave the water system empty while travelling and fill on arrival. For the water heater, once filled, leave it on and it will keep the surrounding air above the critical temperature. One de-humidifier should be quite sufficient to prevent condensation in your van when not in use. Running the heating is, IMO, a bad idea and counter-productive, as it increases the internal air temperature while the heater is running which, in turn, allows the air in the van to take up more moisture. Then, when you turn off the heating, that moisture is liable to be deposited as condensation on cold internal surfaces. In your case this will in any case be countered by your de-humidifier, so I think also running the heater serves no useful purpose and merely adds to energy consumption. Personally, I use just a low wattage (400W) electric greenhouse heater in the van (set to about 5C on its non-calibrated 'stat), and leave it on once we begin to get frosts. This merely prevents internal temperatures falling below dew point which, with the van unused, effectively prevents condensation. Loose cushions and mattresses are upended to allow any trapped humidity to escape. The van gets quite cold, but it stays dry. I have done this now for 10 years in three different vans, and have not seen any condensation, or evidence of condensation, even on rooflights and windows. I also fit an insulated, external, windscreen and cab side window cover. Your other winter preparation precautions are wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard.D.65 Posted November 22, 2015 Author Share Posted November 22, 2015 Good points there.........cheers...........I think I'll look into a greenhouse heater as this seems a sensible precaution. We aren't going to Germany........only Ludlow :-) ,but to be honest,I think we'll just take a container full of fresh water and leave a bucket under the waste tank tap,just in case the temperature does drop really low. I'm quite looking forward to winter jaunts on various weekends,so long as the heating works well I can live with taking water in separate containers.Using huge amounts of gas by having the heating on for long periods won't be overly expensive when out and about during winter as whoever owned the MH previously had a gaslow system fitted,although they don't seem to have been out in it much as it's only done 12k from new (57 plate).I have a receipt for about £900 for the fitting,I can't see how they recouped their outlay...........not that I'm complaining. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tugga Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 If you are going to use bottled water to flush your toilet, we used a spray bottle in our Hymer as the pump pressure on the toilet flush was useless. It worked really well. I used to put a small amount of disinfectant in the spray bottle so the toilet always smelled nice. Our current motorhome is so much better at flushing the toilet, but it does fill quicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 As an added anti frost precaution I pour a drop of car screen wash (contains antifreeze ) into the sink wastes . Before I did that I had one crack one winter. Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 When we go out for the day in the winter, we take a 10l food grade container of water. We might on rare occasions wash up using water boiled in the kettle in which case we collect the waste water in a container and leave in the van until we get home. For the toilet we simply use some diluted pink Aqua Rinse in a spray bottle and give the toilet bowl a really good spray before and after use. If on site, we use site facilities as such as we can. Make sure you drain down your water system as soon as you have finished on site - use the motorhome service point. 10l of water is enough for a day on site for two people. I don't heat the van when it's on the drive and not being used unless it doesn't get above freezing during the day. Might be worth you chocking the wheels and leaving off the handbrake. I learned this the hard way last year when for various reasons, I couldn't use the van for two months of wintry wind and rain and my handbrake took some releasing. Check the weather forecast and if it looks too chilly, don't go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard.D.65 Posted November 22, 2015 Author Share Posted November 22, 2015 All good tips Thankyou all Richard :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancepar Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Also Has anyone mentioned running the pump for 30 seconds after draining. B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 I have been motorcaravanning for 17 years but am based in sub-tropical S Devon ( compared to Derbyshire). I keep an eye on the weather forecast and find that with my totally unwinterised van I can risk a couple of nights just sub zero© but if there is prolonged spell coming I drain the system leaving the taps open for few days to let things dry out. and go for a drive to shake as many drops out as possible. Shut the taps after a week or so to keep hibernating livestock out. Sub-zero camping is usually only a W/E and 10 litres or so in re-cycled 2 litre milk containers suffices.(with handles much handier than larger containers). Chill factor is only a measure of the effect on your body it is the actual temperature that is crucial. Once under way the exposed part of the system get the benefit of roadspeed airflow speeding freezing in below zero temperatures. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard.D.65 Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 I ordered a greenhouse heater yesterday......... :-D ,seems like a sensible precaution......we'll just make do with water in a container for winter jaunts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Hi Richard .. If you want to thoroughly drain-down the system (pipes, pump, boiler etc), you can always use something like the Floe device/kit http://www.keepfloeing.com/products-motorhome.html With our last van, I could access the feed pipe from the on-board tank quite easily, so I was able to "pressurize" and clear out the system(as per their video) without the need for any additional valves/taps/connectors...and it was surprising how much water came out of a, supposedly already fully drained down, system. (..and it took no more than 10-15mins). Worth a thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 We have only ever just drained the tanks and cleared water from pipes, never had a problem. We had a 2008 Swift Sundance which had tanks under the van, we had the water tank fitted with a heater, an easy and cheap job. We used it in the UK with temperatures down to about -5 and never had a problem. On site we used to leave the waste tank pipe open, also lagged the small section of fresh water pipe under the van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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