Glanrid Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Hi been reading some of the back issues on both this and some of the many other sites interested in the A Frame issue “ are they legal “ my gut response is no, but i base this opinion purely on the grounds that i don’t know enough about the subject and would prefer air on the side of caution until i do . I do know however that from an insurance point of view the vehicle being towed once detached from the A Frame may very well become illegal unless some very important precautions are taken . Every insurance policy issued on a vehicle in the UK has a statement with in it saying “ has this vehicle been altered in any way , if so it is the owners responsibility to advise us “ the fitting of an automatic braking system to a car that the owner wishes to tow with an A frame very much comes under this all encompassing clause . It may well be that once the insurance company have been advised that this work has been carried out to your car they wish for no further action to be tacken , they may wish to know who carried out the work? ; they could ask for an engineers report to check that the work had been done satisfactorily . As far as relying on your MoT to indicate that everything is fine forget it , it certainly doesn’t come under the examiners remit to check something that you have chosen to add to your car , in fact it is totally the opposite . In the worst case scenario were the car to become involved in an RTA that as a result of which there was a fatalaty the car would almost certainly be subject to a full engineers report the findings of which would be made available to owners insurance company . Trust me work like this would not be missed and if it were to be the case thatthe insurance company had not been advised , well lets not go down that road . Exactly the same principle apples to all after marketing add ons including the " remapping” of the engine by all means do it but stay on the safe side and advise your insurance company that its been done . Happy days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Fear not Glanrid, we A- framers are not stupid, or cavalier enough to chance towing our cars uninsured by not disclosing the fitting of the drawbar frame. I insure both my Motorhome and my car (which I drive everyday,not just for holidays) with the same Insurer, the Caravan Club, who were made fully aware that they would be used together as a unit. Also they are insured fully comprehensively whether hitched together, or on their own. I find the unit tows very well, brakes adequately, I can even reverse it enough to get me out of tricky situations. In short it fullfills my requirements perfectly. By the way, there is another very recent thread on this very subject, scroll down for it. AND welcome to the Forum. Ps I assume the piece of equipment you refer to is the Break-Away cable ? That automatically applies the cars brakes should the unit separate ? Yes, A-frames ,of course, have one of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Rayjsj - 2015-12-13 7:19 PM Fear not Glanrid, we A- framers are not stupid, or cavalier enough to chance towing our cars uninsured by not disclosing the fitting of the drawbar frame. I insure both my Motorhome and my car (which I drive everyday,not just for holidays) with the same Insurer, the Caravan Club, who were made fully aware that they would be used together as a unit. Also they are insured fully comprehensively whether hitched together, or on their own. I find the unit tows very well, brakes adequately, I can even reverse it enough to get me out of tricky situations. In short it fullfills my requirements perfectly. By the way, there is another very recent thread on this very subject, scroll down for it. AND welcome to the Forum. Ps I assume the piece of equipment you refer to is the Break-Away cable ? That automatically applies the cars brakes should the unit separate ? Yes, A-frames ,of course, have one of those. Took the words out of my mouth ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glanrid Posted December 14, 2015 Author Share Posted December 14, 2015 Hi , sorry i don't i made my self very clear . There are basically two different types of braking systems on offer for A frame towing . The earlier and more basic just relied on the inertia created when braking to apply the brakes on the towed vehicle to apply its own brakes via a cable attached through the bulk head on then to the brake peddle via a simple clevis pin . Nothing could be more simple , ( legal ! i have no idea ) as soon as you detach the car from the A frame you can drive away as normal . The only difference in the cars condition and that which it was manufactured in is a hole in the bulk head . a hole in the brake peddle and a redundant cable ( legal i have no idea ) don't forget you must ! remove the towing bar that you have attached to the front of the car to be towed . If you were to drive around with it still attached that would be illegal in the UK as they do not comply with the fitting of Bull bars safety standards . The second and far more difficult to fit are the replacement servo pump type fitted directly to the car being towed and operated via a twelve volt system from the tow vehicle ( legal i have no idea ) . These systems involve cutting into the the cars existing brake hydraulic system and take quite a bit of work to fit and set up properly . Once the car with this system fitted is detached from the A frame and driven away it its now in a very different condition than that which the manufacture sold it in . Ive fitted both types for different people over the years and have gone out of my way to tell them that once they take it on the road it is their responsibility to check that they are legal and insured . Some people get very " up tight " when you mention Government legislation etc and their pride and joy car , but trust me these rules are not there to give insurance companies a get out " clause " they are they to protect you and i both . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Glanrid - 2015-12-14 11:09 AM The only difference in the cars condition and that which it was manufactured in is a hole in the bulk head . a hole in the brake peddle and a redundant cable ( legal i have no idea ) don't forget you must ! remove the towing bar that you have attached to the front of the car to be towed . If you were to drive around with it still attached that would be illegal in the UK as they do not comply with the fitting of Bull bars safety standards . AFAIK the only A frames which leave no 'trace' after removal are recovery A frames, IIRC these have been tested in court and are only legal for recovery. A frames such as 'Car-A-tow' etc, require the modification of the front structure of car to provide the fitment points, this remains on the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Colin is correct, a front cross member is removed, and replaced with a drawbar frame, with equal if not superior structural strength. This is concealed under the car body, a small bar is left on the front of the vehicle to connect the A-frame to. It hardly equates to a Bull bar, and is no worse than a front mounted winch, or a front mounted tow ball, both of which are often mounted on 4x4s and SUVS. Quite legally. My A-frame has the earlier, but legal (as fitted to all caravans) overrun braking system, with a breakaway cable incorporated. Must admit the car has never broken away, to test it live, but by a hand test the system works correctly. A-frames have been in use in the USA for many many years, without causing an increase in the accident rate, and I suspect not many in the UK ? Unless someone has some statistics to prove otherwise ? Works very well and safely, fulfills a specific niche, I can recommend it. BUT don't try using them on the Continent, where towing one vehicle with another is illegal. When Insuring your A-frame fitted car, make sure you go to an Insurer who understands what an A-frame is and how the car is modified. Not all of them do.I went to the CC. Who knew what I was talking about. Happy A-framing ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Glanrid - 2015-12-14 11:09 AM Hi , sorry i don't i made my self very clear . There are basically two different types of braking systems on offer for A frame towing . The earlier and more basic just relied on the inertia created when braking to apply the brakes on the towed vehicle to apply its own brakes via a cable attached through the bulk head on then to the brake peddle via a simple clevis pin . Nothing could be more simple , ( legal ! i have no idea ) as soon as you detach the car from the A frame you can drive away as normal . The only difference in the cars condition and that which it was manufactured in is a hole in the bulk head . a hole in the brake peddle and a redundant cable ( legal i have no idea ) don't forget you must ! remove the towing bar that you have attached to the front of the car to be towed . If you were to drive around with it still attached that would be illegal in the UK as they do not comply with the fitting of Bull bars safety standards . The second and far more difficult to fit are the replacement servo pump type fitted directly to the car being towed and operated via a twelve volt system from the tow vehicle ( legal i have no idea ) . These systems involve cutting into the the cars existing brake hydraulic system and take quite a bit of work to fit and set up properly . Once the car with this system fitted is detached from the A frame and driven away it its now in a very different condition than that which the manufacture sold it in . Ive fitted both types for different people over the years and have gone out of my way to tell them that once they take it on the road it is their responsibility to check that they are legal and insured . Some people get very " up tight " when you mention Government legislation etc and their pride and joy car , but trust me these rules are not there to give insurance companies a get out " clause " they are they to protect you and i both . I hadn't realised that the non-overrun systems actually breached the car's hydraulic system. That would certainly make it a no-no for me and also for anyone with a car under manufacturer's warranty I would think. I'll stick with my overrun system which I have had on the last 3 cars and works superbly. It's simple, doesn't interfere with the hydraulics and can exert at least as much pedal pressure as a driver could. It's good enough to brake a heavy caravan so for a lightweight car it's a no brainer. I don't know if modern caravans even have disc brakes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Whoops, duplicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilmac Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 audiseller - 2015-12-14 7:08 PM I hadn't realised that the non-overrun systems actually breached the car's hydraulic system. That would certainly make it a no-no for me and also for anyone with a car under manufacturer's warranty I would think. I'll stick with my overrun system which I have had on the last 3 cars and works superbly. It's simple, doesn't interfere with the hydraulics and can exert at least as much pedal pressure as a driver could. It's good enough to brake a heavy caravan so for a lightweight car it's a no brainer. I don't know if modern caravans even have disc brakes? That doesn't have to be the case at all.... We have an electronic braking system that simply sits in the driver's footwell and physically applies the brake pedal as necessary. This runs from its own servo assistance powered by a 12V supply. It brakes in proportion to the towing vehicle and doesn't apply in reverse so with practice reversing the whole unit is perfectly possible. The unit is called RVi2 - mine came from Towtal. When finished towing its just unclipped from the brake pedal and a couple of wiring connections and stored away with the a-frame. Absolutely no need to interfere with the cars hydraulics at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 neilmac - 2015-12-14 8:44 PM audiseller - 2015-12-14 7:08 PM I hadn't realised that the non-overrun systems actually breached the car's hydraulic system. That would certainly make it a no-no for me and also for anyone with a car under manufacturer's warranty I would think. I'll stick with my overrun system which I have had on the last 3 cars and works superbly. It's simple, doesn't interfere with the hydraulics and can exert at least as much pedal pressure as a driver could. It's good enough to brake a heavy caravan so for a lightweight car it's a no brainer. I don't know if modern caravans even have disc brakes? That doesn't have to be the case at all.... We have an electronic braking system that simply sits in the driver's footwell and physically applies the brake pedal as necessary. This runs from its own servo assistance powered by a 12V supply. It brakes in proportion to the towing vehicle and doesn't apply in reverse so with practice reversing the whole unit is perfectly possible. The unit is called RVi2 - mine came from Towtal. When finished towing its just unclipped from the brake pedal and a couple of wiring connections and stored away with the a-frame. Absolutely no need to interfere with the cars hydraulics at all. I presume you mean you can reverse it in a straightline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilmac Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 No, not just straight line - around corners too :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 neilmac - 2015-12-14 11:08 PM No, not just straight line - around corners too :-) That's good. Not like the person who drove a big A class plus trailer onto a site near Annecy in June while I was in reception. He was a bit cross when they said they didn't have pitches big enough, but we soon realised that was because he had no idea how to reverse. After a suitable period of humiliation to repay his rudeness someone went to the other end of the site and opened a gate so he could drive straight through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 But, watch the front tyres (when visible) and note the amount of side-slip as the turn progresses. It effect, the front wheels are being skidded around. Only when the reverse ceases do the front wheels suddenly turn, presumably releasing the stress from the sideways shove. Stress on the towbar, A frame and attachment points must be considerable. Good reversing, nevertheless, but a good idea? Not something to do too often, I think. Seems very mechanically insensitive to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilmac Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Brian Kirby - 2015-12-15 12:35 PM But, watch the front tyres (when visible) and note the amount of side-slip as the turn progresses. It effect, the front wheels are being skidded around. Only when the reverse ceases do the front wheels suddenly turn, presumably releasing the stress from the sideways shove. Stress on the towbar, A frame and attachment points must be considerable. Good reversing, nevertheless, but a good idea? Not something to do too often, I think. Seems very mechanically insensitive to me. Thanks Brian :-) A couple of points though.... there is a little side scrubbing as you observed but that happens in normal driving at times - even heard your tyres squeal on certain surfaces on a roundabout? The front wheels heal over at the end of the reverse because a bit of extra lock was applied to the motorhome at that point, that leaves them pointing the right way to pull smoothly away forwards (that is being mechanically sensitive), the video demonstrates that the car is very happy to follow the motorhome away. I should have let it go back another couple of metres though as I left myself little room to to pull forward without putting a motorhome front wheel up on the pavement. That's why I've put on the video description that it's not a perfect demonstration :-) And no, it's not something to do frequently but it shows that if the need arises it CAN be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Neil's clip certainly looks far less traumatic an experience for the towed car, than this previously posted vid' .. ...presumably that would/could be down to the wheel base of the towed car?, and differing steering geometry?....etc So, when it comes to reversing, possibly just too many variables to say for definite one way or the other...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 neilmac - 2015-12-14 11:08 PM No, not just straight line - around corners too :-) Eek! I wouldn't want to abuse my car like that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 neilmac - 2015-12-15 1:13 PM....................Thanks Brian :-) A couple of points though.... there is a little side scrubbing as you observed but that happens in normal driving at times - even heard your tyres squeal on certain surfaces on a roundabout?.............. Qui? Moi? :-D I accept that reversing manoeuvres will not be frequent - though not always executed through choice and in ideal conditions! Normally, a reversing vehicle, if left to its own devices, will quickly go to full lock on one side or the other. Yours seems not to do this, unlike the earlier video clip pepe instances above, of a Smart that was really treated roughly. Don't know why, perhaps different castor angles? But, what interested me more were the stresses I could imagine acting on the tow bracket, the A frame itself, and the A frame attachments on the car. Given that the car is to some extent being reversed around its rear wheels only, with the front wheels either on full lock or remaining more or less straight ahead, the lateral force at the towball, and on the tow bracket, must surely be far higher than would be normal when reversing even a twin axle caravan? I imagine that stresses of that magnitude would not have been contemplated by the tow bracket designer, which I have to say would worry me. I would also imagine the same must go for the attachment points on the car which, even where designed by the car manufacturer for towing, would surely not be designed for one side to be in compression while the other is in tension, as must be the case during such manoeuvres. That was the context of my "mechanically insensitive" comment, which I should underline, was not aimed at the driver! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Brian, the same may well apply when turning whilst moving off, say from a side turning, a manuvour which is very common. I would speculate that it is this that has caused the structural failures which have been reported this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 I keep the steering wheel centered by the simple addition of a bungee cord, aids the natural self centering and allows controlled reversing, but have had to reverse no more often than I did when towing caravans. More to the point, I found caravans far more unstable to tow, and I did do it for 15 years or so. A car being towed on it's own wheels is far,far more stable and IMHO safer. 4 wheels good,2 wheels bad. (apologies to motorcyclists and cyclists). The Drawbar frame is bolted to the unitary 'chassis' at the front of the car, and does NOT use the existing towing eye, although that is welded to the 'chassis' also, just in front of where the drawbar frame is bolted. This is the same unitary 'Chassis' that a towbar would be fitted to at the back of the vehicle. Just read the above, When moving off from a side turning,going fowards, the car follows the towing vehicle,and the wheels naturally turn to follow, they do not 'castor', I know, I watch the car on my rearview cameras, no 'unnatural' forces are excerted. My front tyres last as long as everyone elses. Happy A-Framing ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Rayjsj - 2015-12-15 7:29 PM I keep the steering wheel centered by the simple addition of a bungee cord, aids the natural self centering and allows controlled reversing, but have had to reverse no more often than I did when towing caravans. More to the point, I found caravans far more unstable to tow, and I did do it for 15 years or so. A car being towed on it's own wheels is far,far more stable and IMHO safer. 4 wheels good,2 wheels bad. (apologies to motorcyclists and cyclists). The Drawbar frame is bolted to the unitary 'chassis' at the front of the car, and does NOT use the existing towing eye, although that is welded to the 'chassis' also, just in front of where the drawbar frame is bolted. This is the same unitary 'Chassis' that a towbar would be fitted to at the back of the vehicle. Just read the above, When moving off from a side turning,going fowards, the car follows the towing vehicle,and the wheels naturally turn to follow, they do not 'castor', I know, I watch the car on my rearview cameras, no 'unnatural' forces are excerted. My front tyres last as long as everyone elses. Happy A-Framing ! Surely it's the castor action that allows the wheels to turn the car in the direction the motorhome is going? The bungees would certainly assist the self-centring but cannot see how they would help reversing. As Brian said you are trying to pivot the car around the rear wheels. Trailers that have wheels at each corner would usually have a steerable front axle connected to the drawbar allowing controlled reversing. The scrub generated reversing an a-framed car must cause huge forces on the attachment points and the steering components. Using a jockey wheel and unhitching in the unlikely event of having to reverse is very easy and won't cause the same lack of mechanical sympathy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Sorry audiseller, but I don't get tyre scrub when reversing. Don't know why ? I assumed it was the bungee keeping the steering centered ? Confused now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 How do you know for sure Ray?...have you had someone reverse your unit, whilst you watched? because unless someone actually stands and checks or videos the "procedure", I doubt very much whether folk would be able to fully tell if "scrubbing" was taking place or not... ...Just looking again at Neil's video, I can't see how the rear camera would provide clear enough footage of what the tyres were doing..? (...and in the case of that Smart car clip that I posted, the rear camera spends most of it's time pointing away from the car...? :-S ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 If you have 4 wheels, one at each corner, it is impossible to move a vehicle in a curve without either (a) wheels that can swivel or (b) tyre scrub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilmac Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Even close coupled axles, as in a 4 wheel car trailer, will scrub its tyres when being reversed around a corner - especially when loaded. It's quite normal and really not a problem. Just cause very minimal tyre wear.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 neilmac - 2015-12-16 12:16 PM Even close coupled axles, as in a 4 wheel car trailer, will scrub its tyres when being reversed around a corner - especially when loaded. It's quite normal and really not a problem. Just cause very minimal tyre wear.... I agree, that a degree of scrubbing on something like a twin axle trailer, is fairly usual but surely, it's the severity of any scrubbing that's the issue...? The way that Smart car behaves whilst being reversed cannot be considered "quite normal".. :-S (and I would've thought that most towed-cars would be of a Smart-car/C1/Aygo type of size/wheelbase?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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