Leisure Batteries for Beginners

[Dibsy]

I'm after some advice about leisure batteries; please bear in mind that I'm an absolute beginner here and am trying to educate myself into the world of motorhomes!

 

I've managed to find information online (http://www.leisurebatteries.net/ and http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/technicalhelp/power/a-guide-to-leisure-batteries/) and think I understand how they are built and work in a basic sense.

 

What I can't really find any information about is the practical stuff, for example;

 

1) If I hook-up how long should the battery take to charge?

2) Will it become fully charged from hookup (and should I really expect it to ever be fully charged)? And will it only charge when the control panel is switched on?

3) Will it become fully charged when driving?

4) How long should I expect it to last? I realise this is a how long is a piece of string question but with quite low usage (LED lights, no TV, charging phones, water pump etc).

5) Our motorhome is not new and therefore the battery is not new - how can I check that the battery is working well?

 

We have a Pilote Atlantis A5. I'm not sure what type of battery it is - I'm going to have a look on Wednesday when I go and sort a few motorhome things out.

 

What else do I need to know?

 

Thanks for your replies to what probably seem like really basic questions!

 

Dibsy

[Tracker]

Dibsy - 2016-01-04 8:04 PM

 

I'm after some advice about leisure batteries; please bear in mind that I'm an absolute beginner here and am trying to educate myself into the world of motorhomes!

 

I've managed to find information online (http://www.leisurebatteries.net/ and http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/technicalhelp/power/a-guide-to-leisure-batteries/) and think I understand how they are built and work in a basic sense.

 

What I can't really find any information about is the practical stuff, for example;

 

1) If I hook-up how long should the battery take to charge?

2) Will it become fully charged from hookup (and should I really expect it to ever be fully charged)? And will it only charge when the control panel is switched on?

3) Will it become fully charged when driving?

4) How long should I expect it to last? I realise this is a how long is a piece of string question but with quite low usage (LED lights, no TV, charging phones, water pump etc).

5) Our motorhome is not new and therefore the battery is not new - how can I check that the battery is working well?

 

We have a Pilote Atlantis A5. I'm not sure what type of battery it is - I'm going to have a look on Wednesday when I go and sort a few motorhome things out.

 

What else do I need to know?

 

Thanks for your replies to what probably seem like really basic questions!

 

Dibsy

 

Sorry for me the link does not work?

 

1 - depends on how flat it is to start with.

 

2 - probably not, probably not, and the handbook should tell you.

 

3 - yes - eventually but again depending on how flat it is to strat with and how far you drive.

 

4 - probably about 4 months longer than the warranty!

 

5 - take it off the van and bench charge it with a decent Ctek charger overnight or until the lights on the charger tell you it is fully charged. Then check the voltage after say an hour, then 24 hours, then another 48 hours and if it holds at about 12.7 volts you have a good 'un and if it drops to under 12.5 volts it is iffy, any less and it is not a lot of good. However if you only ever camp on sites with ehu that will not matter.

 

If you tell us what sort of use you expect to give your van there are plenty of options for solutions.

 

This topic comes up regularly and using the serch facility for 'batteries' or 'leisure batteries' will bring up lots of bed time reading for you, like this one -

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/search/query.asp?action=search&searchforumid=all&keywords=batteries&author=&days=31&Submit=Search

[colin]

1) If we asume you have driven a couple of hours to a campsite the battery will be fully charged, so hooking up will just maintain it at max.

2) It should become fully charged even if you haven't driven enough for the alternator to have charged it, on ours there is no need to switch anything on to charge the battery, not sure on yours.

3) Yes

4) This depends on the battery and your usage, it can be calcuted, but you will find out with use. LED lights take very little, same applies to pump, and phones, if you are using heater this will take some depending on which one you have.

5) You can do tests with a known load to determine capacity.

[aandncaravan]

In answer to point 3, probably not.

We get a number of people who seem to believe that driving the van for an hour or two will recharge the battery after an overnight stop.

But if the 100Ah battery has dropped to 50% discharge, at an Alternators typical 10 - 15amp charge rate, it can take 3 to 5 hours to fully recharge depending on the battery quality and age.

If there are 2 x 100Ah batteries both down to 50% then you can pretty much double the charge time, 5 - 9 hours driving.

 

You will read comments from people who 'charged the battery back up by idling the engine for an hour', when it is likely they only put about 10Ah into the battery. On a 200Ah battery bank that is down to 50% charge, it is not going to make much impression. It will look like it has, initially, but the voltage will drop like a stone down a Well.

 

It is such a complex subject with different technology batteries regularly breaking the rules that were set only a few years before.

 

The charger units are also very different between one Motorhome and another.

 

Some Sargent chargers have a fixed 13.8v and 10amp output, yet the Sargent EC328 has an internal charger that can operate in 'offline' mode and charge the battery at up to 18v and 25amps to 'supercharge' it.

The unit is very, very sophisticated. If it detects the battery is low and 240v is connected it 'disconnects' the battery from the Motorhome (connects into it's place a little 12v power supply to keep things going) and superchargers the battery in a safe way that is temperature monitored. That is why nothing on an EC325 or EC328 equipped Motorhome should ever be connected direct to the battery, unless it can stand 18v.

 

 

So to almost any question you ask, the response will probably be 'depends'.

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

These are the information-sources Dibsy mentions in the original posting

 

http://www.leisurebatteries.net

 

http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/technicalhelp/power/a-guide-to-leisure-batteries/

[Dibsy]

Thanks for all your replies.

 

It's a complicated thing I think!

 

 

[Dave C]

The link in the first post had a close bracket ) at the end of it which is why it wouldn't work.

 

Will all posters check that their links actually work - save a lot of hassle!

 

 

Dave

 

[Derek Uzzell]

The two links Dibsy provided in the original posting were enclosed in brackets. The opening bracket caused the 1st link to fail to be recognised as such and (as you rightly say) the closing bracket impacted on the 2nd link.

 

Although it’s a bit of a pain, before clicking on “SUBMIT” it’s makes good sense to use the “PREVIEW” feature (particularly when links have been provided) to check that everything works as expected.

[Brian Kirby]

Or, if you want to enclose a link in brackets, just put a space between the bracket and the hypertext at both ends, like this: ( http://www.leisurebatteries.net/ and http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/technicalhelp/power/a-guide-to-leisure-batteries/ )

The links will then work.

[Brian Kirby]

Dibsy - 2016-01-04 8:04 PM.............................

1) If I hook-up how long should the battery take to charge?

2) Will it become fully charged from hookup (and should I really expect it to ever be fully charged)? And will it only charge when the control panel is switched on?

3) Will it become fully charged when driving?

4) How long should I expect it to last? I realise this is a how long is a piece of string question but with quite low usage (LED lights, no TV, charging phones, water pump etc).

5) Our motorhome is not new and therefore the battery is not new - how can I check that the battery is working well?...............................Dibsy

Nothing wrong with basic questions!

Others have answered at length, but very simply:

1) Assume overnight, but if heavily discharged, possibly longer.

2) a) it will charge as fully as the charger unit allows, which will probably be slightly less that the alternator will, eventually, achieve. Either must be considered as fully charged for all practical purposes. b) as above may depend on the charger and panel in your van. Some are switchable between starter and habitation batteries, some charge hab battery only, some automatically charge both, but use different charge criteria.

3) As said above, eventually yes, but if heavily discharged it may take hours of driving to achieve this. However, if left on mains to charge overnight, and nominally full when you depart, the alternator will generally begin to raise the charge a bit more once it has replenished the starter battery.

4) If you know the type, condition, and capacity of the battery, you can calculate how long it will last without charge if you note the amperages of everything you use, and multiply each by the number of hours you would expect to use each per day. Then, add them together to give your total consumption per 24 hours in Amp hours (Ah). If you assume the battery condition is good, and it is, say, a genuine (another caveat here!) 80Ah capacity, you should be able to safely take it down by 60%, or about 65Ah. So, divide the consumption figure you just calculated into 65, and you will get roughly the number of days the battery should last without being damaged.

5) You'll need a decent multimeter. First fully charge it on the mains charger. Disconnect the mains and leave it to stand for about 4 hours, and then check the voltage. It should show 12.8 Volts or more. Then, turn on enough lights etc to give a load of about 5A. Then check the batter voltage about once per hour to see how quickly it falls. See how long it takes to fall to 12.3 Volts, which is about half empty. Whatever its stated nominal capacity, the test will tell you its actual capacity if you multiply the number of hours from 12.8 Volts to 12.3 Volts by two. If the result is substantially less that the nominal capacity of the battery it is failing. If the result is more than the nominal capacity of the battery you screwed-up somewhere! :-D (I'm happily open to correction on the above, but believe it should give a reasonable working indication).

[Brian Kirby]

Apologies, just realised the above should read "5) You'll need a decent multimeter. First fully charge the batterry on the mains charger." Ambiguity rules! :-)

[Dibsy]

Sorry about the links - I didn't mean to cause a problem.

[Dibsy]

Brian Kirby - 2016-01-05 1:22 PM

 

Dibsy - 2016-01-04 8:04 PM.............................

1) If I hook-up how long should the battery take to charge?

2) Will it become fully charged from hookup (and should I really expect it to ever be fully charged)? And will it only charge when the control panel is switched on?

3) Will it become fully charged when driving?

4) How long should I expect it to last? I realise this is a how long is a piece of string question but with quite low usage (LED lights, no TV, charging phones, water pump etc).

5) Our motorhome is not new and therefore the battery is not new - how can I check that the battery is working well?...............................Dibsy

Nothing wrong with basic questions!

Others have answered at length, but very simply:

1) Assume overnight, but if heavily discharged, possibly longer.

2) a) it will charge as fully as the charger unit allows, which will probably be slightly less that the alternator will, eventually, achieve. Either must be considered as fully charged for all practical purposes. b) as above may depend on the charger and panel in your van. Some are switchable between starter and habitation batteries, some charge hab battery only, some automatically charge both, but use different charge criteria.

3) As said above, eventually yes, but if heavily discharged it may take hours of driving to achieve this. However, if left on mains to charge overnight, and nominally full when you depart, the alternator will generally begin to raise the charge a bit more once it has replenished the starter battery.

4) If you know the type, condition, and capacity of the battery, you can calculate how long it will last without charge if you note the amperages of everything you use, and multiply each by the number of hours you would expect to use each per day. Then, add them together to give your total consumption per 24 hours in Amp hours (Ah). If you assume the battery condition is good, and it is, say, a genuine (another caveat here!) 80Ah capacity, you should be able to safely take it down by 60%, or about 65Ah. So, divide the consumption figure you just calculated into 65, and you will get roughly the number of days the battery should last without being damaged.

5) You'll need a decent multimeter. First fully charge it on the mains charger. Disconnect the mains and leave it to stand for about 4 hours, and then check the voltage. It should show 12.8 Volts or more. Then, turn on enough lights etc to give a load of about 5A. Then check the batter voltage about once per hour to see how quickly it falls. See how long it takes to fall to 12.3 Volts, which is about half empty. Whatever its stated nominal capacity, the test will tell you its actual capacity if you multiply the number of hours from 12.8 Volts to 12.3 Volts by two. If the result is substantially less that the nominal capacity of the battery it is failing. If the result is more than the nominal capacity of the battery you screwed-up somewhere! :-D (I'm happily open to correction on the above, but believe it should give a reasonable working indication).

 

Thank you once again for your detailed reply.

[Brian Kirby]

Dibsy - 2016-01-06 7:18 AM

 

Sorry about the links - I didn't mean to cause a problem.

You didn't, and we've all made the same mistake - which is why we now know how to avoid it. :-)

[Brian Kirby]

Dibsy - 2016-01-06 7:18 AM

 

Sorry about the links - I didn't mean to cause a problem.

You didn't, and we've all made the same mistake - which is why we now know how to avoid it. :-)

[Dibsy]

So, I charged the battery via hook-up for 24 hours. When I first took it off hook-up the on board display showed 12.8v. The battery has a capacity of 85Ah.

 

Four hours later I have tested it using a multimeter and it shows 12.3-12.4v

 

I've turned some things on and will test again in 1 hour but am I right in thinking that if the battery is initially showing only 12-3-12.4v it needs replacing?

 

Thanks again!

[Brambles]

I would have expected over 13 volts when 1st disconnected settling slowly to 12.8 volts over an hour or two. If there is anything drawing standby current it could settle in under 15 mins.

After 24 hours I would not expect to see a significant drop... should be over 12.7 volts.

 

Assuming your volts display is accurate looks like battery is duff but best to check battery directly with a voltmeter to confirm voltages. If the display can select engine battery and it shoes 12.7 then you can be fairly sure it is correct.

 

 

[Dibsy]

Me again. An hour later with two 10 watt lights on the voltage of the battery has dropped to 12.03 (tested with a multimeter). Not sounding too promising I don't think!

 

I guess I need a new one...

 

 

[Brambles]

Yes.

 

next question.....

 

answer Varta LFD 75 ...Tayna Batteries or Battery megastore have good prices on Varta.

However maybe worthwhile to now look at what your power consumption might be and if worth going for higher capacity or not.

Will you always be using hook up so battery is just a buffer.

Will you have basic needs such as just lights, water pump etc?

Do you have a diesel heater which draws a lot of battery power on start up?

Will you be wild camping with no hook up and want to power a TV etc.

 

Rushing out just now, so will take a peek back here later.... if i remember.

 

 

[Dibsy]

Thanks for your reply. You must be a mind reader! (lol)

 

I think our usage will be mixed - some trips relying on the leisure battery and some trips will have hookup.

 

Our needs will be fairly basic - lights, water pump, charging phones and other devices. We've no TV and no diesel heater.

 

We will be travelling year round.

 

We are thinking of getting a solar panel to make our off hookup trips easier (and I guess that will take away the need to take the battery out and charge it periodically).

 

Thanks again...

 

 

[Brambles]

Huh! did not go far as raining and 3 degrees outside. Too cold for a Sunday afternoon walk.

 

In the summer a small battery wil do you fine, but in winter with a gas heater fan running if you do not have hook up you il benefit from slightly higher capacity. I manage fine with 80Ah but only ever keep the heater fan on low speed and sometimes not at all as convection tales care of main living space. Just fan on for toilet. If really wintery I use campsites and hookup and 80Ah does me fine. Can go 3 or 4 night in the summer wild camping as no TV.

Anyway, you also need to see what will fit in allocated battery space. If 90/100 Ah will fit its worth while fir teh small extra expense as also means less wear on the battery when you do discharge it.

 

You can top up and fully charge while connected in vehicle, you do not need to remove. With a solar panel and controller this should take care of making sure you are kept charged up. I shal let you work battery capacity out.

As to batteries available. Budget branded batteries are not really worth looking at unless it is purely as a buffer battery as I call it for coffee stops and you mostly have hook up.

Next up the ladder at an economic cost is Varta LFD series leisure batteries. To give a comparison The budget batteries will give about 75 to 100 cycles. Varta LFD will give about 150 to 200 cycles so in effect twice as good. These are maintenance free.

Next up the tech spec for cycles are the Banner batteries (Energy Bull) . They are more expensive but have a cycle life of around 350 to 400 in comparison so nearly twice as good again so are even better value...BUT...they require periodic topping up with water and have a higher self discharge rate. Forget and water gets low and you will reduce life of battery dramatically and have wasted spending more money.

Now for the hard user who discharges to 50% (or more, regularly) there are AGM and gel batteries. A lot more money, but technically a lot more robust when abused with deep cycling.

For example with a Gel you can discharge to 80% dod instead of 50% and get 400 cycles in comparison. At 50% dod you should get over 800 cycles.

 

Exide also make good Leisure batteries with their range of dual purpose and only a bit more expensive than the vartas. My experience of Exide engine batteries are they are excellent , they also have the best Gel batteries so can only assume their dual purpose leisure range are good as well and can be compared to the Varta range. I don't think they have the same rated cycle life, but they probably are better in some other respects. It is all swings and roundabouts.

Varta LFD's are not the ideal battery but neither are Banner. AGM and Gel Types also have downsides as well, but also have advantages, one down side being cost.

 

Not sure of I am making much sense here. Just havering on a roll but hopefully food for thought.

At the end of the day I would probably fit a 70 or 90 Ah Varta and see how it goes. Then if necessary fit an extra battery.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dibsy]

Thank you for all the information; it's very useful.

 

Dibsy

[Derek Uzzell]

Dibsy owns a 2003 Pilote Atlantis A5 motorhome.

 

I don’t know where Pilote would have installed the leisure-battery in Dibsy’s vehicle or what type of battery is currently fitted, but if the present battery is located within the vehicle’s living-space (eg. under a cab-seat or within an ‘unsealed’ storage locker) and the replacement battery is of a type that can be vented, then it would be best practice to fit a vent-tube to the new battery (or to transfer over an existing vent-tube if there is one).

 

Details (including length, width and height data) of the Varta LFD range can be found here:

 

http://www.varta-batteries.co.uk/varta-leisure.html

 

As Brambles has said, Varta LFD batteries are ‘maintenance free’ (ie. their electrolyte-level cannot be topped up) but their design does allow a standard automotive-battery vent-tube to be fitted to them.

[Dibsy]

You are right, it is a 2003 Pilote Atlantis A5.

 

The leisure battery is in it's own compartment below the side bench (under the side bench can be used for storage and in the base is a well with a lid for the battery).

 

I can't remember the make of the current battery (and the MH is back in storage now) but it was 85Ah. I am planning to get the largest capacity battery I can fit in the compartment (which isn't very big!).

 

Thanks for the link to the battery sizes and the information about vent tubes.

 

Dibsy