Will H Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 I'm well know to be anti Fiat, but I do seem to be constantly reading of a Fiat being faulty. Is this because they appear to produce so many that their percentage of faults is small ? I would only ever buy Mercedes or VW engine vehicles so " WHAT IS" the Fiat attraction ? Why are the public so gullible ? If I buy a product I expect it to work all the time, until I decide to bin it. Will PS one for euroserve perhaps ?
Guest pelmetman Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Blimey Will 8-)...........you like to live dangerously :D ..........
Will H Posted January 23, 2016 Author Posted January 23, 2016 I do think its a fair comment. Perhaps buyers have little choice. Although the likes of Brian, Derek and Lenny seem to sail along quite OK. Its possible that many don't recognise a problem until it happens. Euroserve has a workshop that services all the potential problems before well before they arise so I can understand his buying them but for the majority of new users its a jungle. I can only make my comments based on my own judgement and past years of using vans but this is the 21st century where computerised techniques solve everything from the simplest bolt to a complete unit. And still they fail !
Mike88 Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Will H - 2016-01-23 12:26 PM I would only ever buy Mercedes or VW engine vehicles so " WHAT IS" the Fiat attraction ? Why are the public so gullible ? If I buy a product I expect it to work all the time, until I decide to bin it. Will PS one for euroserve perhaps ? In my opinion your statements are inaccurate on several levels. I agree that on first sight it would appear that Fiat has more than its fair share of problems but they also have the vast majority of base vehicles used in motorhome production. Of all the faults mentioned on this forum hardly any relate to the engine of a Fiat motorhome so your decision to buy only VW or Mercedes engined vehicles is at odds with your conclusion. I cannot speak for Mercedes as I have not owned one. However, I own an Audi (part of the VW group) and I can tell you from personal experience that the car is verging on a heap of junk. Problems so far in 9000 miles include unresolved central locking issues, fuel flap failing to open and more rattles than my motorhome. So far the vehicle has been off the road for 9 days in 12 months. Contrast that to my Fiat based motorhome which has been totally reliable and fault free for the last 6 years. My conclusion therefore is very different from yours. You state you
Tracker Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Most of us buy a Fiat/Peugeot 'Sevel' based motorhome because there is no alternative on the layout we prefer not because we love 'em! Apart from one Ducato that had a succession of EGR issues all my others in recent years have been Boxers and have generally been pretty good. I have also found Peugeot dealers in general to be OK too. If you want proper reliability and good customer service buy a Japanese car, although the Koreans seem to be catching them up in that regard. We've had 4 Toyotas, 3 Hondas and 2 Lexus in recentyears some of which were high mileage used and not one fault in over 10 years and well over 100,000 miles. We did have a fault with a tailgate lock on a used RAV that we were unaware of as it seemed to work OK but which the dealer picked up when servicing the car. They phoned us to advise, asked us to hang on to their loan car overnight, then phoned us mid morning to say they had replaced the lock free of charge even though the car was just out of warranty. Can't see Fiat or VW or BMW doing that! If you want real bad maker arrogance and attitude look no further than Germany which is why I will not be buying any German group car anytime soon. That said, given the complexity of modern cars, and the urge to make them as cheaply as possible the miracle is not that they go wrong but that they ever work at all and looking back not so many years far less complex vehicles had appalling reliablity issues.
Muswell Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Well the automatic box on my VW T4 failed 500 miles from new and had to be replaced, if I was cross about this it was nothing to how I felt after dealing with Volswagen Care! I had problems with the ABS which took a lot of sorting out and problems with engine management sensors. And the paintwork had runs near the hinges on the roof. My conclusion is that the VW reputation is based on spin, reinforced by the way they weren't even competent at fiddling the emissions tests.
Dave225 Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 You may be answering some of your own questions. Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen all basically produce the same vehicle which is used as the base for the vast majority of motorhomes. The main reason for that is the shape which has flatter sides than the rivals so allowing a better interior and the all important option of a bed crosswise in van conversions. Ford are trying to make inroads but again the body shape is more condusive for coachbuilt styles. Also Ford have no automatic version as yet, which will dissuade a goodly number of buyers of more elderly vintage. Just watch how fast Comfortmatic models disappear from the 2nd hand market. As the Fiat Confortmatic is also being used by a large number of fleet van buyers for reasons of cost efficiency , there is obviously a market there. The other thing is that people usually only write to complain, they rarely write to say how good their vehicle has been, so all you see are the ones with faults. As a percentage of total output I would suggest that the Sevel vehicle is no better or worse than its rivals. That of course is no comfort if you happen to be the owner of the 'lemon'. You mention Mercedes but I have read that they do not galvanise their products so rust is an issue. The days of them being built like the proverbial brickhouse are probably passed. Looking at some of the US Forums seems to indicate a large number of unhappy owners as well. Mercedes also has a price premium which may be just too much for many buyers. Some of the main complaints against Fiat such as the 'judder' issue, faults with early Comfortmatics, water ingress to the engine compartment have been addressed over the years as each upgrade has been introduced so again I feel you have to look at the complaints being written, in a context of time and total production. As for support from the manufacturer again this needs to be looked at in context. Renault for example are not reknowned for customer service for example. Fiat at least have made efforts by providing a support section purely for camper owners, whether it works or not is another issue. As for VW, well their problems have been well documented recently and also they tend to concentrate on a certain segment of the motorhome market so in terms of total output, are a long way behind the Fiat group. All in it is a matter of 'horses for courses'. By the way in my lifetime I have owned both Mercedes, Ford as well as currently Fiat, so could advise complaints about all of them at times.
rupert123 Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 This is a brave post as VW cannot even get a vehicle through standard emission tests without bodge jobs, are you having a laugh?
tonyg3nwl Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Hi, could I remind readers the Fiat dont MAKE the vehicles you refer to, they only ASSEMBLE THE BITS, a lot of which are made by numerous subcontractors, and "delivered just in time". Cableforms for example are one of the sub contracted item which seem to be frequently a troublesome area, and the wires in them, the connector components in them, will almost certainly have been made by yet other subcontractors. carrying this to the logical extension, it is a wonder that the resultant vehicle with all the relevant designers, sub manufacturers etc and complexity required by the burocrats to meet modern regulations, ever gets going at all. I wonder how the percentage fault rates compare with mercedes, ford and japan originated similar vehicles. personally, I think think that because Fiat bases are most common then the moaners should realise that inevitably, they will have the most Faults tonyg3nwl
Tracker Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 tonyg3nwl - 2016-01-23 3:49 PM Hi, could I remind readers the Fiat dont MAKE the vehicles you refer to, they only ASSEMBLE THE BITS, a lot of which are made by numerous subcontractors The same is true of pretty much all vehicle makers these days. The primary differences in quality being the specifications as decreed by the makers to which these parts are made and the cost price that is, or is not, set to ensure either reliability or cheapness - as I doubt you can have both. I would still buy a Fiat in preference to a VW these days but if I could have the choice I would buy a Toyota base vehicle!!
dawki Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 I have a Merc and i love it 5 years of trouble free ownership and not a penny spent on it other than routine servicing i don't think thats particularly amazing, thats the way it should be whats my view on Fiat's i drove a couple before i brought the Merc and didn't really like them All makes of van have issues but i would not buy a Sevel van because of the nature of some of their problems if they can't fit a earth strap that works or they are unable to get water to run of the vehicle without going into the engine REALLY !
artheytrate Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 We've had a 2008 Fiat based motorhome for 3 years, A 2011 Ford based for 3 years, And now a 2014 Peugeot based for 2 years. All have been great motorhomes and never had any trouble with the base vehicles. John.
peterjl Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 My first two m/ homes on a ford base, they both experienced problems, indeed the second one, purchased new, had to go back 6 times in first 10,000 miles cos of electrical problems. Now on third Fiat, had two problem on first vehicle after 20,000 miles, which was promptly fixed. The second had no problems and completed 25,000 miles in three years. Now on third, had one occasion when a sensor showed a fault but this has not replicated, completed 6000 miles in first year. So for me Fiat has been more reliable than my previous fords. I also have to say I like the driving experience of fiat. So for me I do recognise the description in the first post. On average we cover 9000 miles a year I reckon I am likely to have a problem at some stage with any vehicle regardless of manufacturer. So base vehicle make is not a major consideration. Peter
Will H Posted January 23, 2016 Author Posted January 23, 2016 I made the mistake of referring to 'engine' when I should have said Fiat badged M/H's which makes a vast difference, I agree with all the comments made. Regarding the VW I never go by or accept factory figures, I choose by how I fit into it and what can I do with it, plus lots of research.. But ... there do seem to be a lot of disgruntled people out there who drive Fiat badged M.H's. I presume the answer is that there never will be one. Will
whiskers Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 I have had Fiat/Citroen based motorcaravans since 1999. In that time they have been absolutely reliable. I did have a 2 year old VW for a short while which had several mechanical problems, I also found the VW suspension was too soft.
starvin marvin Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 My experience of Fiat is generally good engines, gearboxes that require watching closely and cheap nasty electrical components plus dodgy ancillary bits. I've had stuff fail on a Fiat that have never broken on other vehicles. If I was using one commercially I think the "down" times would simply be too much. Finally FIAT means "F%@#king Italian Always Trouble, 'nuff said.
John Allen Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Totally agree with you Tracker. Moved away from SEAT and VW years ago and have Toyota's ever since. Never had a problem. Bought brand new Fiat based Autotrail last June and have alraedy had new ignition switch and instrument panel fitted. Getting nervous about travelling long distance in it across France. I would have got in my Landcruiser and driven across the world without a\ second thought about reliability.
Campfos Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 My first Motorhome home was based on a Mercedes with the auto box which was a very good drive not so good in crosswinds and passing trucks. Even after fitting air assist rear suspension this did improve things. And I was happy with it but the layout proved to be wrong after using it with a big double bed over the garage in the back, when you reach a certain age climbing over each other to go to the toilet and climbing up a ladder to get into bed. ( I read somewhere that it takes you three Motorhomes before you find the right one) So we decided to get get a Motorhome with twin single beds over the garage now I never found one of these based on a Merc chassis. So we bought a Sunlight T66 which as a layout is perfect for our needs has a garage and is the right length to fit our driveway. This is based on a Fiat Ducato Chassis the drive is not as good as the Merc but the road holding is a lot better so I found out. When I picked the Van up drove it about 80 miles and the comfortmatic Gearbox stopped changing gear called Fiat assist and it was not on there system with it being new but as I had the V5 with me I used the chassis number. This allowed them to find it and send the RAC man. He turned up plugged in the laptop found three fault codes no idea what they were but he cleared them and went for a test drive all well. So when I arrived home it went to the local Fiat professional place they found a some wiring fault and it's been ok since, done about 6,000 mile no further problems. So based on my own experience the Merc was a better drive with the auto box but the Fiat much better road holding but I don't rate the Fiat comfortmatic gearbox.
daviddwight Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Over the last 15 years we have had 4 Motorhomes 3 from new they have all been Fiat based, no problems with either of them, other than the present one not being able to read the Speedo in dull conditions. When there were the problems with the gear box we never had and issue with ours. We both drove Fiat/Citroen Mini busses at work over a period of 14 years and never had problems with those either. You either like them or loath them, tell me any vehicle that you never have problems with?
Geeco Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 Good one Wil we can always relie on you for activating the chattering class with your "in your face" provocative comments. This thread has certainly generated some interest and that can only be good. Maybe I am shallow but I purchased my MH for layout,equipment and looks. Yes looks was a serious consideration. The Fiat cab seems, IMHO to blend in nicely with most C class habitation areas. I also found that when looking at the alternative cab/ chassis the Fiat offered the least amount of movement when moving around inside the vehicle, no doubt due to the wider track of the Fiat in comparison to the rear wheel drive options. This is my first MH and after 12 months and 24,000 kms I can report total reliability. Time will tell if that status continues. If I was to summarise I would say the Fiat is more that adequate for the roll. Some functions like the AMT are average while others like the seats are nine out of ten according to my back after a 500km relocation. As Rich said If you want reliability then you must have Toyota (they own the country market here) and they are increasingly penetrating the wiz bang market but they build boring!! It is like driving a white good.Now the real unknown is what does Arthur Dent think?Thanks Wil for a good post,Cheers,
Guest pelmetman Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Geeco - 2016-01-23 11:42 PM Now the real unknown is what does Arthur Dent think? I suspect Arthur is quite content For the forums poet Mr Dent Knows old Fords are Perfect As he drives a aging Prefect No need to sell your shares To fund a minor repair No complex computer that say's No Just hit it with a hammer and away they go...... :D
Tracker Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 pelmetman - 2016-01-24 9:42 AM Just hit it with a hammer and away they go...... That must be where the dent came from!
HymerVan Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 When it comes to warranty claims in the context of a new or "in warranty" vehicle there are likely to be two warranties available. One from the supplier i.e. seller arising from consumer legislation and possibly a written warranty and a second one from the manufacturer of the base vehicle. Our Citroen Relay (essentially a Fiat in many respects) had suspension problems which the local Citroen agent (a national chain) diagnosed as suspension leg and top mount failure on both sides. Unlikely we thought as the vehicle was eight months old and had done less than 5000 miles. To put it another way nonsense. The supplier/convertor agreed to sort the problem out (whatever was needed) but to assist him we made a warranty claim on Citroen first. Citroen were quite simply appalling in the way they dealt with it including quoting non existent warranty wording (later justified as "policy"). After a considerable e-mail battle they agreed to pay half of the cost of the repair. We rejected this offer and a friend who has a large motor business stripped the suspension down and fixed it (two hours labour) which the convertor paid. The point of my story is that whilst manufacturers (across the board) are on the whole pretty good at building vehicles they can be pretty awful at dealing with warranty claims. How significant this is to any particular owner is to some extent a matter of luck but having a good relationship with your supplier may be a significant factor.
PCC Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Big problem with rusting roofs on the VW California at the moment! Vorsprung durch technik ..... but not when it comes to understanding electrolytic corrosion. Peter
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