RogerThat Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Hi everyone, new member, new to motorhoming, go easy on me :) I've a 1999 new-to-me Swift Sundance and the owners handbook said I must never use the Carver space heater while driving. Which got me wondering... Is this a legal reason? Or a Carver reason? I know some motorhomes can be driven with the habitation heating running, but I guess they're newer or designed completely differently. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randonneur Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 The Carver Space Heater is the fire I presume so therefore not safe to travel with it lit. There is a system called Secumotion that allows you to use the blown air heating when travelling, how safe that is I do not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerThat Posted January 25, 2016 Author Share Posted January 25, 2016 Sorry yes, the main fire in the habitation area is what I meant :) So it's a Carver reason then, by design rather than by law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 The main reason to turn the gas off at the bottle is to minimise the risk of gas escaping from the pipework or equipment after an accident and causing a fire or explosion. Simples innit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I drive with the gas bottles on but with all appliances off as I have more common sense than to travel with ANY naked exposed flame burning so unless an appliance is specifically designed to be alight whilst travelling I would heed the instructions. At best the draught from travelling would extinguish the flame and you would then discover whether the flame failure gas cut off device lives up to it's name and at worst ---------- goodness gracious great balls of fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerThat Posted January 25, 2016 Author Share Posted January 25, 2016 Tracker - 2016-01-25 8:36 PM At best the draught from travelling would extinguish the flame Good point! I thought it might be (as suggested above) in case of accident, but this makes just as much sense too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I feel we should think a little bit wider.than just the equipment on board. If the gas bottle is off then if there is an accident then the gas is confined in its container, unless it is ruptured. This will minimise any chance of gas meeting any spark and causing even greater harm. Leaving the gas bottles on means that any leakage either due to poor maintenance or accident will make any situation far worse. The last thikg a fireman wants to know is that there is gas leaking into an accident scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggyd Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 In our 2013 Autocruise Alto it is designed with a safety cut off so you can travel with the blown heating on !! but my hubby refuses to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Our van is great, it has a separate heating system powered by the engine coolant so when we're driving the van is lovely and warm... Clever stuff B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I always thought that the only really safe thing to do was turn off at the bottle before you turn a wheel but I was too lazy to do that, so we've always driven with the bottle valves open but gas appliances off and the fridge on 12 volts. Then I read that the Truma 6002 heater is (according to Truma) safe to use under way and that in France there is a legal requirement to have an automatic crash-sensitive gas safety valve fitted if you don't turn the bottles off - which rather implies that using gas on the move can be safe, providing the right equipment is used. A Carver heater is very old technology and perhaps wouldn't be safe on the move anyway but on the strength of Truma's expertise, I have fitted one of their latest crash-sensitive regulators. I also installed a truma remote gas valve, but that was probably over-egging things slightly. And we don't use the gas heater while moving anyway because we don't need to - but then we don't take our motorhome skiing, where we might need the extra heat on the move. As a newbie, with an older MH (and a non-crash-sensitive regulator?) you would perhaps be foolish to ignore the Carver manual - but if your lpg system has been checked recently and degradable components like flexible tubes are still in date, whether you turn off at the bottles before moving off is for you to decide. As far as I know there is no specific legal requirement to do so in UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 .....Whilst a slight simplification, a combination of factors is required before use of gas appliances (in particular heating) is considered safe (or legal) whilst travelling. First, the actual appliance needs to have been designed such that it functions properly and safely in these circumstances. With regard to heating appliances, one factor that will apply is that the forced air pressure resulting from motion at the combustion air inlet and exhaust outlet is managed such that it doesn't cause the unit to malfunction. It is very unlikely that the Carver space heater (from my memory of its installation) conforms to this. Any kit that can be used in motion should be explicit about this in the instructions, otherwise it should be considered unsafe. Secondly, the live gas supply must be protected from the effects of "mishaps". Conventionally, approaches to this have been along the lines of the Truma "Secumotion" (superseded) or "CS" systems. These provide a means of cutting off flow from the low-pressure side of the regulator either by sensing that excess flow (Secumotion) or with a Crash Sensor (an inertia switch, I think) protecting against (potential) fractures of the gas system inside the 'van. In conjunction with this, an excess-flow valve in the high-pressure side of the regulator (at the connection at the bottle-end of the bottle to regulator pigtail) protects against fracture of the pigtail hose. It should be noted that some of the newer refillable bottles have the high-pressure excess-flow valve incorporated in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 To the best of my knowledge a motorhome can legally be driven in the UK with any of its gas-fuelled appliances operating. So, if you wanted to drive around with your fridge running on gas, your hob and oven gas-burners alight and your gas-fuelled space- and water-heating operating, I believe there’s no UK law forbidding you from doing so. That you’d be daft to do some of the above things (eg. having the hob/oven alight) should be obvious - and I expect insurance companies could take a dim view - but I don’t think you could be prosecuted for doing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Derek Uzzell - 2016-01-26 9:46 AM if you wanted to drive around with your fridge running on gas, your hob and oven gas-burners alight and your gas-fuelled space- and water-heating operating, I believe there’s no UK law forbidding you from doing so. .... but the cook would probably get booked for not wearing a seat belt. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 malc d - 2016-01-26 9:52 AMDerek Uzzell - 2016-01-26 9:46 AM if you wanted to drive around with your fridge running on gas, your hob and oven gas-burners alight and your gas-fuelled space- and water-heating operating, I believe there’s no UK law forbidding you from doing so. .... but the cook would probably get booked for not wearing a seat belt. ;-) Perhaps I should get a seat belt fitted to our toilet. My cook sometimes has to relocate while we're on the move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Hi, short answer is DONT. it is bad enough driving with a tankful of petrol or diesel, with increasing the riskof a gas explosion in the event of an accident. Turn the bottles off , whether or not you have any other added safety devices . tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Derek Uzzell - 2016-01-26 9:46 AM To the best of my knowledge a motorhome can legally be driven in the UK with any of its gas-fuelled appliances operating. So, if you wanted to drive around with your fridge running on gas, your hob and oven gas-burners alight and your gas-fuelled space- and water-heating operating, I believe there’s no UK law forbidding you from doing so. . Derek, May I have the temerity to question the above statement. I remember reading in the MMM many years ago that it was illegal in the UK, to operate a gas fuelled appliance in any vehicle on the public highway. The public highway was defined as extending from hedge to hedge, thus including lay-bys. So brewing up in at the roadside was illegal. It would be nice to know that the law had been relaxed in this respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmacz Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Remember never to run a car or vehicle on lpg as that is gas and must be switched off. It is dangerous to run with your lpg vehicle with the gas on and lpg vehicles must now be banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Yes but the escape clause would be that a vehicle is not an appliance. More seriously I would like to be certain of the law regarding this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 While there is probably no specific legislation regarding running with a 'Live' and unprotected against sudden leakage gas system, the old Con & Use Regs catch all of using a vehicle so as to cause danger to its passengers or other road user might well be applicable. A detailed post investigation examination of a burnt out motorcaravan that showed the the simple system was still on at the bottle while it was in motion would gladden the heart of the insurance company accountant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 So the vehicle manufacturers who sold all those LPG powered cars got it wrong. I don't think so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Long live paranoia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Alanb - 2016-01-26 2:10 PM Derek Uzzell - 2016-01-26 9:46 AM To the best of my knowledge a motorhome can legally be driven in the UK with any of its gas-fuelled appliances operating. So, if you wanted to drive around with your fridge running on gas, your hob and oven gas-burners alight and your gas-fuelled space- and water-heating operating, I believe there’s no UK law forbidding you from doing so. . Derek, May I have the temerity to question the above statement. I remember reading in the MMM many years ago that it was illegal in the UK, to operate a gas fuelled appliance in any vehicle on the public highway. The public highway was defined as extending from hedge to hedge, thus including lay-bys. So brewing up in at the roadside was illegal. It would be nice to know that the law had been relaxed in this respect. You are assuming that what your read in MMM was true. Years ago (at least 10, more likely nearer 15) I discussed with Truma(Germany) the legality of operating gas appliances (I was particularly interested in Trumatic-C heaters) in a moving vehicle. I was told that a very few countries (eg. Germany) had specific regulations that allowed this provided that certain ’technical’ conditions were met, most countries (including the UK) had no regulations forbidding the practice and, in Europe, just France had a general ban. I think what Truma told me was correct, though it would not surprise me if UK regulations have tightened up since then, as vehicle safety has become more of a priority. As it’s plainly safer to not run gas-fuelled ‘habitation’ appliances while travelling and to turn off gas-bottles/tanks before travelling, I doubt if clubs and magazines that promote leisure-vehicle activities are ever going to advise in those respects that “This is what you SHOULD do, but you are not LEGALLY obliged to do it ” any more than the Archbishop of York would advise about fornication “You really SHOULD not do this, but it’s LEGALLY fine”. All I can suggest is that you research this yourself - I’m always happy to be convinced I’m wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 This thread is amazing....it just goes to show how completely OTT some can get when it comes to issues involving common sense and health and safety.............Please tell me some of those commenting are 'joking'???? Tracker...I only got one 'noia'..... does it matter if I continue in life with just the one or do I really need a 'pair o' noias' to live in the land of the OTT 'elf n safety' numpties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 RogerC - 2016-01-26 4:01 PM Tracker...I only got one 'noia'..... does it matter if I continue in life with just the one or do I really need a 'pair o' noias' to live in the land of the OTT 'elf n safety' numpties? Following a 20 year investigation into 'noias' at a cost to taxpayers of several million Euros the EU has decided that it would infringe your human rights if 'noias' were limited to one each so much as the control freaks wanted to limit them it is decreed that you can legally have as many 'noias' as you want and can afford. Hope this clarifies it for you Roger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Derek Uzzell - 2016-01-26 4:00 PM Archbishop of York would advise about fornication “You really SHOULD not do this, but it’s LEGALLY fine”. That will come as a huge relief to many Derek - if only as one thing less to be paranoid about! Will the dear old Archbishop define fornication for us so we are in no doubt what we can and cannot do or is that definition now an EU matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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