Bio ethanol, fuel of the future?

[Dave Newell]

A few months ago I wrote an article for one of the MMM supplements about future technology in motorhomes. Part of that article was about the manufacture and use of bio ethanol as a fuel. For those of you that have never heard of it bio ethanol is an alcohol based fuel which can be made from crops like corn, wheat, sugar beet etc. Overall it would reduce CO2 emissions because a large proportion of the CO2 given off during combustion is re-absorbed by the crops as they grow. Some continental countries are using it on a large scale and they don't tax it but in this country its a different story and only a few pence per litre cheaper than petrol. Last night on Fifth Gear (channel 5 Monday evening) Tiff Needell tested a Lotus Elise that has been converted to run on an 85%bio ethanol/15%petrol mix. 1.8 litre supercharged engine giving 270 BHP! apparently Morrisons are one of the few fuel suppliers in this country so far selling bio ethanol. Discuss. D.

[David Dwight]

This is the sort of fuel we should be considering for the future. But it is typical of the Government in this country if its there and it might move TAX IT. The minister of Transport said this morning we have got to save energy, asked if doing away with tax on energy an incentive, he answered the question with several other questions, but the answer was no, it is down to us the public to save energy. The so called environmental tax the Government collects. I wonder how much of that goes back to save Carbon emmissions. Isn't CO2 the stuff that with out it we would not be able to breath, oxygen is produced from CO2 by plants, trees. What ever we say or do Nature will take care of its self. There will be another Ice Age in the future, and after that another Global warming.. Naughty naughty Cave man he started the present Global Warming when he made his first Fire. We recycle as much as possible, our local council tells us off for re cycling the wrong plastics even though it has a symble on it. We recycle bottles only to have to use a vehicle to take it to the bottle bank, using energy and causing more problems!!!!! David.

[w1ntersun]

The reason that these fuels are not promoted , like bio diesel is that the South Americans would destroy even more rainforest to grow bio crops. There is no easy answer to this problem. The toyato prius the so called eco car costs more in carbon units to develope build and run than a Jeep 4ltr petrol Just on a slightly off topic note The goverment are asking us to save fuel eg electric. If we save fuel at a cost to us in energy saving devices, the electric companies profits will go down, and we will end up paying more for our fuel to allow these companies to maintain there annual profit growth. WHY ?

[Bill Ord]

Biggest problem I can see with ethanol as a fuel for motorhomes is it's a fuel for spark ignition engines, vegatable oil is all that's required for diesel engines. Rudolph Diesel's engine when first exhibted at the Paris Expo ran on peanut oil; there wasn't any petroleum fuel available and nothing has changed fundamentally in the requirments of present day engines but you will have to pay tax to Gordon at the exchequer. So where's the goverments green credentials?

[Dave Newell]

I was thinking more about bio fuels in general. The thread was prompted by an item in the motoring programme fifth gear about bio ethanol. Bio diesel fuels are also available and can be made from crops like oil seed rape or sunflowers. I rather like the thought of driving along seeing field after field of swaying sunflowers (they always make me smile) and knowing that they could be helping to save our planet! Anyway I run a petrol powered motorhome so bio ethanol would be a viable fuel for me perhaps. D.

[colin]

To paraphase For every silver lining there's a dark cloud, whilst I like the idea of growing crops to provide fuel there is also a downside. Oil seed rape would proboly be favorite for this country, acording to at least one study 1/3 of people have an adverse reaction to it's pollen, I am one of them, it is like a severe hay feaver, fortunatly as the pollen is relativly heavy it dosn't travel to far. Also there is a greater usage of sprays to produce oil seed rape than say wheat, which is not good news for the enviroment. Lets face it, transporting large numbers of people long distances is never going to be good for the enviroment, even electric vechiles which are often touted as polution free, but in reality the polution is produced at a power station instead of at exhaust

[flicka]

Hi Dave The correct formula is Minimum 85% Petrol and Maximum 15% Bioethanol. It is currently a few pence more expensive than 4star, at the above blend octane rating is upped to 99 To quote an independant information source "The most common blend is 10% ethanol and 90% petrol (E10). Vehicle engines require no modifications to run on E10 and vehicle warranties are unaffected also. Only flexible fuel vehicles can run on up to 85% ethanol and 15% petrol blends (E85)." Anyone wanting some further info a good independant site can be found at:- http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/EandE/Web_sites/02-03/biofuels/what_bioethanol.htm or http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4808244.stm Regarding Diesel users there is a lot of movement to produce Biodiesel A useful site for info & supplies :- http://www.purebiodiesel.co.uk/ Flicka

[Brian Kirby]

[QUOTE]w1ntersun - 2006-11-14 9:07 AM The reason that these fuels are not promoted , like bio diesel is that the South Americans would destroy even more rainforest to grow bio crops. There is no easy answer to this problem. The toyato prius the so called eco car costs more in carbon units to develope build and run than a Jeep 4ltr petrol Just on a slightly off topic note The goverment are asking us to save fuel eg electric. If we save fuel at a cost to us in energy saving devices, the electric companies profits will go down, and we will end up paying more for our fuel to allow these companies to maintain there annual profit growth. WHY ?[/QUOTE]

Answer, because some pillock sold them off!  However, I guess that's a political comment so it'll get banned :-)

[Brian Kirby]

[QUOTE]Dave Newell - 2006-11-14 7:03 AM A few months ago I wrote an article for one of the MMM supplements about future technology in motorhomes. Part of that article was about the manufacture and use of bio ethanol as a fuel. For those of you that have never heard of it bio ethanol is an alcohol based fuel which can be made from crops like corn, wheat, sugar beet etc. Overall it would reduce CO2 emissions because a large proportion of the CO2 given off during combustion is re-absorbed by the crops as they grow. Some continental countries are using it on a large scale and they don't tax it but in this country its a different story and only a few pence per litre cheaper than petrol. Last night on Fifth Gear (channel 5 Monday evening) Tiff Needell tested a Lotus Elise that has been converted to run on an 85%bio ethanol/15%petrol mix. 1.8 litre supercharged engine giving 270 BHP! apparently Morrisons are one of the few fuel suppliers in this country so far selling bio ethanol. Discuss. D.[/QUOTE]

Being a pedant, I think the real advantage from bio fuels is not so much that the growing crop re-absorbs the carbon emitted while its by product burns, it is that by burning the bio fuel you don't burn refined hydro carbons, and so release old carbon. 

You can burn all the wood you like, all you're doing is accellerating the carbon cycle, as that wood would eventually be turned to carbon through decomposition.  All you have to do to absorb the carbon you've brought forward by burning, is re-plant corresponding amounts of plants. 

The problem with the rain forests is that no one is doing the re-planting.

The problem with coal, oil and gas is that they represent carbon that was locked out of the carbon cycle millions of years ago.  When these fuels are burned, the carbon released is added to today's carbon cycle.  It is the addition of this old carbon that is the unmanageable element of global warming.  This, it seems, cannot be compensated by planting more trees, oil seed rape, sunflowers or anything else.

Motorhomes, in their present form, are not environmentally friendly.  They guzzle fuel, burn LPG and, even plugged into the mains, merely displace their haydocarbon consumption to the nearset power station (Unless nuclear or wind).  They consume aluminium, steel, copper, lead, some precious metals, silica, and tons of plastics (hydrocarbons).  The good guys help with solar panels and wind generators, but I'd guess that an energy audit on either would show that the energy consumed in manufacture, promotion and distribution exceeds the potential lifetime output by quite a margin.

What we should have is thatched, horse drawn, gipsy type caravans with wood burning stoves for heat and cooking and lit by (organic) oil lamps or (non tallow) candles.  Oh, and you couldn't have a smoke alarm because they have all the naughty things in them as well!

Just wait until the Chinese take up motorhoming in a big way, the poo will well and truly hit the fan then!

[flicka]

For anyone travelling in France, TOTAL are rolling out Bioethanol to approx 250 of their Service stations during 2007. Their literature says that it will be the E85 grade (85% Petrol 15% Bioethanol) No indication of what price differential will be though, also no indication regarding Biodiesel availability. I contacted Fiat regarding Biodiesel use and their warranty posion. They say "Thank you for contacting the Fiat Information Centre. If you wish to use biodiesel it should be pointed out that it can only be used on all our diesel vehicles (naturally aspirated, turbo and JTD), in a minimal percentage, namely not more than 5% mixed with regular diesel fuel. The use of biodiesel in quantities that exceed the recommended amount described above can cause problems with fuel system components. Consequently improper usage invalidates warranty. For further information we would suggest contacting an authorised Fiat dealership. If you require further assistance or need to know the whereabouts of other authorised Fiat dealership please go to www.fiat.co.uk. Alternatively, please do not hesitate to contact the Information Centre on 00800 3428 0000. Office hours are Monday - Friday, 8am - 5pm. Any one of our Customer Service Representatives will be happy to assist with your enquiries. Best regards, Fiat Information Centre" Flicka

[Dave Newell]

[QUOTE]flicka - 2006-11-15 8:00 PM For anyone travelling in France, TOTAL are rolling out Bioethanol to approx 250 of their Service stations during 2007. Their literature says that it will be the E85 grade (85% Petrol 15% Bioethanol) No indication of what price differential will be though, also no indication regarding Biodiesel availability. I contacted Fiat regarding Biodiesel use and their warranty posion. They say "Thank you for contacting the Fiat Information Centre. If you wish to use biodiesel it should be pointed out that it can only be used on all our diesel vehicles (naturally aspirated, turbo and JTD), in a minimal percentage, namely not more than 5% mixed with regular diesel fuel. The use of biodiesel in quantities that exceed the recommended amount described above can cause problems with fuel system components. Consequently improper usage invalidates warranty. For further information we would suggest contacting an authorised Fiat dealership. If you require further assistance or need to know the whereabouts of other authorised Fiat dealership please go to www.fiat.co.uk. Alternatively, please do not hesitate to contact the Information Centre on 00800 3428 0000. Office hours are Monday - Friday, 8am - 5pm. Any one of our Customer Service Representatives will be happy to assist with your enquiries. Best regards, Fiat Information Centre" Flicka [/QUOTE] Hang on a mo Flicka, earlier you said E85 was 85% bio ethanol and 15% petrol (exactly the ratio quoted on fifth gear) yet now you say E85 is 85% petrol and 15% bio ethanol. Which is it please? The reply from Fiat is exactly what I would expect from a motor manufacturer, a&se covering. Try contacting a bio fuel manufacturer with the same question and lets see what they say. D. (lol)

[flicka]

Hi Dave Sorry if I caused any confusion My origial post was "The correct formula is Minimum 85% Petrol and Maximum 15% Bioethanol. It is currently a few pence more expensive than 4star, at the above blend octane rating is upped to 99" My next post was:- "For anyone travelling in France, TOTAL are rolling out Bioethanol to approx 250 of their Service stations during 2007. Their literature says that it will be the E85 grade (85% Petrol 15% Bioethanol) No indication of what price differential will be though, also no indication regarding Biodiesel availability. " It should read:- 85% Petrol, with a maximum 15% Bioethanol = EURO Grade E85 There is also another EURO grade E10, which contains la lower % Bioethanol. I also heard on the radio today, that a Company is to build a Bioethanol fuel plant in the North East. No indication when it will come on-stream. Regarding BioDiesel, in the Humberside region the only supplier I am aware of Rix Petroleum http://www.rixbiodiesel.co.uk/ gives links to their Service Stations locations & info on Biodiesel. Again apologies for any confusion. Flicka :$

[Guest peter]

I've got some 40% Bio-Ethanol 60% Distilled water mix in my house....................it's called Vodka. How much Carbon is produced during the distillation of Bio-Ethanol?, quite a bit I bet. What's wrong with using Methanol? another Bio fuel.

[flicka]

Dave As you say it appears Fiat are covering their A$$'e's. Checking the website (Rix Biodiesel) of my previous post They are using USED Vegetable Oil as the Bio, element. (Plenty of Fish & Chip Shops in Hull ?) It also lists -"Existing Diesel Vehicle Warranties" That shows some Manufacturers Warranty do cover use of 100% Biodiesel. Including Audi (1996on) BMW, (525 - 1997, 3-5 series - 2001 on) Mecedes (some) Volkswagen (TDi 1996 on) & Volvo cars. Fiat only cover Tractors. PSA (Peugot Citroen)Personal car cover "All Hdi up to 30% biodiesel Blend* except where stated & Tractors Since 1990" Rix website quotes: -"Existing Diesel Vehicle Warranties" "A growing number of manufacturers endorse the use of biodiesel both in blend with mineral diesel and pure as a 100% biodiesel fuel. The biodiesel is produced to conform to pr EN 14214 the proposed European standard. In a 95%diesel / 5% biodiesel blend the fuel meets the existing EN 590 automotive fuels specification. Numerous engine manufacturers have already endorsed the use of a 95/5 mix. Further News on the UK Plant reported on the Radio, (see my previous post) http://www.eta.co.uk/news/newsview.asp?n=659 Had not heard of ETA before, but they could be a good source for monitoring developments. Their site describes them as:- Why the ETA? We are the only motoring organisation to campaign for a sustainable transport system. Flicka

[Clive]

If you have Pure Methanol you can put this straight into a DMFC Fuel Cell, convert it straight into electricity and power an electric motor!! Here is an example of a Methanol powered passenger carrying vehicle :-

[colin]

Just been reading that Citroen say their HDi engines can run on up to 30% biodiesel. It must meet EN14214, have been stored correctly, and not be contaminated, you must first register with Citreon aftersales.

[flicka]

Colin Was there any indication from Citroen regarding which engine. This year's EURO 4 specification or the earlier EURO3 ? It's a big increase on Fiat's official line of 5% for their earlier EURO 3 spec JDT units. I am aware the bodies for Fait, Peugeot & Citroen are all "common", but do each manufacturer build their OWN engines or are they "common" also? Flicka

[colin]

Didn't see any ref, to a particler engine model, just said all HDi's IIRC Pug and Fiat have 2.2/100BHP and 2.3/120BHP Citreon has 2.2/100BHP BUT also 2.2/120BHP I had thought it was a mix up on web site but aparently Citreon are going their own way on 120BHP engine, so they are not all the same.