Guest adhple Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Have any of you used an A Frame in Europe and been stoped from uaing it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 There was an 8-page-long forum discussion in 2011 as a result of a similar question being asked (relating specifically to being fined for A-framing in Spain rather than stopped in Europe). Might be worth you ploughing through it... http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/A-Frame-fines/25123/ And this more recent (April 2015) forum thread (also relating to Spain) http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Spain-and-towing-a-car-with-an-A-Frame/37955/ includes a forum-member (PeteH) saying that he had been stopped 3 times when A-framing in Spain. For a summary of the situation there’s a full-page article ( “Are A-Frames legal in Europe?”) on Page 200 of the latest (March 2016) issue of MMM magazine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 It would also be wise to bear in mind that Europe is larger than the EU alone, and that the 28 member countries of the EU all have their own laws regarding towing. There is no Europe-wide law that can be quoted. You need to check the laws of each country you propose visiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonaldson Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Do they still get stopped with the A frame fitted with the braking system to the trailor cars foot brake. Bare A frames are just for emergency purposes. Mind you my mate uses one in this country. Shhhhhh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 I have been using a Braked A-frame here in the UK for 3 years, no problems. Wouldn't chance it on the Continent though. Perfectly safe way of taking your car with you, but if you want to do it in Europe, use a trailer, if you have the tow capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 gordonaldson - 2016-02-05 7:36 PM ...Bare A frames are just for emergency purposes... This is one of those ‘everybody knows is true’ things, but I’m not sure it actually is the case in the UK. Out of curiosity I did some research once about how one vehicle might legally tow another (whether the latter was broken down or not) and I failed to establish what the UK law was. So I’d be interested to learn if anyone can identify which (if any) motoring regulations prohibit using an unbraked A-frame, or a solid bar, or a tow-rope to tow a car that is in fully working order and when there’s no ‘emergency’. (And I’m not asking to be pointed at RAC, AA , Caravan Club or police forums that offer opinions - I want the specific regulations identified.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Sorry to give a incomplete answer Derek, but am on my phone. I did some searching last year and found some info on either .gov or vosa but more importantly found details of the court case which sets the presidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 If you can track the information down I’d be grateful. No rush... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Derek Uzzell - 2016-02-06 9:37 AM Out of curiosity I did some research once about how one vehicle might legally tow another (whether the latter was broken down or not) and I failed to establish what the UK law was. So I’d be interested to learn if anyone can identify which (if any) motoring regulations prohibit using an unbraked A-frame, or a solid bar, or a tow-rope to tow a car that is in fully working order and when there’s no ‘emergency’. Derek, The best I can find is this gov.uk website... https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/408927/a-frames-and-dollies.pdf And I'll quote from it... "When used for recovering broken down vehicles “dollies” are exempt from having an operational braking system fitted, provided that the towing vehicle is capable of meeting the minimum prescribed braking requirements for the combination. However, if “dollies” are used for the transportation of perfectly functioning vehicles they will need to be fitted with an operational braking system" And another paragraph giving info on speed limits and directly relative to use for 'Recovery'... "...there is further legislation under the Road TrafficRegulation Act 1984that introduces a limitation on the maximum speed that the combination can be driven; this is 40mph on motorways and 20mph on other road." PS The use of the term 'Dollies' also includes 'A-Frames' in this context. Does this help answer your query? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Keithl, I have just read the whole document posted, and it treats 'Braked A-Frames' and 'unbraked Dollies' for towing broken down vehicles differently. 1st page Braked A-Frames, 2nd Page Unbraked Dollies. Their conclusion was that Braked A-Frames are legal,(although not tested by court precedent) Unbraked A-Frames are limited to 750kgs and 20mph limit. which is sensible. Not trying to contradict you, just pointing out the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Sorry Ray but that was my misinterpretation. What I actually meant to say was that UN-Braked A-Frames and towing dollies where classed the same on page 2. I agree that Braked A-Frames are 'Legal' as far as DfT are concerned, but again with the Caveat that this has never been tested in a court of law! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Edit. Sorry for the double post, I'm having Internet troubles at home :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonaldson Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 The only thing that I'm going by and the Police may go by is this 750kg issue, as off anything towed over this weight must be braked, whether on 2 or 4 wheels. The emergency services one of no brakes is interesting but its stipulated as lawfull. There is also the case of what you are allowed to tow regarding weight. A car can tow a car but not one which is heavier. Be silly to see a car towing a lorry, but, when you put a car on a trailor the combination may be heavier than the tow car. Landrovers can tow around 4 tons but is this lawfull. You have probably seen it on the road. Last one I seen was a BMW towing a Discovery on a trailor, braked trailor of course, that's if brakes were working that is. Discussion is limitless sorry to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Derek Uzzell - 2016-02-06 10:22 AM If you can track the information down I’d be grateful. No rush... I've just done a few searches, I can't find ref to the court case, I did a search last year,not sure what terms I used, but on one page I found a link to a prosecution which established case law regarding use of unbraked recovery a frames, I'm fairly certain that I was reading a page on 'caratow' or similar which was explaining their view on what was legal and not legal which referred to a court case, googling this came up with the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Some background... I worked in IT at GCHQ Cheltenham for 26 years. where – to begin with at least - I was an ‘old-school’ systems analyst/programmer. I’m an atheist and the local Jehovah’s Witnesses have said (literally) that they’ve given up on me. I’m not a credulous person and if you asked me if I believed the sun would rise tomorrow, I’d just say “Probably”. When I researched this towing thing, it seemed to me that there were no general UK motoring regulations about vehicles towing vehicles and which methods were legal and which were not. The underlying principle appeared to involve the police deciding arbitrarily whether they considered what was being done was ‘safe’. I felt that – if UK vehicle-towing-vehicle regulations were really that loose – it would be understandable that A-frame suppliers/users would seek to bring the A-framing practice under the umbrella of trailer-related law which is much tighter regulation-wise. I’m not going to be A-framing myself and the days when I’ve been towed in a car (or towed a car) long distance on a piece of rope are over, so I’m just curious as to what the UK law ACTUALLY is regarding one vehicle towing another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Reply to background, I was an IT hardware engineer, with 30 years experience of mainly obsolete equipment, I worked in the North London area, one day I got a call from my manager that my (obsolete) experience was required at GCHQ Cheltenham, evidently they had an archive of data on old reel to reel tapes that they wanted to transfer onto new media. They had a bank of old tape drives that hadn't been powered on for 5 years at least, my job was to get at least 3 of the 8 working, well enough to transfer the data. I had a week to do it. I had to cannibalise the old drives for spares. I wasn't allowed access to the archive, which I was told was created 10 years ago (oxide tape deteriorates over time) AND I had a chaperone everywhere I went, including the toilet. It was a very good and ultimately satisfing experience, I managed to do it in 4 days. It was the last REAL engineering job I did before I retired. But I was never told if the data transfer worked, I presume it did .? As I was never called back. Now of course no-one uses tape storage. Bletchley Park is a good museum for old IT . Ps my views on A-framing are well represented on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Those were the days - perhaps we passed each other in GCHQ’s corridors like ships in the night... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Isn't all this a secret? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Only if you went to Cambridge 8-) , I knew the writing was on the wall when they stopped calibrating our oscilloscopes, eventually they took them away....for safekeeping !!!! all down hill after that, monkey see,monkey do. no skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Brian Kirby - 2016-02-08 5:35 PMIsn't all this a secret? :-D Tee Hee! I had to sign the Official Secrets Act when I worked for the Nature Conservancy in Snowdonia. We were chasing sheep round the hills to see what grass they ate. I can tell you their favourite was ...... Arrggghhh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Slightly off topic but we are in Benicassim Spain at moment and a Dutch motorhome pulled in today-with a Micra on an A-frame!!! Just had to post this! On saying that, it is the only one I've seen this year and all the rest are on trailers Mike PS N332 website advises that police are stopping vans without a warning board if they have bikeracks on the back. Not seen anyone stopped for anything as yet personally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Stopping folk for having bikeracks on the back ?? Can I ask why ? Seems a bit draconian, and a little bit pointless surely. Sorry didn't read the post properly, without warning boards on, I understand now, do they have to be 30 gauge aluminium or some such stupidity ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 laimeduck - 2016-02-08 6:59 PMBrian Kirby - 2016-02-08 5:35 PMIsn't all this a secret? :-DTee Hee! I had to sign the Official Secrets Act when I worked for the Nature Conservancy in Snowdonia.We were chasing sheep round the hills to see what grass they ate.I can tell you their favourite was ...... Arrggghhh!Alas, Poor Jeremy. :-( As a fellow "signatory", I should perhaps have warned him that some very powerful and influential people had developed an unusual fondness for those sheep, and fiercely guarded their secret. No names etc. OK, M? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Rayjsj - 2016-02-08 10:05 PM Stopping folk for having bikeracks on the back ?? Can I ask why ? Seems a bit draconian, and a little bit pointless surely. Sorry didn't read the post properly, without warning boards on, I understand now, do they have to be 30 gauge aluminium or some such stupidity ? Dunno-ain't got a pushbike/rack so can't confirm-just what I read on the N332 site Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Brian Kirby - 2016-02-09 12:18 AMlaimeduck - 2016-02-08 6:59 PMBrian Kirby - 2016-02-08 5:35 PMIsn't all this a secret? :-DTee Hee! I had to sign the Official Secrets Act when I worked for the Nature Conservancy in Snowdonia.We were chasing sheep round the hills to see what grass they ate.I can tell you their favourite was ...... Arrggghhh!Alas, Poor Jeremy. :-( As a fellow "signatory", I should perhaps have warned him that some very powerful and influential people had developed an unusual fondness for those sheep, and fiercely guarded their secret. No names etc. OK, M? :-DI had to sign 'non disclosure' when the company I worked for invented/developed the LED-anybody heard about them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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