Ocsid Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Thinking of moving from caravan to motorhome ; this will have to be limited to 3500kgs and be a low profile coachbuilt with a design optimised for just two berths. What is a workable user payload, where I define that as the difference between max mass and ex-factory? We come from a c'van with 280 kgs plus a tow vehicle capable of another 450 kgs, so 730 kgs. The c'van we know we work very close to its limits, but assume the tow vehicle runs light. A dealer is suggesting 300kg is workable but I know for us that is not going to work, however judging what will is challenging me. Any guidance ideally with supporting reasoning would be gratefully received. Thanks JO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Bearing in mind that rarely is the payload as much as the headline figure suggests due often to the addition of extras either from new or as time passes I personally would not buy a van with much less than around 500kgs headline figure, or if I had it weighed before loading around a genuine minimum of 400 kgs payload after all the add ons that we like are added as that is what I consider to be about what we need for a full holiday load. There are two of us and that allowance used to include a border collie and food and accoutrements but given that the junk expands to fill all the available space whatever you start off with is unlikely to be what you end up with carrrying! Things like for example but not limited to extra battery, solar panel, awning, spare wheel, mains lead(s), corner steadies if they were not included in the original specification will all eat up lots of kgs. So much depends on your type of use and duration, for example you can make do with a lot less for a two week stay on a UK site than you can for a four week 'trek' half way across Europe not using sites. For example we always travel with a full tank of fresh water which if the waste and loo need emptying can add as much as 150 kgs in extreme conditions - but at least you have some immediate control over that element of what you carry! Purely a personal view and no doubt other differing views will follow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Its all about what you need and if you need 780kg then get a trailer. When I return home with mine it is going to be stripped of all these "must take" things that have never been, or never will be used. Take stock of what you actually need and then throw out half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Your dealer is right, 300kg is a workable payload for a couple. We manage with slightly less than that. However, if you want an all singing and dancing motorhome that enables you to enjoy life to the full and partake in a range of activities, then 300kg will come nowhere near close. Have a look at this article: https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/articles/practical-advice/motorhome-payload You need to be very careful as to how your dealer/your manufacturer calculates the payload for your motorhome. There are regulations covering how Mass in Running Order [MIRO] is calculated. Your payload is the difference between 3,500kg and MIRO. For the more adventurous, touring the Continent for long periods, and not using sites, then 700kg may be more workable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 ocsid, remember that unladen weight quickly jumps to MIRO which has to include the driver at 75kg, water and fuel at 90% (another 180 ish kg)..plus gas ..so, 250kg gone straight away.... add in solar panel, satellite system, twin batteries etc, etc....electric bikes, chairs, table, etc...etc.. our unladen weight 3050....MTPLM 4250....so 'payload' 1.2 tonnes?.....i wish..... we run at about 3650 fully up and running, inluding both of us, fuel, water, gas, food, wine, bikes, sat system, wind out awning, SP, twin batteries, chairs, tables, cables, hoses, levellers etc, etc... so, we used 600kg in getting to full running weight.....thats before we add anything thats not normally carried..... fortunately, we have 600kg to spare, bit you can see how things can change..... edit.... one other thing....sounds like you have plenty of 'stuff' the issue will be, how do you carry some of the larger stuff.....often access hatches are small with uk style vans (rear lounge)..rear garages are good, but dont mix with uk low bed design....what van have you in mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 A payload of between 400 and 500kg is normally sufficient, depending on what has already been added to the base vehicle, like awning etc. However, if you want to future proof your investment and your driving licence allows you to go above 3500kg then buy a vehicle with 16 inch wheels which allows a greater payload. You will find that your requirements change over time. I bought a van with 15 inch wheels and found I could only upgrade to 3700kg. I wanted to carry a scooter on the back and even the upgrade was insufficient to keep within the permissible axle weights. I subsequently bought a van with 16 inch wheels and a 4250kg chassis and just about keep within permissible limits. If you buy a van which is rated over 3500kg you can always down-rate it for a nominal sum, although you will lose a bit of payload by having the heavier chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candapack Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 As I have recently discovered to my cost, this is a nightmare area. We bought a new Autotrail. MIRO 3,195kg. Max Gross Weight we had uprated to 3,650kg. So a payload of 455kg, plenty I thought. We carry bikes and already had a towball mounted rack, so had a towbar fitted. Towbar, rack and bikes, 96kg. Fitted second leisure battery, 24kg. Payload soon disappears. Anyway, we loaded the van with our "stuff", put on the bike rack and bikes, took the dog and went off to a weighbridge. Full fuel tank, no water, that's how Autotrail calculate MIRO. We had everything except food and clothes. I honestly thought I would find how much we had available for food, clothes and water. Result, Max Gross Weight 3,650kg, weighbridge weight 3,660kg!! So, managed to ditch about 40kg of hopefully unnecessary stuff. Heading off now to Spain without bikes, saving another 61kg (towbar is 35kg and has to stay). Food, clothes, hobby stuff and a reasonable amount of water will almost certainly still leave us overweight, but ditching water if required should keep us on the move if not avoiding a fine. On return, will organise a further uprate of Max Gross Weight, having spoken to S V Tech another 200kg should be possible without too much intervention. Or cost. I will also take van in MIRO condition to a weighbridge, just to see what it says. My belief is that the tolerance figures in very small print in the brochure (+/- 3%) are used to allow the manufacturer to quote MIRO's that will always be less than the actual weight. In my case, 3% of 3,195kg is an extra 96kg. That makes a huge difference when payload is APPARENTLY 455kg. Beware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Ocsid - 2016-02-09 7:26 PM....................... What is a workable user payload, where I define that as the difference between max mass and ex-factory?.................. Impossible to answer with certainty, but I think you have started in the right place by ignoring MIRO which, being a formulaic calculation, bears little relationship to reality. This is becoming more true as manufacturers, having lobbied for change, exploit the relaxations to depart increasingly from the spirit of the original guidelines. Do therefore pay very close attention to how any vehicle weights are calculated, making sure you understand what they are leaving out. All factory fit options add to the ex works weight of the most basic version of the vehicle, which is invariably the figure you will find in the catalogue. Better manufacturers list the weights of options alongside their prices. However, on the basis that you prefer (i.e. payload = MAM - ex works weight), across three vans and ten years, we have found that our total added load has been between 600kg and 700kg. This takes into account everything added to the vehicle's ex works weight, including roll-out awning, gas (2 x 13kg steel cylinders, both full), fuel (100%), water (100%), driver and passenger (actual weights), all clothing, bedding, food, footwear, liquids, bikes, camping clutter, tools, a spare wheel, books and guides, nav aids, computers, cameras etc etc. We tend to travel spring and autumn, and we tend to head south in Europe, so the clothing caters for wide (though not extreme!) climatic variation. We use campsites, so have less need for supplementary batteries, solar panels, etc to enhance the time we can spend "off-grid". We tend to travel for 8 - 12 weeks at a stretch, but do not "stock-up" on food before departure, buying as we go. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy Wonka Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 The payload figures given by the Dealer and Manufactures are either worked out on the back of a fag packet or taken from a Fairy story. Rarely do they relate to the actual payload and you'll only find the payload by taking the MH, whether new or second hand, to a weighbridge (usually costs about £5). We were told by the Dealer and the information in the brochure that our MH had 525 kg payload – in your dreams! It was more like 350kg when I weighed it and we are in a similar situation to Tracker (including Border Collie) and we just about meet the limit when going abroad. 350kg is eaten up by full fresh water tank, second battery, 2 bottle gas system, fridge/freezer full, enough clothes for a month and every type of weather, spare wheel (should be part of the original spec but isn't), tables and chairs, a tool kit for every known or imagined disaster and other bits and bobs too numerous to list. The return trip to the UK with the contents of a Vineyard in the garage probably makes us illegal but we take that risk – and we always keep enough cash handy in case the wife has to catch the train home should we need to reduce the weight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 If it any help, we have a Stargazer, rated at 3500 kg , and we took it fully laden to weighbridge and total was 3420 this included all our stuff for 6 week holiday in south of france in june last year. 2 mature adults, 2 lafuma relaxers, water and diesel full, fridge fully stocked, packets and tinned food for 2 weeks , small gas barbie, 3 camping gas 901,wardrobe full, (her stuff mainly), 2 electric bikes on rear. Ex caravan waste tank to drain down into daily and empty so we didnt carry unnecessary waste water,, boule sets, camera bag , laptop,8 books, maps, toolbox, groundsheet, windbreak, pegs, mallet, zilverscreens, bike helmets, avtec tv, cutlery, rockery, pots and pans, electric travelling iron, ipads, satnag, phones, shoes, sandals , and a whole host of small items, pen, pencil, rubber,etc, and of course passports, documents etc. unladen weighed in at 3200, driver and diesel included. ps van has awning and solar panel already fitted. this suggests that clutter and essentials added approx 230kilo. we weighed each significant bagful as it was loaded, and made a detailed list so we coud ditch the heaviest item should there be a need later. Water would be heaviest easy ditcheable item. What should we leave behind? (Dont suggest dieting!!!) Tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocsid Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 Thank you all for the significant effort you have put into helping me, and it does. We are going to have look very carefully as we know from our caravanning we will not keep to 300 kgs even if the van in reality offers that. Been through all that lost to build tolerance stuff already and last van had to be weighed before we accepted it.[lost at a stroke 62 kgs from guide figure]. After 35 years doing this we are not going to suddenly go minimalist, hopefully not have to give up our bikes or live without an awning of sorts. I have very well documented figures for the c'vans items, but need to weigh the car's contents and see what rationalisation is tolerable. Wardrobe I suspect will be vetoed. However, your input endorses my own thoughts. This is a minefield so easily glossed over in the euphoria of seeking new vans! Thanks again JO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 No less than a genuine 500kg IMHO. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffy Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 It is not just the total payload to worry about, it needs to be balanced. We have a rear kitchen and we carry two bikes on the back which means the rear axle is very easily overload while the front end floats about. We try to load stuff as far forward as we can to balance it out but with the front wheels being set so far forward a percentage of anything we carry has a bearing on the rear axle. When we first got the van we had to lose 150kgms to get it to a legal weight. The theoretical payload from the brochure was 385kg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Ocsid, Cliffy raises the next hurdle to payload mgt.....axle loads..... vans without decent rear storage will require bikes to be slung 'out back' on a carrier of sorts....this immediately creats a lever effect of adding more to the rear axle than the actual weight itself.... what style of van are you looking at?....one with a garage places most of the load at the rear but closer to the rear axle than one where the load is placed beyond the rear of the van. of you have a van in mind, i would get it weighed before you get too far down the line, paying particular attention to the rear axle load. good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 I have a campervan with a so called payload of 450 kg. I also have a caravan with a payload of 310 kg and while using it we found w ehad to carefully 'edit' what we carried, even using the car as a back up store. There are a number of ways you can make things easier but a lot will depend on your style of camping. For example in the caravan I started out with 2 Calor bottles at the front but found out that as we used EHU most of the time we always had a full spare at the end of the season, so one was ditched. Even that lasted the whole summer so that was ditched in place of a Camping Gaz 907 bottle. Yes, more expensive but a significant weight saving and one lasted 70% of a season. Plus a refill in Europe was 19 euros, so not that bad. The second way to 'lose' weight is to look at your food. Do you really need to have the fridge stacked to the gunnals befoe you start? If you go to Europe you will find food is either the same price or cheaper than here, so why carry it? Do you need a back up store of tins? Again, from the caravan days we invariably came home with 3/4 of the tins still in the locker. Look at your clothes and plan accordingly to where you will spend most time. If like us, it is the Med then shorts and T shirts are all you need, not lots of shirts trousers, dresses etc, unless you really plan on going to the Casino in Monte Carlo. carry a few winter clothes for the trip down and back, and then leave the rest at home. Look at your 'spares' box, do you need all those bits you have never actually used, but have just in case? Fortunately our caravan never had an oven so anything that could not be cooked outside on a grill was ignored. The campervan is the same and again a hotplate will suffice/. Learning from our days with the caravan have allowed us to fill the new campervan far more intelligently, and have also decided that eating out will be a pleasurable option where we can. There is one final way to lose weight............get divorced and save 70 kg, but maybe your wife has had a similar idea??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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