A-frames vs trailers again, sorry!

[colin]

Hadrian - 2015-11-30 5:08 PM

 

 

Some A-frame manufacturers have sought type approval for their A-frame, and indeed some have been issued with the appropriate certification. However, that is only for the A-frame itself and once it is attached to a vehicle the legally defined trailer they become, consisting of a type approved car and a type approved A-frame, DOES NOT become a type approved trailer.

 

An interesting take on the matter, I guess that's why we have recently had several reports of A frames being ripped off the front of cars,

[Mike B.]

tonyg3nwl - 2015-11-29 3:52 PM

 

Hi again,

with regard to ebikes being taxed and insured, there seems to be a problem re taxing, as there is no provision so far for this provided they comply with power and speed limits of 15mph.and power of 250 watt motors.

 

higher power off road bikes exist, but they are "off road" bikes, so cant see them being taxed .

 

if taxing is introduced, then presumeably it would also imply testing stations for conformity and for mot type testing as time goes by..as yet they dont exist, .

 

re insurance, currently doesnt seem to be available other than for theft..where can we get 3rd party liability?

 

Re protective headgear, we use conventional cycle helmets..are they adequate, or will new rules be necessary.

 

Rather off original topic, so perhaps we should use a trailer to carry them.

 

tonyg3nwl

 

 

New regs coming in to conform with EU. Bikes purchased before this will be exempt in UK.

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

https://www.juicybike.co.uk/uk-europe-ebike-law

 

Yes it was off original topic but felt it was relevent to the reply

Mike

[Rayjsj]

colin - 2015-11-30 8:03 PM

 

Hadrian - 2015-11-30 5:08 PM

 

 

Some A-frame manufacturers have sought type approval for their A-frame, and indeed some have been issued with the appropriate certification. However, that is only for the A-frame itself and once it is attached to a vehicle the legally defined trailer they become, consisting of a type approved car and a type approved A-frame, DOES NOT become a type approved trailer.

 

An interesting take on the matter, I guess that's why we have recently had several reports of A frames being ripped off the front of cars,

I watched the drawbar frame being fitted to the front of my Toyota, it is far more substantial than the original cross member it replaced, ripping it off would require completely destroying the car. so, not a Car-a tow frame.

[Rayjsj]

Archiesgrandad - 2015-11-30 7:17 PM

 

Just a point for RayJSJ, properly set up and an appropriate match with the car/caravan, they are neither nasty nor unstable. Provided you do not require one of those enormous awnings, and have sensible accessories and equipment to set up your van they are no more time consuming to pitch than a motorhome, and if fitted with a motormover are much easier to maneuver than a motorhome. I have found that with the exception of the big RV we used to own, the style and comfort of our caravans was better, for us, than the motorhomes. As a final thought, we generally ended our vacations in the South of France, and then made a mad dash for Calais and home. The fastest journey ever was in our Ford Galaxy towing a Swift Concourer. If you like motorhomes that's fine, if they work for you that's also fine, but please don't make foolish remarks that might offend people.

My dear wife prefers motorhomes, I prefer a car towing a caravan, so we have a motorhome, it's a snob thing.

AGD

sorry,it wasn't my intention to offend, I should have added IMO.

I owned and towed 3 caravans over 15 years. With various towcars. Some good,some awful.(they were Company cars,and I had little choice) and had some very hairy snaking moments,which effectively put me off of caravans Im afraid.This was before all the new electronic anti-snaking devices and prior to motor movers.

[colin]

Rayjsj - 2015-11-30 10:57 PM

 

colin - 2015-11-30 8:03 PM

 

Hadrian - 2015-11-30 5:08 PM

 

 

Some A-frame manufacturers have sought type approval for their A-frame, and indeed some have been issued with the appropriate certification. However, that is only for the A-frame itself and once it is attached to a vehicle the legally defined trailer they become, consisting of a type approved car and a type approved A-frame, DOES NOT become a type approved trailer.

 

An interesting take on the matter, I guess that's why we have recently had several reports of A frames being ripped off the front of cars,

I watched the drawbar frame being fitted to the front of my Toyota, it is far more substantial than the original cross member it replaced, ripping it off would require completely destroying the car. so, not a Car-a tow frame.

 

Here is a copy of part of a post. on MH Facts by 'Tony from Taunton'

 

 

"My Peugeot 207 was a complete right off after the cross bar that attaches between the main fixing to chassis on the car that was fitted by Car-A-Tow system snapped while towing in the south of France on the Motorway."

 

[Derek Uzzell]

PJay - 2015-11-30 6:50 PM

 

Out of curiosity !! Not intending to tow

Do people who adapt a car for A Frame , Tell the DVLA ? As I believe that you should inform them of any change to the original vehicle ? Also the insurers ?

 

 

PJay

 

This website mentions notifying the DVLA of vehicle modifications

 

http://www.the-ace.org.uk/existing-registered-vehicles-the-8-point-rule-and-retrospective-biva/

 

and refers to the INF26 guidance document

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/168405/response/409901/attach/2/inf26%201.pdf

 

The DVLA does not need to be told when a rear-mounted tow-bar is fitted to a vehicle, so there’s no particular reason to believe the DVLA would need to be informed when a towing attachment is fitted to the vehicle’s front.

 

I would expect a UK insurance provider to wish to be made aware that an A-frame towing attachment had been added to a car and this would normally become evident when the owner of the car that has been A-frame-modified seeks insurance for when the car is being towed. What happens insurance-provider-wise if the modified car is then sold to someone who chooses not to tow it is anybody’s guess. Does the new owner tell his/her insurer that the car has had a hefty steel structure shoehorned into the vehicle’s crumple zone - who knows?

[PeteH]

As someone who started caravanning circa 1970. And went to a R-V, when they told my wife she should no longer travel long distances without regular breaks, May I say:- I have "Toaded" all over the USA, 15000+miles in fact. Where the practice is universally accepted. I have never been able to understand the "European Phobia" against the practice. But then, That`s Europe!. (Stupidity personified IMHO). The pro`s and cons are well known, and as (allegedly) free persons we can make educated choices according to our will. There are known arguments for and against the practice. Having recently returned to the use of a Motor-home, after a 3 year break during which we had a Caravan, that which we discarded largely because neither myself nor my (disabled) wife could sit comfortably in the Seating, whereas now we have a "Captains" chair each with a leg-rest (side bench). I tow an old Punto on "A" frame. AND IT WORKS FOR US!. It is however a Grey area. having (unlike "Dolly" Frames) never been tested in the law courts. BTW, I Know from experience that my (now) rig is far quicker to set -up than a Caravan!. Unless or until they are the subject of a "test" case (as happened with "Dolly" frames) then the legality is not an issue. Any debate as to the "technical" aspect of use is just that, a debate!.

 

BTW. US Style "tow dollys" are completely reversible!. I know, I brought a Rental car from Florida to Texas on a "U-Haul" one, Behind the R-V when we Bought It!, It is also IMHO an even better device than an "A" frame but has been judged as "legal only for the recovery of disabled vehicles" by the Courts Circa 1975ish.

 

IF, I decide in the future to go back to Spain, as we did for many years prior to choosing the USA. I would likely buy a Smart and Trailer it, JUST to avoid the hassle of being "pulled" by Spanish "plod" (3 times). Someone makes (made) a trailer with a folding Draw bar, and that would take up the least space on site. ( one guy I know, put plywood base on the trailer and used it for a Gazebo, to Barbecue in / on!).

 

 

 

Pete

 

 

[colin]

PeteH - 2015-12-01 7:31 PM

 

May I say:- I have "Toaded" all over the USA, 15000+miles in fact. Where the practice is universally accepted.

 

I've stated my view before about this, but just for you I'll repeat.

As you rightly say in north america there must be millions of miles of proof that A frames work, BUT this has primarily been with vehicles which have a ladder frame chassis, in europe (and only just recently north america) the main cars of choice have front ends designed to collapse on impact, bolting an Aframe to one of these newer designed cars has been shown to cause problems.

[Rayjsj]

 

 

An interesting take on the matter, I guess that's why we have recently had several reports of A frames being ripped off the front of cars,

I watched the drawbar frame being fitted to the front of my Toyota, it is far more substantial than the original cross member it replaced, ripping it off would require completely destroying the car. so, not a Car-a tow frame.

 

Here is a copy of part of a post. on MH Facts by 'Tony from Taunton'

 

 

"My Peugeot 207 was a complete right off after the cross bar that attaches between the main fixing to chassis on the car that was fitted by Car-A-Tow system snapped while towing in the south of France on the Motorway."

 

I don't doubt what Tony from Taunton says, I don't visit MH facts so didn't see the post, I can only speak for my own vehicle and it's safety, as I said,I saw the cross member being fitted. It IS strong, it would not snap, unless hit by a 44 tonne truck.

Being towed by a motor home does put considerable strain on the front of the vehicle,but the drawbar is strong enough to handle it. No notification to the DVLA is required when fitting a towbar to either the rear or the FRONT of a vehicle, yes you can fit a towbar to the front, and many (mainly SUV's it is true, but not many have separate chassis these days) have them.

[PeteH]

colin - 2015-12-01 8:06 PM

 

PeteH - 2015-12-01 7:31 PM

 

May I say:- I have "Toaded" all over the USA, 15000+miles in fact. Where the practice is universally accepted.

 

I've stated my view before about this, but just for you I'll repeat.

As you rightly say in north america there must be millions of miles of proof that A frames work, BUT this has primarily been with vehicles which have a ladder frame chassis, in europe (and only just recently north america) the main cars of choice have front ends designed to collapse on impact, bolting an Aframe to one of these newer designed cars has been shown to cause problems.

 

There. Is primarily NO Difference between the structural strength of the "Front" on any Current Vehicle and the rear. Both are (probably) designed to "crumple" in a collision. So Why is it going to be LESS safe to connect a "Tow bar" to the front end. than to the rear.? I suspect any "damage" (recorded) as suffered due long term use, has been caused by either previous (unrecorded?) collision OR ABUSE. But unlikely by sole use of a Tow frame.

 

Pete

 

Pete

[Muswell]

The anchorage points for a rear tow bar have been designed by the car manufacturer's engineers who will understand how the structure behaves. The anchorage points for an A frame will be fitted by some bloke who looks for a point he thinks is strong enough. I'm not saying it won't be OK but I wouldn't have the same confidence as I would in the approved installation.

[pepe63xnotuse]

This has been done to death......but what the hell.... (lol)

 

Re ;"Tony from Taunton"- and his cross bar that "snapped"...

I would've thought it more probable that a weld had let go (or the fixing point on the chassis had torn?), either way, what ever happened, it's not good and certainly an area I'd be keeping a close eye on(as there have been other similar cases mentioned online).

 

How many of these A Frame manufacturers get "approval" from - or work in conjunction with - the towed vehicle manufactures, when designing/constructing their front mounting points etc?.....

(Don't towbars need to be of an "approved" type nowadays?..if so, it seems a nonsense that chunks of "un-approved" ironwork can be just bolted onto the fronts..?).

 

How many approved rear towbars do we hear of snapping/failing/tearing away? ( and there must thousands of them being used..)

 

This has been posted before but just watch how this towed car get unceremoniously shoved backwards, scrubbing it's tyres, with the wheels on the wrong lock...and then watch the steering wheel, as it violently throws a fit when pulling forwards...

(and that's their own promo' video :-S)

 

Very mechanically un-sympathetic and it's certainly not how I'd want a car of mine to be treated.

 

..and cameras or not, I bet the vast majority of a-framers wouldn't even know that was happening.

:-S

Sorry Muswell, crossed your post

[colin]

PeteH - 2015-12-02 7:38 AM

 

colin - 2015-12-01 8:06 PM

 

PeteH - 2015-12-01 7:31 PM

 

May I say:- I have "Toaded" all over the USA, 15000+miles in fact. Where the practice is universally accepted.

 

I've stated my view before about this, but just for you I'll repeat.

As you rightly say in north america there must be millions of miles of proof that A frames work, BUT this has primarily been with vehicles which have a ladder frame chassis, in europe (and only just recently north america) the main cars of choice have front ends designed to collapse on impact, bolting an Aframe to one of these newer designed cars has been shown to cause problems.

 

There. Is primarily NO Difference between the structural strength of the "Front" on any Current Vehicle and the rear. Both are (probably) designed to "crumple" in a collision. So Why is it going to be LESS safe to connect a "Tow bar" to the front end. than to the rear.? I suspect any "damage" (recorded) as suffered due long term use, has been caused by either previous (unrecorded?) collision OR ABUSE. But unlikely by sole use of a Tow frame.

 

Pete

 

Pete

 

You are wrong on three counts.

Vehicles nowadays have mounting points designed into them for tow bars, they aren't designed to have an Aframe bolted to the front.

The loadings imposed on the vehicles structure are very different,

All the cases I've heard of have been fairly new cars, As many people have found out, it doesn't take much of a frontal impact to write off a modern car.

 

p.s.you wait for a bus to come along, then three turn up at nearly the same time :D

[Rayjsj]

A-frames are NOT knocked together by some bloke in his shed, they are professionally engineered, and are made specifically for makes and model ranges of vehicles, as towbar's are. They are not made by a bunch of cowboys out for a quick buck, Car-a-tow, have been making them for over 20 years, and selling them through this magazine for all that time. They fill a much needed niche, and if you don't like the idea, you are not forced to buy one.

As for safety, if you can point to a spike of accidents caused by A-frames, I would be very interested to see it, but facts please, not rumour and innuendo.

 

So, Hadrian, there you have it,some of us love them,and some pathologically hate them, me, I love em.

 

Saying that all vehicles being towed behind RVs in the USA have ladder chassis, is not correct,and a very sweeping statement, again no spike in accidents attributable to A-frame use. They are safe.

[pepe63xnotuse]

Just to lighten the tone a bit...

 

These guys know what they're doin'...being "in the motor trade" an' all 8-)

 

 

 

(the language is somewhat colourful though...)

[Steve928]

I was under the impression front crumple zones also played a role in lessening damage and injury to that impacted by the vehicle. I wonder where you'd stand if your vehicle's modified and re-inforced front end caused damage to another vehicle, or injury or death to a cyclist or pedestrian? Not a rhetorical question as I don't know the answer.

 

 

[vindiboy]

Everyone has  choice off course , but it beats me why anyone would want to drag a car behind a Motorhome either on a trailer or A Frame, soooooo much unneeded hassle as I see it, I would revert back to a car and caravan before I did that.I had caravans for years and toured Europe extensively, I now have a Motorhome and do the same , we have bikes , one of them is Electric but that was a mistake too as Spain is a Hassle with them , in England we use the busses with an

 Oldies bus pass, works for us .

[colin]

Rayjsj - 2015-12-02 9:13 AM

 

 

Saying that all vehicles being towed behind RVs in the USA have ladder chassis, is not correct,and a very sweeping statement,.

 

It's a good job then that nobody has said "all".

[colin]

Steve928 - 2015-12-02 10:33 AM

 

I was under the impression front crumple zones also played a role in lessening damage and injury to that impacted by the vehicle. I wonder where you'd stand if your vehicle's modified and re-inforced front end caused damage to another vehicle, or injury or death to a cyclist or pedestrian? Not a rhetorical question as I don't know the answer.

 

 

On the face of it, this is where the VCA 'statement' earlier seems to fall down, by modifying the front structure of a vehicle how is it still type approved? Changing the front structure may make it better or may make it worse in an accident, has this calculated or tested?

As for your own liability! I'm no expert, but if the insurance company has been informed they should cover any costs,

Could the CPS make any case against you? I don't know, my gut feeling is no.

[Brian Kirby]

Rayjsj - 2015-12-02 9:13 AM

 

A-frames are NOT knocked together by some bloke in his shed, they are professionally engineered, and are made specifically for makes and model ranges of vehicles, as towbar's are. They are not made by a bunch of cowboys out for a quick buck, Car-a-tow, have been making them for over 20 years, and selling them through this magazine for all that time. They fill a much needed niche, and if you don't like the idea, you are not forced to buy one...................................

Ray, the difference, as stated above, between towbar mountings and A-frame attachment points is that the designer of the car's structure is involved in, and dictates, the permissible loads on, and positions of, the tow bar's attachment points. OTOH, they have no knowledge at all of what may be added where, at the front of a car, to attach an A-frame. Equating one with the other is to compare apples with pomegranites. Neither, it would seem, has the designer of A-frame fixings access to the design parameters for the car bodyshell. They may both be clever people, they may even both be MIMechE or equivalent qualified engineers (though I do wonder how many A-frame designers actually have the relevant qualifications), but without sharing that vital data they may as well speak Latin on the one hand, and Greek on the other. So, IMO, it is not unfair to characterise them as knocking up their A-frames in their sheds.

 

All cars have a towing eye (some two) at the front that is designed to cope with the limited stresses of short distance towing of a broken down vehicle. During that process it is expected that someone will be inside the towed vehicle to steer it and operate its brakes. No cars are designed to have those points used to mount an A-frame on which they will be towed for thousands of miles, and they are not designed to tolerate the ad-hoc interventions necessary to make those alternative attachment points.

 

Cars are designed to absorb frontal impacts, including pedestrian impacts, to do which they must deform. To be able to sustain the claims you are making it would be necessary for each make and model of car to be crash tested with the A-frame attachment present, as happens to the unmodified car bodyshell during its development. They are not, and the outcomes of such impacts are therefore unforeseeable. Such interventions cannot be described as "engineered", they are the product of guesswork, albeit possibly educated guesswork.

 

Before you say I am "anti" A-frames, I have no axe to grind one way or another regarding the flat-towing of cars with A-frames. I agree that the idea is attractive, and am unaware that it is any more dangerous than any other form of towing. I just have serious reservations about people mucking about with finely balanced, sophisticated, complex, designed structures in the absence of a full understanding of how those structures actually work.

[donna miller]

Far too many "In my opinions", "I don't think so's", " I would have thought", "I do it all over the USA/World" and you know what?. Not one of them will stand up in a court of law should you be taken there.

Trying to compare an A frame unit to a towbar is ridiculous, it's like saying a windscreen is the same as a rear window. It's not, they are designed to do different jobs.

Maybe the moderators should consider blocking A frame threads as they now serve no usefull purpose other than to bring out the same answers from the same people every time.

[PJay]

donna miller - 2015-12-02 2:55 PM

 

Far too many "In my opinions", "I don't think so's", " I would have thought", "I do it all over the USA/World" and you know what?. Not one of them will stand up in a court of law should you be taken there.

Trying to compare an A frame unit to a towbar is ridiculous, it's like saying a windscreen is the same as a rear window. It's not, they are designed to do different jobs.

Maybe the moderators should consider blocking A frame threads as they now serve no usefull purpose other than to bring out the same answers from the same people every time.

 

Well said Donna

All answers are opinions

PJay

[Muswell]

Rayjsj - 2015-12-02 9:13 AM

 

they are professionally engineered

 

What does that mean? Unfortunately in this country the term engineer can be used by anyone with 2 spanners and a hammer. In Germany, Italy etc. engineer is a title like doctor which cannot be used unless you have the proper qualifications.

[Brian Kirby]

Muswell - 2015-12-02 5:21 PM

 

Rayjsj - 2015-12-02 9:13 AM

 

they are professionally engineered

 

What does that mean? Unfortunately in this country the term engineer can be used by anyone with 2 spanners and a hammer. In Germany, Italy etc. engineer is a title like doctor which cannot be used unless you have the proper qualifications.

But it is a dangerous qualification to pray in aid, unless you carry an appropriate qualification - usually membership of one of the engineering institutions (MIMechE, Eur Eng, MICE, MIStructE, MIEE etc). If, having claimed to be an engineer, and having sold your products or services on the strength of that claim, they were found, when examined by a "proper" engineer, to be a "garden shed fabrication" made by someone who actually had no such qualification, you'd be in for a proper legal drubbing. It's a bit like claiming expertise when not an acknowledged expert, a half decent barrister would have you in pieces on the courtroom floor in very little time. One needs to see the actual qualifications of the designer/s before placing too much faith in the claims of someone selling supposedly "engineered" products.

[audiseller]

Haven't seen that clip before. Absolutely horrendous. Would anyone really abuse their car like that? I have a-framed for a few years and have only ever reversed in a straight line and gently enough not to activate the overrun brakes. I have only ever had to do this twice. I have a jockey wheel on mine and it is very easy to disconnect from the van and manoevre the car independently. I personally wouldn't use the flimsy looking flat bar frame shown in the video either.

 

Apologies, this post was meant to refer to pepe63's you tube video above