Harry666 Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Hello, my heating is not heating, - neither water or hot air. I turn the outer control knob to the bottom two settings and the fan begins to blow gently but nothing else happens. No clicks or woofs or anything, just the fan. On the top two settings there is no fan, just silence, this is the same on battery or on mains hook up. The inner knob is turned up full but still nothing happens. The green light and the amber light glow steadily but the water does not heat up, and the forced air system does not warm up. I have checked the fuses on the circuit board and they are both OK. I have lit all the other gas appliances and they all burn merrily so no fault in the gas supply. Can anyone suggest anything please ? :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 The heater is not detecting a fault, or the red "fault" LED would come on. How long have you left the heater running after turning it on? They take a little while to sample internal air temperature and decide to fire up. You should then hear a quiet clicking sound as the igniter triggers, followed by a muffled "whump" as the gas ignites, and then little more until the controls decide that heating is actually required. Once that period has passed the fan speed will gradually ramp up - it can sound a bit like a jet engine preparing for take-off. It will then hold that fan speed until the temperature begins to rise close to the set temperature, when it will slowly subside to a barely audible murmur. You will hear very little with the control set to either of the water heating only settings as the main fan doesn't run in that setting, only the combustion fan. Usually, if a fault is detected it will be immediately you seek to start the heater, or when the gas supply switches in. You will then hear a click, and the red "fault" LED will light up. This may happen one or two times on a system where the gas supply to the heater is air-locked, before the gas gets through. Turn the outer ring of the switch back to the off position, let it rest a few seconds, and then turn back on. If the same thing happens again, try again. The pipe from the main gas valve to the heater can be quite long on some vans, so it can take several attempts before all the air is expelled and the gas gets through to the burner. Are you using butane? If so, it may be too cold for the butane to "gas" properly. You may need to try using propane instead. There may be sufficient gas to run the hob or fridge, but the heater is the heaviest consumer and the rate at which butane is "gassing" may be insufficient to keep up with its demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry666 Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 Hello Brian, Thank you for your reply. No there is no red light showing. The outside temp is about 3 degrees. The Van has been stood for a while without a gas bottle attached, I have just fitted a new bottle of propane (for outdoor use). I have left the heating switched on for a half hour on all of the settings but nothing happens, maybe your airlock idea could be a cause, How can I clear an airlock ? But surely the igniter would still click even if there was air in the system. I will try turning it off and on a few times to see if will clear an airlock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry666 Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 Hi I have been trying switching it on and off and leaving for a few minutes in each position but nothing else happens. Maybe I should try loosening a gas supply pipe to let some gas get through. What do you think ? But other than that there is no change, the green and amber lights are on but nothing else happens. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 It's all a bit of a mystery ! The correct setting for the outer ring is one down from the zero position ( this is for blown air heating with no water in the boiler ). I assume you don't have any water in the boiler as you've had it laid up for a while and the temperature has dropped, dumping the water. Are you sure you've turned the middle knob up to Max ( setting number 5 ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry666 Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 Hi, I filled it with water earlier on as it was warmer earlier today, so the water is full and properly bled through the taps. Yes the inner ring was turned up to max. I checked all the fuses and they are all ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Harry666 - 2015-11-28 5:41 PM Hello Brian, Thank you for your reply. No there is no red light showing. The outside temp is about 3 degrees. The Van has been stood for a while without a gas bottle attached, I have just fitted a new bottle of propane (for outdoor use). I have left the heating switched on for a half hour on all of the settings but nothing happens, maybe your airlock idea could be a cause, How can I clear an airlock ? But surely the igniter would still click even if there was air in the system. I will try turning it off and on a few times to see if will clear an airlock. If there is no gas at the heater burner, it cannot ignite and, if ignition does not take place, the heater will go into fault mode and the red light will show. I don't know how the heater would respond if the igniter has failed, so can't initiate, ditto the gas valve. However, I would have thought failure to ignite from either cause should result in a fault condition. Clearly it seems to "think" that all is OK, and that the heating (and/or water heating) is firing as it should, or it should go to fault. I don't think the fault can be with the thermostat, as it seems it is equally happy to run with water heating selected, but with no water heating taking place. I don't think it would be worth (or safe!) loosening the gas pipe at the heater, as I can't see that helping. Unless an electrical connection has come off and is completely fooling the system, I wonder if the problem might be with the main circuit board. Someone else may have experienced similar, or may know what these symptoms mean, but otherwise I think you'll need to talk to Truma's technical bods, or to the nearest Truma repairer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry666 Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 Yup, I will phone them on Monday, I have the UK number. I am in the middle of France at the moment so I have no idea where my nearest stockist is. My van with the problems is a 2008 Rimor Superbrig 7 berth, very luxurious and spacious. My older smaller van, the Elnagh Marlin 2000 5 berth is still going strong with no problems. Its the same old story, they try and make things more sophisticated and complicated and they get more problematical. With the old van, you light the fire and it gets hot, You light the water and it gets hot. Simples. Anyway I am also stumped with this one, Ill phone Trauma on Monday and see if they can put their finger on the problem Happy Weekends Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 i dont know if your heater runs on electric as well as gas, if so have you tried the electric option? the amount of heat is not as great as with gas, but you might be able to verify that the heater 'works' albeit not (at the moment) on gas. you can also test the hot water on electric too. good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Brian Kirby - 2015-11-28 6:25 PM If there is no gas at the heater burner, it cannot ignite and, if ignition does not take place, the heater will go into fault mode and the red light will show. I don't know how the heater would respond if the igniter has failed, so can't initiate, ditto the gas valve. However, I would have thought failure to ignite from either cause should result in a fault condition... With a Trumatic C-6002 appliance, if the gas inlet valve fails to open during the start-up phase, or the gas-igniter fails to light the gas, the heater should go into ‘failure’ mode and the red monitor lamp on the control-switch should illuminate. Trouble-shooting advice can be found here https://dealernew.truma.com/_anweisungen/Truma-Katalog/pdf_verzeichnis/30_000/34000_94800.pdf but the scenario described by Harry is not covered. Truma provides a search facility https://www.truma.com/int/en/home/dealer-search.php that can be used to identify French dealerships and Truma service-partners, and it’s likely that demonstrating the problem to a French leisure-vehicle specialist (many won’t be open on Mondays) would be more productive than phoning Truma(UK) and describing the problem. It seems that Harry’s heater is not entering the gas ignition phase and thus no ignition-related fault is showing up (and no air or water heating takes place of course). Hopefully the problem is not down to the heater’s printed-circuit board (pcb) - as these are not repairable and not cheap to replace - but as the heater is behaving very oddly and basic checks (adequate gas, fuses, etc.) have been carried out, the pcb is now the prime suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKen1 Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 If as it sounds no gas is getting to the heater and you have fitted a new bottle then I would check for a separate gas isolation valve somewhere near the heater unit .On my Knaus there is a valve in the cupboard under the fridge just for the heater which could easily be turned off by items not properly secured in the cupboard..worth a look. Also placing your hand over the side chimney will feel hot if there is a flame present Brian K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 In which case Brian, it should register as no gas, record a fault, and cease operation with the red LED on: as when the gas runs out. But, for whatever reason, it seems to continue running despite failing to ignite gas for either space or water heating, merely distributing cold air. It seems a control element has failed, so the 'stat thinks it should be firing and initiates the heating fan, but the rest of the controls don't know that is happening and don't try to initiate the ignition sequence, so the controls don't record a fault. It might be a wire that has come off somewhere, but difficult to visualise what wire may have detached from where; otherwise, as Derek reasons, it does seem to centre on the pcb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKen1 Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Yes Brian your right , just tried mine with gas "on" all ok turn gas "off " and red fail light comes on . So there is no gas detector therefore it has to be the thermo couple fault telling the electronics its got a flame (when in fact it hasnt) and imagines it ok.,and runs as normal with no heat. Failing that it must be the PCB as mentioned Brian K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 It’s to be expected that owners of motorhomes fitted with Trumatic C-Series heaters wii soon become familiar with how their heater normally reacts when turned on. I don’t know how long Harry has owned his Rimor, but in his original posting he says "I turn the outer control knob to the bottom two settings and the fan begins to blow gently but nothing else happens. No clicks or woofs or anything, just the fan.” which suggests to me that he is familiar with the procedure his heater used to go through at normal start-up and the noises it used to make. A 2008 Trumatic C-6002 has two fans - one provides air to the gas-burner and the other (the blown-air fan) drives air through the heater itself. When operating on gas and water is being heated the burner-fan runs continuously and (if it’s quiet inside the motorhome) the fanm’s operation should just be audible. When the heater is providing warm air, it should be obvious that the blown-air fan is running. At start-up in gas-mode the gas-burner fan should begin to run to ‘purge’ the burner area. After a short time the heater’s electrically-operated gas inlet valve should open and then the heater’s igniter should fire. Opening of the gas valve is characterised by an audible ‘click’ and (as Brian said earlier) the igniter should also be heard ‘firing’ for several seconds. If the gas valve fails to open no gas can reach the igniter and, after the igniter has attemped and failed to light the (non-existent) gas, the heater should go into fault mode. If the gas valve does open but the igniter fails to fire, the heater should close the gas valve and go into fault mode. There is no gas ‘sniffer’, but the heater’s gas valve won’t open unless there’s adequate pressure at the valve. In principle one could feed compressed air to the heater and cause the valve to open, but obviously ignition would not occur afterwards. If the gas valve opens and (in Harry’s case) propane passes through it and is ignited, but the ‘thermocouple’ fails to register that ignition has taken place, the heater should go into fault mode. However, unless the gas valve opens, propane passes through the valve and the igniter fires and ignites the gas, the thermocouple won’t have been brought into play. From what Harry says the indications (the lack of any valve-opening or igniter firing noises) are that the gas valve does not open and the igniter does not fire. Either of these things should cause the heater to go into fault mode, but it does not. What is needed is for someone with Trumatic C-series expertise to have the problem demonstrated to them and for them to try to make an accurate diagnosis of the cause. This may not be a simple task. Years ago, when my Trumatic C-3402 heater developed a fault (also the gas failing to ignite and also in France) I visited a French motorhome dealership and it was suggested that the problem might be due to debris (eg. insects) in the gas-burner chamber. Having returned to the UK I took the motorhome to Truma(UK) in Derby and - after demonstrating the fault - the heater was removed and disassembled. The insulation on the igniter had cracked and, as a result, a proper spark was not being produced. Diagnosis that the problem lay with the igniter was not too difficult as I had noticed that the firing-noise the igniter had made in the past had suddenly changed (with the heater then proving increasingly reluctant to start up reliably) and (a couple of days after the noise change) the igniter went silent and the heater would not start at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry666 Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 Hello everyone. Well I phoned Truma in the UK this morning and we performed a number of checks and it seems that its probably the PCB. So I have an appointment with Monsieur Repair man in France next week, so I will report back afterwards. Thanks for all your advice so far. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 In the interim (and assuming that accessibility makes it practicable and you are prepared to do it) you could try carefully disconnecting and reconnecting every connector at the pcb, control-switch and room-temperature sensor. This is definitely clutching at straws, but if it caused the heater to work properly it could save you a good deal of cash. This 2009 discussion may be worth reading http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/truma-trauma/16553/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 A further suggestion, anticipating the visit of the repair man, would be to clear access to the heater to the maximum extent possible. He may have to remove the heater to gain access to the PCB (they aren't always installed with maintenance in mind! :-|), and there is no point paying for his time to dismantle furniture etc if you could do that yourself. The more difficult the access, the greater the potential saving! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westonman Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Hi Harry Just joined the Forum and had to respond as I've had a similar problem in the past, and although it may not be the answer to your particular problem, this is what happened in my instance. Went to a CL somewhere in Wiltshire I think it was at this sort of time of the year, (cold and miserable) and rather than carry too much water from home, having got the van warmed up by 230v fan heater from hook-up, then filled up with water from outside mains tap. You mentioned it being 3deg. outside where you are, and so it was where I was, the result was very cold water from outside meeting very warm conditions inside, and my Truma refused to fire up. The cause you might have guessed already, heavy condensation all over the boiler, including the PCB. It was absolutely dripping with water. Wiped all the water off, warmed up the whole thing drying it out and bingo, fired up like a "goodun" !! So there it is for what it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry666 Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 Actually I have an update, I left the switch on the top (60) setting this morning and the water heated up. So it seems I have hot water on the top settings but no hot water or heating on the bottom settings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 ...in which case, one extra thing you could try is leaving it on the bottom (60 plus squiggle) heating setting, and see if you get any hot water from that (regardless of there being no apparent room heating). AIUI, the setting above this one simply heats water (if it is present) as a bi-product of space heating, and will cut out if the set room temperature is reached. The bottom setting, however, heats the room space and water both individually controlled by temperature. If you eventually get hot water (but no room heating) on the bottom setting, I would check any remote room thermostat (and its connections). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Harry Two questions... 1: How familiar are you with your heater’s operating principles (basically, how long have you owned your Rimor?) 2: Is your Truma heater a C-6002 model (gas-only operation) or a C-6002EH (gas + 230V operation)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry666 Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 Hello Derek I checked with Truma UK this morning and it is a C 6002 gas only. It heated water on the 60 (top) setting yesterday and it heated the water I turned it onto 40 (top) today and although there was warm air coming from the vent the water did not warm up even after 4 hours. The bottom two settings do not operate the hot air even though when I turn the inner dial I can hear the thermostat click. I have only had the Rimor for a couple of weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Harry, follow this link : http://tinyurl.com/p5bx4j5 and scroll down to the one labelled Trumatic C 4002 (EL), C 6002 (EL) "from 04/2005" (second from bottom). Don't worry that it appears to be for the EL versions, the text covers the gas only version. Download the "Operating Instructions" for "GB - English". See if it helps. Also, Try Robin's suggestion of turning on heating and water heating (bottom position on the rotary switch) and see if the water heating works even if the space heating doesn't. Easiest test is to start it, leave it 5 minutes or so, and then look at, or if necessary put your hand over, the external flue to see if it is exhausting water vapour or heat. If it is, the burner is running. Don't be confused if after a while the air coming from the internal vents begins to get warmer, as the water heats up some of that heat will find its way to the air supply. They do take a while to sample the air in heating mode, but once they do the noise of the air circulation fan speeding up is quite noticeable. If you do hear the fan beginning to speed up just leave it and see what it does. It may be that it is OK after all, but just needed more time to settle down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry666 Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 Hello Brian I left the heater control in the bottom position, (hot water and heating) for about hour, but there is no heating and no hot water. The air coming out of the outside vent is stone cold. Yesterday the top setting (hot water at 60 degrees) worked. Today it doesn't work So I think the best thing is the Truma repair shop, I have a rendezvous next Tuesday morning. Thanks for all you advice. Harry :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Harry These are directs link to Truma’s Operating Instructions for (respectively) a late-model Trumatic C-6002 gas-only heater and a Trumatic C-6002EH gas+230V heater. https://dealernew.truma.com/_anweisungen/Truma-Katalog/pdf_verzeichnis/30_000/34000_94800.pdf https://dealernew.truma.com/_anweisungen/Truma-Katalog/pdf_verzeichnis/30_000/34010_03500.pdf It is possible to distinguish one heater from the other visually, but the give-away is that a C-6002 gas-only heater will have a single control-switch as shown in the first photo I have attached, whereas a C-6002EH gas+230V heater will also have that control-switch, but there will be another ‘power selector’ switch marked “Trumatic C EH” (as shown in my 2nd photo) that is used to choose gas, 230V or gas+230V operation. So one control-switch = a C-6002, while two control-switches (usually next to each other) = a C-6002EH. The C-6002’s control-switch (shown in first photo) has a 5-position outer ring and the central “O”-marked position if the heater’s OFF setting. Moving the switch’s outer ring one position anti-clockwise from “O” will select 40°C water heating only. The control-switch should show a green light (normal operation) and an orange light (water heating in progress). When the water’s temperature reaches 40°C water-heating will cease and the orange light should go out. Moving the switch’s outer ring two positions anti-clockwise from “O” will select 60°C water heating only. As before the control-switch should show a green light (normal operation) and an orange light (water heating in progress). When the water’s temperature reaches 60°C water-heating will cease and the orange light should go out. If the heater is able to heat water on the 60°C setting it should be able to heat water on the 40°C setting. The only real difference will be that the heater will take longer to heat water to 60°C than to 40°C. In both 60°C and 40°C heating cases, when the hot water within the heater cools down water-heating will recommence and the control-switch’s orange light will come back on. Moving the switch’s outer ring one position clockwise from “O” to the ‘flame symbol’ will select blown-air heating without hot water requirement and the switch should show a green light. The switch’s central rotary dial is then rotated to the desired thermostat setting (1 to 9) and – if the air temperature in the motorhome is less than the thermostat setting – the heater’s blown-air fan should begin to run. A C-6002’s gas burner has three heat outputs – 2kW, 4kW or 6kW – and the greater the difference between the ‘room temperature’ within the motorhome and the thermostat setting that has been chosen via the control-switch’s rotary dial, the higher the gas-burner output and blown-air fan-speed will eventually be. The air that will emerge from the various air-outlets in the motorhome will initially be cold and a gentle breeze. If, say, “9” has been chosen on the rotary dial and it is really cold inside the motorhome, as soon as the heater has warmed up it will step up the gas-burner setting from 2kW, through 4kW to 6kW and the blown-air fan-speed will increase to match. (A C-6002 at maximum blown-air output sounds like a small jet engine.) When the room temperature approaches the thermostat setting, the heater will reduce its gas-burner setting and throttle back the blown-air fan-speed. When the room temperature and thermostat setting match, the heater will shut down with the control-switch’s green light continuing to be illuminated. If the heater has water in it the water will be heated as a by-product of the air-heating, but water will only be heated when the heater is also heating air. The orange light on the control-switch will not normally be illuminated, only coming on if the water temperature is below 5°C. Moving the switch’s outer ring two positions clockwise from “O” to the ‘flame symbol’ with “60°” alongside will select blown-air heating with continuous hot water heating and water temperature monitoring. The process will be the same as described in the last paragraph, except the control-switch’s orange light will always come on. Water-heating will continue even when warmed blown-air is not being produced and only cease when the water temperature reaches 60°C when the switch’s orange light will go out. It will take much longer to heat water when warmed blown-air is being produced simultaneously. It used to be the case that a room-temperature thermostat was integrated into a Trumatic C’s control-switch, but more recent models have a remote room-temperature sensor as shown in my 3rd attached photo. This is usually fitted above the motorhome’s habitation entrance door and (when installed) looks like a small black domed ‘button’. I’m not sure what you are hearing when you say “...when I turn the inner dial I can hear the thermostat click” as operation of the heater’s temperature sensor is silent. I’m not disputing that you are hearing something making a clicking noise when you turn the inner dial, as a C-6002 heater’s gas-valve should be expected to ‘click’ as the appliance begins to operate, but a C-6002’s control-switch is not like a traditional domestic central-heating thermostat that can be heard to click as its temperature-dial is rotated. Hopefully what I’ve written above should put you in a better position to know what your heater should be doing if it were working normally, so I suggest you experiment systematically with what your heater will or won’t do when you choose water-heating or blown-air operation. I don’t know if the heating system was demonstrated to you when you bought your Rimor recently, or if the heater seemed to work OK during the period between you buying the motorhome and asking here about the current problems, but I’m sure you are right that you need someone with appropriate expertise to check what’s happening. Trumatic heaters tend to ‘prefer’ to go into failure mode (heater dead and red light on control-switch glowing balefully) but yours seems happy to run after a fashion, so there may not be much wrong. Best of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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