Fiat Ducato engine problem

[euroserv]

This may sound unsympathetic and i assure you that i am not but there needs to be some pragmatism here.

 

The faults that you had earlier in the life of the vehicle were supposedly repaired and no longer cause you any concern. The latest problem has occurred after the warranty has expired and while i believe that it may have been mis-diagnosed; it is a separate issue from those that preceded it.

 

Fiat; in common with all manufacturers of cars, van and trucks offer a warranty for a fixed period of time and it is entirely up to them whether they wish to offer any goodwill after the warranty period. This goodwill is often based upon your use of a franchised outlet for service and repairs during the warranty period but such criteria are completely at the discretion of the manufacturer.

 

If the agent that you have been using described themselves as 'Fiat Authorised', they may hold some responsibility for misleading you as to the 'value' of their service. Did they ever carry out any warranty work on the Fiat part of the vehicle? If they did, they must be a bona fide Fiat approved workshop. In this case, the comments from Fiat are inaccurate. Fiat do not own any dealerships in the UK and any that can carry out warranty work are 'Approved' and are the equal of any other Franchised outlet. Does their name appear in the dealer directory for the UK?

 

I would be surprised if any other owner would expect to receive free repairs after the end of their warranty period. Your experiences with this vehicle have been below par and there is bound to be a bitter taste but i don't see that your expectations are particularly realistic in this case. The talk earlier on regarding replacement engines was hardly relevant since the problem (the only problem at hand) is not related to the engine at all.

 

If this were my vehicle i would be asking Northern Commercials to look into the matter further and explore all possibilities regarding electrical faults; especially earth points before asking them to commit to guaranteeing you that if the suspected pump is replaced and the problem persists; you will not have to pay for it. They also have access to Fiat Technical and should open a case with them (TISEO) so that expert guidance is available to the workshop.

[Brian Kirby]

Jemima Puddleduck - 2016-01-11 1:11 PM

 

Nick, it's a 3 litre euro 5 180bhp engine

Worryingly for every owner of a motorhome with a Fiat base vehicle, Fiat have today said that because we have not shown goodwill towards the brand by using a Fiat Professional garage for services but instead have used only a Fiat approved motorhome dealership, then they are withdrawing their goodwill towards us and that they have fixed all previous faults only because they were obliged to do so under warranty. ................

With my apologies, but I'm now confused! :-) Could you unpack the above statement a bit, please? What is a Fiat approved motorhome dealership? What did they do to your van?

 

I understand that you used Northern Commercials for all warranty work, and they are definitely Fiat Professional authorised repairers. Who is this other firm who claim to be "a Fiat approved motorhome dealership"? It seems to me that they may be making something of a false claim if they are not approved in some way by Fiat. If they have carried out servicing, but are in fact just an independent dealership with no Fiat trained mechanics in their workshop, it is a bit difficult to understand what level of approval Fiat can have given them.

 

However, strictly, Fiat are entitled to fall back on the wording of their warranty. As Nick says, as this further defect appears to have arisen outside the warranty period, and does not seem to relate to any of the earlier defects, they have no special obligation to repair under the warranty. I also agree that your description of the state of the dashboard lights seems difficult to reconcile with the ABS pump itself, and more likely to have been caused by water getting into the electrics, or by some other electrical defect such as a bad earth path.

 

It seems your van gets very little use (4,000 miles in just over two years), so presumably spends longish periods standing. It has been very wet recently, and the Fiat bonnet is not renowned for its waterproof qualities. It therefore seems at least reasonable to investigate for wiring or earthing defects relating to water penetration of corrosion.

 

You may also have damaged your goodwill as far as Fiat is concerned by telling them that you have taken legal advice. Most firms pull up the drawbridge and put on their armour if they think they may be attacked. They are very unlikely to be intimidated by legal threats, what ground could you have for suing them? Cases brought for failure to comply with warranty conditions have only fairly recently become possible under consumer legislation. From what I read at the time it seemed they would be very difficult to pursue as the warranty is in effect some kind of contractual promise, but from someone with whom you have no actual contract. But, Fiat would doubtless claim in their defence, as seems to be the case, that they have met their warranty obligations.

 

BTW, have you checked regarding the dealer's third year warranty, which should attach to vehicles sold in UK? If their is not one, and Fiat have put the shutters up, I think you are probably on your own. I'd talk to Northern Commercials, as Nick advises, and possibly print off and show them his post re electrics before they go on any more wild goose chases.

[Tracker]

Brian Kirby - 2016-01-11 6:46 PM

I'd talk to Northern Commercials, as Nick advises, and possibly print off and show them his post re electrics before they go on any more wild goose chases.

 

May I add -

 

wild goose chases at YOUR expense not their's so it might pay to be very careful what you agree to let them do.

 

This is far from the only tale of woe about inept dealers passing the buck and manfacturers who have no intetest in supporting their customers but every interest in saving a few quid from their warranty bill.

 

Do they really think that they are saving money in the long run when a bit of kindness and generosity towards a long suffering customer would go a long long way to starting to rebuild their tarnished image with everyone else.

 

Not a lot of choice with a van but there are several makers whose cars I would never buy under any circumstances due to their well known abysmal attitudes and Fiat is right at the top of said list.

 

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Jemima. Nick of Euroserv knows far more than me, however I believe that this is more than just a Warranty claim, I would suggest there may be negligence on the part of Northern Commercials?

If the delivery was delayed because they found a severe Oil leak, it must have been pretty severe to delay collection. This is exceptionally unusual.

 

To then have, at a later date, Oil in the Coolant is also highly unusual.

 

For the Turbo to then fail so prematurely is also highly unusual.

This possibly failed from damaged Bearings as a result of contaminated Oil by the coolant, maybe?

 

The mechanics here have been talking about this on and off the last day or two and can't think of any other explanation that links all three. We think that the Oil/water heat exchanger was somehow damaged and started leaking Oil.

 

Supposing, they bodged the repair and Oil/Coolant mixed? If the poor repair was not discovered until the first service, significant damage might have been done, hence the failed Turbo. We think the Turbo failed because it's bearings are more likely to show damage first when the Oil is anything but perfect because of the speeds/loadings involved inside a Turbo.

 

We may be completely off the mark, but if we are right, it is likely that the engine bearing surfaces have suffered similar deterioration as the turbo. Total Engine failure may be around the corner and that can be a £5,000 + bill.

 

If this supposition is correct, this 'damage' to the engine is the fault of the Fiat Dealer, and is their issue to put right, as are any subsequent failures that fall out of that.

 

As Nick states, the ABS pump failure is a highly unlikely event. A wiring fault is far more plausible. Possibly caused by the Fiat Dealer when they carried out all the other work, which has been unbelievably extensive for a vehicle with so few miles.

 

I would love to know why the 'Fuel Injection' system was replaced at little more than delivery mileage as that alone is an incredibly, exceptional event.

That alone indicates something very wrong with either the vehicle or the Fiat Dealer.

 

 

There are so many highly unusual failures, there has got be either a common denominator or an exceedingly poor vehicle.

 

 

This is all pure conjecture and total guesswork, which is why we advocate a Tech Specialist report who can go through all the evidence, examine the vehicle and establish what is what.

 

You have a right to all the data currently held by Fiat on this case, to know EXACTLY what was done to fix the Oil leak and where it was from. EXACTLY why the turbo failed, etc.

Establish exactly what the ABS fault is. This may ultimately provide more evidence of poor workmanship?

You just need to ask in writing.

 

With that full evidence and an assessment of the vehicle I would hope that you might be able to establish that Northern Commercials/Fiat are liable.

They should fix everything because of negligence on their part, it's probably not a warranty claim.

 

 

Regardless of who did what, this is a vehicle with an exceptional string of exceptional failures, I think Fiats attitude stinks.

If Fiat believe these are normal failures in a Base vehicle then Heaven help all who have one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Thank you all for your feedback. Just to clarify one point - although Northern Commercials have carried out all warranty work since the first service when oil was found in the coolant, the first initial oil leak found on leaving Premier's showroom was dealt with by a Fiat Professional garage in West Sussex. Northern Commercials, along with Premier and the local motorhome dealer who have carried out the two annual services (Richard Baldwin Motorhomes), have been nothing but helpful. Incidentally, RBM are the 'Fiat authorised' dealership who have carried out the two annual services. On buying the vehicle from a location 300 miles away from our home we were assured that RBM were able to conduct the services because they are an approved Autotrail dealer and service centre and all Autotrails are exclusively Ducato-based. Had we ever been informed that the servicing should be done by Fiat Professional we would have willingly complied. In fact our compliance with 'rules' is such that, as has been pointed out here, we even paid for a service that we now learn wasn't scheduled!

We're well aware of our pygmy status in the world of multinationals such as Fiat and far from threatening legal action, we have made one final plea to Fiat asking them to please review our case and making it clear that we have NO wish to involve solicitors but just want our van fixed and running reliably. Premier and Richard Baldwin have sent supporting emails, all in the hope that as it's only nine weeks since the vehicle was last with Northern Commercials for warranty work, they may show a generosity of spirit in recognition of our long-sufferance with this engine. We've also spoken to an independent tech specialist who was very helpful but we're aware that once we involve him this is going to be a costly business and will force us to take the legal route.

All we want is a van that works *wails*

[Brian Kirby]

Jemima Puddleduck - 2016-01-12 9:45 AM.................... Incidentally, RBM are the 'Fiat authorised' dealership who have carried out the two annual services. On buying the vehicle from a location 300 miles away from our home we were assured that RBM were able to conduct the services because they are an approved Autotrail dealer and service centre and all Autotrails are exclusively Ducato-based. Had we ever been informed that the servicing should be done by Fiat Professional we would have willingly complied.........................

I note RBM make no such actual claim on their website. I just wonder if they have anyone who is Fiat trained on their staff to allow them to make that claim, which I assume was verbal. However, so far as servicing is concerned, legally Fiat has no right to require you to use their authorised service centres. Providing, as I said before, the job is done according to Fiat's spec, that is all that is required. Their point seems to be that this is a new defect that has arisen just outside the warranty period, so it is a matter of whether they feel they wish to undertake the work at their expense or not. They seem to be saying that had you had the servicing carried out by a Fiat authorised service centre they would have taken on the work under warranty (or at least at reduced cost), but as you didn't, they won't. That seems a bit unwise of them to me, as the implication is that they are seeking to "punish" you for having exercised your legal rights. Not sure how that thought would go down, but it might be worth putting to them very subtly in conversation.

 

We're well aware of our pygmy status in the world of multinationals such as Fiat and far from threatening legal action, we have made one final plea to Fiat asking them to please review our case and making it clear that we have NO wish to involve solicitors but just want our van fixed and running reliably. Premier and Richard Baldwin have sent supporting emails, all in the hope that as it's only nine weeks since the vehicle was last with Northern Commercials for warranty work, they may show a generosity of spirit in recognition of our long-sufferance with this engine. ....................

Sorry about the last bit of my post, it was written somewhat in haste and was not the most subtle of wording! I think you are wise to try to negotiate some sort of settlement with Fiat. They do seem rather anxious to get your vehicle off their warranty claims list. While it may have cost them a lot under warranty to date, it was Fiat who made it! Insofar as all servicing requirements seem to have been complied with, and more, that none of the defects to date seem to have the slightest relationship to servicing, that the vehicle has covered very few miles, and that it is only two years old, it seems to me reasonable that they should rectify what has gone wrong. I hope they will relent and do so.