Hadrian Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 I must apologise in advance for this posting as I am hoping for a deluge of opinion and advice regarding the A-frame/Trailer debate. Firstly, some pre-requisites; My plan is to tour the UK throughout next year and tow a Smart Fortwo behind the motorhome. I have no plans to go to Europe with a towed car at the moment and my thoughts are that as Europe is generally more motorhome friendly a car may be unnecessary for touring anyway. I already have a tow bar fitted with a standard 7 pin trailer socket and I have no wish to have further modifications to the motorhome (Burstner Solano t750) so this effectively rules out A-frames requiring additional motorhome wiring as required by some A-frames with electronic braking systems apart from Smart-tow (as far as I’m aware). Also, my personal view is that if I went down the A-frame route an inertial braking system may not be entirely within current legislative guidance so I would likely go for an electronically braked system. The gross train mass of my motorhome is 5400kg and so I am OK with either a Smart Fortwo on an A-frame or the car on small 2-wheel trailer. So, my quandary is, do I go down the A-frame or the trailer route? I have done a lot of research and certainly in the UK the A-frame route seems to be the most logical and convenient way to transport a small car? What causes me concern is future legislative changes in the UK which may effectively ban A-frames for transporting a vehicle that has not “broken down” which my local motorhome dealer hinted may be coming next year? I would be grateful for thoughts, experience and practical advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 No need to wait until next year for any new legislation. Read this link http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/trailers.asp and ask any A frame manufacturer if they can supply the relevant certification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Hello, you are obviously up to date re a frame problems abroad, legal or not..that is the question. as a motorhomer and former caravanner of many years, and not wishing to get hassled by the law either in uk or abroad, my instinct would be to stick to the trailer route, which seem to at least be covered by uk legislation.. the obvious downside to me is the hassle of loading toad onto trailer, and securing it, and then where do you keep trailer when on a site pitch, which might incure extra cost abroad as well. Then there is the contentious issue of legality with a frame use abroad, which I personally would not wish to encounter. There is also the extra ferry cost if going abroad, with toad either in trailer form or a frame version..and some perhaps small increase in fuel consumption when towing..offset perhaps by using the toad instead of tower when at your destination The cost of towbar and electrics mod to the tug, has to be considered, but having a towbar on rear of van can help protect against rear end damage.. worth considering. We overcome on site lack of mobility by having a bike rack on rear and carry a pair of ebikes, which whilst not giving the comfort etc of a small car, does mean we are not entirely tied to site, and gives us an alleged health benefit as well..(difficult to beleive that !!!) Whatever you chose, enjoy you motormoming, whereever you go. tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKen1 Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Easy ..............To stay legal UK only .....A Frame (for now ) or Trailer Europe ......Trailer Europe and UK ......Trailer Brian K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 colin - 2015-11-29 10:52 AM No need to wait until next year for any new legislation. Read this link http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/trailers.asp and ask any A frame manufacturer if they can supply the relevant certification. But, as the legislation relates to manufacturers of trailers, and as A-frames are not, in and of themselves trailers, I would contact VCA and ask how they regard A-frames of the type we understand (i.e. not vehicle recovery A-frames). They should be aware of both A-frames for towing cars, and of the argument, broadly accepted hitherto in UK, that a car so towed becomes a trailer. They may have some interesting observations! I'd suggest trying by phone at first, as anything put in writing is liable to get no more than the "party line". People are often more forthcoming in conversation - if you can just get to the right person! Perhaps you could then post the unattributable gist of your anonymous informant's advice - if you are successful? :-) Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 tonyg3nwl - 2015-11-29 11:14 AM Hello, you are obviously up to date re a frame problems abroad, legal or not..that is the question. as a motorhomer and former caravanner of many years, and not wishing to get hassled by the law either in uk or abroad, my instinct would be to stick to the trailer route, which seem to at least be covered by uk legislation.. the obvious downside to me is the hassle of loading toad onto trailer, and securing it, and then where do you keep trailer when on a site pitch, which might incure extra cost abroad as well. Then there is the contentious issue of legality with a frame use abroad, which I personally would not wish to encounter. There is also the extra ferry cost if going abroad, with toad either in trailer form or a frame version..and some perhaps small increase in fuel consumption when towing..offset perhaps by using the toad instead of tower when at your destination The cost of towbar and electrics mod to the tug, has to be considered, but having a towbar on rear of van can help protect against rear end damage.. worth considering. We overcome on site lack of mobility by having a bike rack on rear and carry a pair of ebikes, which whilst not giving the comfort etc of a small car, does mean we are not entirely tied to site, and gives us an alleged health benefit as well..(difficult to beleive that !!!) Whatever you chose, enjoy you motormoming, whereever you go. tonyg3nwl Don't forget new legislation on E bikes-especially in Europe as will have to be taxed, insured and a crash helmet worn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Without opening this can of worms again- We tow a C1 on an A-frame in UK but a trailer with the bike in Europe for 2 reasons- 1) all the legalities especially in Spain where we stay longest and 2) because as the roads are much better, it's nicer to ride the bike in the sunshine. As posted above, you don't have the problem of loading and storing a trailer with an A Frame although our bike trailer is only lightwieght and can be stored on it's side/end easily Both tow like a dream and it's a good job I have a rev camera as it's easy to forget you're towing. Cost wise on the ferry is negligable-Portsmouth/Bilbao is only £35 more for the trailer below 1.83m high. Car on a trailer I would expect to be higher than this so price goes up to caravan size. If you have a good payload available why not go for an A-frame UK and a scooter rack for Europe which could be enjoyable and cost-effective? Oh and legal!! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Hi again, with regard to ebikes being taxed and insured, there seems to be a problem re taxing, as there is no provision so far for this provided they comply with power and speed limits of 15mph.and power of 250 watt motors. higher power off road bikes exist, but they are "off road" bikes, so cant see them being taxed . if taxing is introduced, then presumeably it would also imply testing stations for conformity and for mot type testing as time goes by..as yet they dont exist, . re insurance, currently doesnt seem to be available other than for theft..where can we get 3rd party liability? Re protective headgear, we use conventional cycle helmets..are they adequate, or will new rules be necessary. Rather off original topic, so perhaps we should use a trailer to carry them. tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Brian Kirby - 2015-11-29 12:31 PM colin - 2015-11-29 10:52 AM No need to wait until next year for any new legislation. Read this link http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/trailers.asp and ask any A frame manufacturer if they can supply the relevant certification. But, as the legislation relates to manufacturers of trailers, and as A-frames are not, in and of themselves trailers, I would contact VCA and ask how they regard A-frames of the type we understand (i.e. not vehicle recovery A-frames). They should be aware of both A-frames for towing cars, and of the argument, broadly accepted hitherto in UK, that a car so towed becomes a trailer. They may have some interesting observations! I'd suggest trying by phone at first, as anything put in writing is liable to get no more than the "party line". People are often more forthcoming in conversation - if you can just get to the right person! Perhaps you could then post the unattributable gist of your anonymous informant's advice - if you are successful? :-) Good luck. If you see some of the correspondence between an A frame manufacturer and VOSA , as it was, you will see that they claimed at the time that fitting an A frame made the car into a trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Third party insurance comes with membership of the Cyclists Touring Club ( C T C ) , electric bikes included . Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 colin - 2015-11-29 4:02 PM Brian Kirby - 2015-11-29 12:31 PM colin - 2015-11-29 10:52 AM No need to wait until next year for any new legislation. Read this link http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/trailers.asp and ask any A frame manufacturer if they can supply the relevant certification. But, as the legislation relates to manufacturers of trailers, and as A-frames are not, in and of themselves trailers, I would contact VCA and ask how they regard A-frames of the type we understand (i.e. not vehicle recovery A-frames). They should be aware of both A-frames for towing cars, and of the argument, broadly accepted hitherto in UK, that a car so towed becomes a trailer. They may have some interesting observations! I'd suggest trying by phone at first, as anything put in writing is liable to get no more than the "party line". People are often more forthcoming in conversation - if you can just get to the right person! Perhaps you could then post the unattributable gist of your anonymous informant's advice - if you are successful? :-) Good luck. If you see some of the correspondence between an A frame manufacturer and VOSA , as it was, you will see that they claimed at the time that fitting an A frame made the car into a trailer. Agreed Colin, and there is a widely circulated letter from someone at the DfT supporting that view. However, in the light of the new legislation, I thought it might be instructive to get VCA's take on this (rather than that of a manufacturer in support of his product), as it may now be irrelevant. As they seem to be in the driving seat, It would be interesting to get their interpretation. After all, they may take the view that car towed on an A-frame is not a trailer within the meaning of the Directive, so does not require a Certificate. That might leave us with car that, when towed on an A-frame, is legally neither a car nor a trailer. So, would we then delve yet further into that famous legal "grey area"? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 I can't remember the exact phrase, but VCA recconise that there are 'problems' with A frames and the new trailer legislation. Rather annoyingly I can't find the copies I have of email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Hello Hadrian, I bought my Car-a-tow A-frame 3 years ago off of E-bay, this cost me 195 pounds, 2011 model In excellent condition, had our everyday car converted, with a very substantial draw bar frame concealed under the bodywork, this cost 600 pounds, to be fitted and set up, this is a 2010 Toyota Yaris. I have towed it extensively touring the UK, it has solved the motor home parking problem in the UK for us anyway.You literally don't know that it is there,although I know that it is, because I have twin rear cameras watching it. I can reverse it for about 10 metres , but have only had to do this a few times. I thoroughly recommend, A-frame towing in the UK, but not on the Continent where it is illegal. I did look into buying a trailer,but found not only are they very expensive 1200 pounds I was quoted.But also found that my motor home, an Auto trail Savannah, did not have the legal towing capacity. I have found the overrun braking system to be perfectly adequate.Go for it! As for insurance, I have both car and motor home insured through the Caravan club, fully comprehensive when used indipendantly and when together as a unit. Ray Ps my wife is disabled,so bikes e or normal are out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 You could always try a car towing a caravan. (ducks to avoid incoming flack.) John (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 teflon2 - 2015-11-29 6:17 PM You could always try a car towing a caravan. (ducks to avoid incoming flack.) John (lol)# And a lot cheaper !! If towing a car behind a motor home , WHY? Makes more sense to tow a caravan IMO Less road tax as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 PJay - 2015-11-29 6:34 PM teflon2 - 2015-11-29 6:17 PM You could always try a car towing a caravan. (ducks to avoid incoming flack.) John (lol)# And a lot cheaper !! If towing a car behind a motor home , WHY? Makes more sense to tow a caravan IMO Less road tax as well no flack,but already tried that thanks, caravans are unstable nasty things to tow,and awkward to move about when not hooked up, much prefer a motor home, .... and a small car behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancepar Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Don't be sorry, it's good to talk!! My take on things having a Toad myself. A towed vehicle attached to another vehicle with an A-frame is technically a trailer and has to comply with the relevant UK laws as such regarding braking, lighting, speeds and train weights. Therefore if it is legal in the UK it is legal in the rest of the EU. Some countries have their own laws that state broken down vehicles must be recovered by recognized breakdown vehicles, a working vehicle behind a motorhome is not broken down and is not the same, but you won’t win an argument with a non-English speaking official of that country. Back to the UK, trailers less than 750kg don’t need brakes, but if the trailer of any weight is fitted with brakes they must be operational when the towed vehicle is attached to its Tug. The recent scare regarding overrun brakes, in my opinion relates to HGV trailers and unfortunately little trailers have been unfairly sucked into the debate. I don’t recall caravans havening to be fitted with anything but overrun brakes, but as I am out of touch with caravanning, I could be wrong. Yes there are negatives such as reversing with an A-frame, this is always to the forefront when I’m towing especially on non roll-on roll-off ferries, but unhooking and driving the Toad is an easy option. I debated whether to buy a car trailer or not, but decided on an A-Frame and don’t regret it, but have no plans to tow abroad, if I did then hiring a car trailer could be an option. Don’t forget there will be a negligible nose-weight with a Toad. My Smarty is my own everyday car, so using it behind the Motorhome makes perfect sense to us when the need/situation arises. B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Hadrian I believe that the advice on this link http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/a-frames.shtml continues to be valid as far as the UK is concerned, and I’m not aware of any changes to UK motoring regulations (next year or later) that would change matters. (‘Hinting’ is no good - if your local motorhome dealer has information that could affect your decision-making, you’d be well advised to demand what that information is and the source.) Off-topic somewhat, but there was an interesting A-frame-related letter in the November 2015 issue of the French motorhome magazine “Le Monde du Camping-Car”. The writer said that he had ordered an A-frame system, paid €1000 deposit and then found it impossible to obtain insurance cover (presumably for when the car was being towed). The vendor of the A-frame system refused to refund the deposit and the letter-writer was warning other French motorcaravanners considering A-framing to check the insurance position before going down that road. It was widely reported in French leisure-vehicle magazines in 2014 that the French authorities had stated categorically that a motorhome towing a car on an A-frame conflicted with the French Highway Code, but this did not seem to stop A-frame systems from being marketed in France, nor dissuade French motorcaravanners from buying those systems and using them. However, if French insurance companies are now taking the view that the practice is illegal for French motorists and consequently won’t provide insurance cover (which is the reason the letter-writer was suggesting had prevented him obtaining insurance) things might well change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Derek, A change to how British Insurance companies treated A-Frame towed cars, could change the situation here too, luckily British Insurers are still prepared to cover both car and towing vehicle, both individually and when hooked up together.At least the CC are. Long may they continue to do so. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Why should UK insurance providers choose to change their present attitude? It’s not as if any UK authorities are stating that motorhome A-framing in this country conflicts with our Highway Code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hadrian Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 Brian Kirby - 2015-11-29 12:31 PM colin - 2015-11-29 10:52 AM No need to wait until next year for any new legislation. Read this link http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/trailers.asp and ask any A frame manufacturer if they can supply the relevant certification. But, as the legislation relates to manufacturers of trailers, and as A-frames are not, in and of themselves trailers, I would contact VCA and ask how they regard A-frames of the type we understand (i.e. not vehicle recovery A-frames). They should be aware of both A-frames for towing cars, and of the argument, broadly accepted hitherto in UK, that a car so towed becomes a trailer. They may have some interesting observations! I'd suggest trying by phone at first, as anything put in writing is liable to get no more than the "party line". People are often more forthcoming in conversation - if you can just get to the right person! Perhaps you could then post the unattributable gist of your anonymous informant's advice - if you are successful? :-) Good luck. I phoned the Midlands VCA Office today and spoke to a very helpful engineer. The official view of the VCA is that A-frames used in the way we are discussing here may be OK if being used in the UK but not in Europe, he did not specify any particular country in Europe. Some A-frame manufacturers have sought type approval for their A-frame, and indeed some have been issued with the appropriate certification. However, that is only for the A-frame itself and once it is attached to a vehicle the legally defined trailer they become, consisting of a type approved car and a type approved A-frame, DOES NOT become a type approved trailer. I found his comments extremely helpful and it was nice to hear someone impartial confirm what I already knew - A-frame towing is a grey area in the UK! Also, he said there is no pending legislation that would affect A-frames that he was aware of. On another reassuring note, I am encouraged by the fact the Caravan Club are happy to insure a towed car irrespective of it being driven or towed on an A-frame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 lancepar - 2015-11-30 1:24 PM...........................A towed vehicle attached to another vehicle with an A-frame is technically a trailer and has to comply with the relevant UK laws as such regarding braking, lighting, speeds and train weights. Therefore if it is legal in the UK it is legal in the rest of the EU. Some countries have their own laws that state broken down vehicles must be recovered by recognized breakdown vehicles, a working vehicle behind a motorhome is not broken down and is not the same, but you won’t win an argument with a non-English speaking official of that country........................................... I'm afraid this is a misunderstanding Lance. First, a car towed on an A-frame is not "technically" (or legally) a trailer. There are no regulations that specifically cover cars towed on A-frames: the combination is neither prohibited, not authorised. So, it falls into a legal "grey area" in UK that, in the absence of regulations or legislation to the contrary, allows it to be treated as a trailer. Once outside the UK however, there are specific laws that prohibit one vehicle from towing another - by any means. There are two exceptions. First. where the tow vehicle is a licensed breakdown recovery vehicle. Second, (in France only, AFAIK) if a vehicle has broken down, when it may be towed by any vehicle, but only using a rigid towpole, slowly, with hazard flashers on, and only far enough to clear it from the road, or to a nearby garage for repair. The act of towing over long distances, on an A-frame, at normal speeds, with a non breakdown vehicle, simply breaks the national laws on both counts. The French police seem to turn "Nelson's eye" to foreign registered vehicles A-framing, but the legislation has not been changed or repealed. The Spanish have various police forces, some of which enforce, some of which apparently don't. So, one may generally get away with it in France, but one is quite likely to be stopped in Spain and either fined, or made to uncouple the car and drive it separately. It is not a case of foreign police forces misunderstanding the Vienna convention, or not understanding their own laws properly. A-framing in either country is illegal under their national laws. Sorry. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Hadrian - 2015-11-30 5:08 PM........................On another reassuring note, I am encouraged by the fact the Caravan Club are happy to insure a towed car irrespective of it being driven or towed on an A-frame Hadrian, AFAIK, most UK insurers will do this. As Derek says above, what reason would they have for not doing so? The combination has not been demonstrated to be dangerous (quite the opposite, I think), and is not illegal. So, the question of whether or not to insure merely falls to be decided on commercial risk. The third party risks from the towed car are covered under the towing vehicle's insurance. The only potential stumbling block would be over whether the car insurer is happy to maintain the accidental damage, fire, and theft, cover on the car while it is being towed. I think someone did once report a problem with this, but the great majority do not. It may be easier to insure both vehicles with the same company (less ground for dispute were the worst to happen), and easier still if that is one of the companies familiar with motorhome, and A-framed car, insurances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Out of curiosity !! Not intending to tow Do people who adapt a car for A Frame , Tell the DVLA ? As I believe that you should inform them of any change to the original vehicle ? Also the insurers ? PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Just a point for RayJSJ, properly set up and an appropriate match with the car/caravan, they are neither nasty nor unstable. Provided you do not require one of those enormous awnings, and have sensible accessories and equipment to set up your van they are no more time consuming to pitch than a motorhome, and if fitted with a motormover are much easier to maneuver than a motorhome. I have found that with the exception of the big RV we used to own, the style and comfort of our caravans was better, for us, than the motorhomes. As a final thought, we generally ended our vacations in the South of France, and then made a mad dash for Calais and home. The fastest journey ever was in our Ford Galaxy towing a Swift Concourer. If you like motorhomes that's fine, if they work for you that's also fine, but please don't make foolish remarks that might offend people. My dear wife prefers motorhomes, I prefer a car towing a caravan, so we have a motorhome, it's a snob thing. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.