Wasnt Me Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=161966895032&alt=web Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 A moot point. They are an alternative to a refillable system, but without an 80% count off I wouldn't trust them, too easy to overfill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Safe? No, so whether they are legal or nor is irrelevant. There are an increasing number of fuel stations who will not let you fill 'loose' gas cylinders because of the safety issue. As a minimum, I would expect to see a safety cut off valve or accurate gauge so you can't inadvertently overfill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 They are presumably legal to sell, although the ones I've seen on EBay have all been offered from outside UK, so maybe they are illegal. As explained above you would find it difficult to be allowed to use one at an UK autogas outlet anyway. They are simply connector tubes (some with a non-return valve in the middle) with a POL connector (to mate with a UK propane bottle) at one end and a bayonet connector at the other, to which an autogas pump outlet would connect. The problem is that rental gas bottles (eg Calor) do not have any device to prevent over-filling because they are re-filled by the supplier using control systems involving weight - which is another way of avoiding filling over the safe level. Liquid expands when it warms up and if a gas bottle is filled with liquid gas leaving no room for the incompressible liquid to expand as it warms, the expansion would rupture the bottle, suddenly releasing all the contents. The cloud of vaporising gas could very easily catch fire and there would be a very big bang. Hence LPG bottles are never filled completely and those which are designed to be re-filled by users have cut off valves inside them to prevent this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasnt Me Posted February 15, 2016 Author Share Posted February 15, 2016 That's it then I've ordered 5! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Wasn't Me - 2016-02-15 5:05 PM http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=161966895032&alt=web Thanks in advance AFAIK, they don't break statue law, but they do break contract law. If you attempt to refill a rented cylinder, instead of exchanging it for a full one, you break your contract with the rental company. Have a look at your agreement with Calor, or whoever. Whether this breach could be detected, or pursued, by the rental company is a different matter, and so is the remedy the company may have against you. In terms of safety, if you are prudent over the amount by which you fill the cylinder (I would suggest staying below the maximum volume quoted on the website), you should not create undue risk. However, if you got it wrong, and a cylinder burst as a consequence, the result would be likely to have consequences. How the severe those consequences might be would depend greatly on the location of the cylinder at the time of the burst, and, if it was in your van, on whether the van was occupied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerThat Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 There's no way I'd be brave enough to use one of those (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Years and years ago, when I was using LPG in small bottles for cooking and heating in a yacht, I was too mean to pay for re-fills of the little bottles so I had a bottle connector braised on the end of a length of copper tube. One end on the small bottle and the other on bigger one, which I placed upside down on the bench, so I had a hydrostatic gradient. I then opened both bottle valves and left the set up for ten or twenty minutes for the liquid gas to gravitate into the lower, smaller bottle, which it did. I then closed both bottle valves and undid the connecting pipe - which resulted is a pipe-full of liquid gas escaping and vaporising but I was out in the garage, so that just escaped. (I was a non-smoker!) I knew not to risk gas escape in the yacht, because LPG is heavier than air so it would accumulate in the bilges. But I didn't know about the need to avoid over-filling the small bottles. I transported the small bottles to the yacht and stored them on board and fortunately never remember having any gas leaks, let alone a bottle splitting. The re-filled small bottles were sometimes stored for many months before use. Maybe the slow rate at which the liquid gas transferred between the bottles, which involved only slow flow and might even have involved LPG evaporating in the upper bottle and condensing into the smaller one, because the tube was only about 5mm internal diameter, was sufficient to prevent me from over-filling the re-filled small bottles. But I wouldn't do it again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 I'm not sure i'd chance one though with the exorbitant price of bottled gas in UK i can see these things flying off the shelf. If i had choice i'd fit Gas-Lo's but as i can't i buy my bottled gas in Poland where it's 75% cheaper than ours. Apart from the two bottles, the only thing i had to buy was a regulator to fit.....which cost me six quid.....more than what i pay for a full bottle of gas! (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Notwithstanding the legality of this filling method, my main concern would be the effects of over-filling. If the bottle was overfilled so there was insufficient space for the liquid to vaporise within the bottle - the liquid would reach (say) the cooking hob, and when lit, would ignite with disasterous consequences. I used Cadac factory filled bottles in Southern Africa. However, the bottles always came with a safety warning - BEFORE USE, always briefly open the valve on the bottle to make sure only gas vapour is ejected. To this day, I always carry out this simple procedure on factory filled bottles before connecting to the MH gas system. Not quite so easy on a plumbed-in Gaslow system but one can always first check that the hob is issuing gas as opposed to neat liquid (BEFORE ignition). Keep safe >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 If liquid LPG ever came out of your hob it would be a larger yellow flame like a Bunsen burner, wouldn't be a problem. I know this because when using my mapp gas torch upside down, after so long liquid will come out and ignite in a big yellow flame. Anyway liquid is unlikely to ever be in the pipes as the pressure is only 30mb which in English is only about 0.4psi it would evaporate furiously at this pressure unless it's a very very cold van, like -40° Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Although I have Gas-It refillables in the van I do own a similar adapter to the one on Ebay although mine appears to be of much better quality and is very solidly made out of brass and has a very effective non-return valve. It was bought for use on the boat in situations abroad where an exchange cylinder wasn't available or a local cylinder wouldn't fit in the very constrained gas locker. I consider it both legal and safe to use. I fill a cylinder not covered by a rental agreement, outdoors, in plain sight and with the agreement of the LPG supplier and I add a quantity of gas that maintains the contents at below 80% full (calculated using a digital scale and known bottle Tare and contents weights). I also decant from a large bottle to fill a smaller bottle using the method described by Stuart. Again, done outdoors using a short high pressure transfer hose, calculated weight of LPG and no bottle rental agreement, I consider it legal and safe. The escape of gas when disconnecting (as described by Stuart) is minimized by first closing the upper bottle's valve and allowing the liquid to drain from the hose into the lower bottle. This way there is only a small gas escape much like with a forecourt LPG pump. The process is slow but can be speeded-up by gently warming the upper bottle (sunlight, warm water etc.) to create a pressure difference. Of course, as already discussed above, there are myriad opportunites to make the use of these adapters both illegal and unsafe and therein lies the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Hi Steve... But presumably you're not doing all that on a selection of Esso/BP/Morrison's/Tesco filling station forecourts, whilst on your travels/hols? :-D I can perhaps see the attraction of these adapters if someone has access to LPG tanks at work or through a work/trade contact/outlets etc But the average Motorhoming Joe/Josephine are going to be relying on refilling (or trying to) at the likes of the places I mention above.. ...and before a trip away, how many are really going to resist the temptation to just "guesstimate" and/or just stick a bit more in "while we're at it"..? :-S If they're using that much gas that the cost of it is an issue then perhaps they shouldn't really be using exchange cylinders in the first place?... (...and besides, I wouldn't trust some of 'em to put air in their tyres. (lol) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Steve928 - 2016-02-16 8:18 AM ..... I consider it legal and safe..... I met a chap whose hobby was making fireworks in his shed and although he realised there were risks, he felt that what he was doing was fundamentally safe. I don't remember him telling me it was completely legal but there were some safety rules he followed when he put on displays. He had only lost a couple of finger over the years and he hadn't hurt anyone else, so far. Risk comes in shades of grey rather than black and white and those taking the risks tend to have a different perception than those who have suffered a loss at someone else's hands. I doubt that a prosecution is likely for trying to use one of these bottle filling connectors, but if a prosecution happened then I doubt it would do much good to explain to the magistrates that you were quite sure it was legal. They'd make their own mind up about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 http://www.gasit.co.uk/leisure-gas-refillable-products/7-gas-pipes-pigtails-and-vapour-tank-accessories/on-bottle-bayonet-fillpoint-p446.html (..of cause, some may say that they are just trying to get you to buy their kit..?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 pepe63 - 2016-02-16 9:10 AM Hi Steve... But presumably you're not doing all that on a selection of Esso/BP/Morrison's/Tesco filling station forecourts, whilst on your travels/hols? :-D No, indeed not, I've no reason to ever use it in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 StuartO - 2016-02-16 9:30 AMSteve928 - 2016-02-16 8:18 AM ..... I consider it legal and safe..... I met a chap whose hobby was making fireworks in his shed and although he realised there were risks, he felt that what he was doing was fundamentally safe. I don't remember him telling me it was completely legal but there were some safety rules he followed when he put on displays. He had only lost a couple of finger over the years and he hadn't hurt anyone else, so far. Risk comes in shades of grey rather than black and white and those taking the risks tend to have a different perception than those who have suffered a loss at someone else's hands. I doubt that a prosecution is likely for trying to use one of these bottle filling connectors, but if a prosecution happened then I doubt it would do much good to explain to the magistrates that you were quite sure it was legal. They'd make their own mind up about that.Please rest assured that I have no intention to begin making fireworks in my shed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Steve928 - 2016-02-16 10:06 AM Please rest assured that I have no intention to begin making fireworks in my shed. (lol) (lol) (lol) !! (that's made me laugh!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKen1 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 To me this is just the sort of device that will get motor homers banned from re filling there gas on Garage forecourts should they catch on. I say ban them now they are unsafe. Brian K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 The usual ill informed postings about these adaptors showing little understanding as to how they are used. The procedure for connecting and filling the cylinder is exactly the same as a refillable system, so if it is dangerous, then so are the refillable systems. There are two simple caveats when using these adapters, the first being to ensure cylinder is empty which is easily determined. The second is to stop filling before you reach the 80% capacity which for a 13kg cylinder would be 24lt, so stop at 20 litre. The filling gauge is very slow moving so you should not overfill unless you fall asleep. If you are going to use an adapter then use sensibly and do not be greedy. A lot of reliance is put on the automatic cut off however they can fail so pay attention to how much you are filling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 sshortcircuit - 2016-02-16 1:34 PM The usual ill informed postings about these adaptors showing little understanding as to how they are used. Yeah..what do the likes of Gas-it know eh? (lol) ..and slight correction..."..how they should..be used.." ? Just because you may think that you use yours correctly, that doesn't mean that everyone else will do likewise... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 pepe63 - 2016-02-16 1:45 PM sshortcircuit - 2016-02-16 1:34 PM The usual ill informed postings about these adaptors showing little understanding as to how they are used. Yeah..what do the likes of Gas-it know eh? (lol) ..and slight correction..."..how they should..be used.." ? Just because you may think that you use yours correctly, that doesn't mean that everyone else will do likewise... ;-) My Caveat "If you are going to use an adapter then use sensibly and do not be greedy. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKen1 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 sshortcircuit - 2016-02-16 2:34 PM The usual ill informed postings about these adaptors showing little understanding as to how they are used. . When dangerous and illegal practices are used not having safety system built in ,do you think the garage owners are going to allow it (here in Spain Repsol are building a large LPG network at there locations ) I doubt very much they will tolerate it as its illegal, dont think when you sneak round the back to fill up nobody is watching it gets noted and I dont need to tell you what the outcome is likely to be.....Banned What was the other one " If refillables are safe so is this method just pay attention when filling" Then why do normal Diesle and Petrol pumps have an over fill cut off ...safety on the forecourt....we all get distracted occasionally.People have to be protected from themselves sometimes as common sense seems to go out of the window. Brian K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 BKen1 - 2016-02-16 3:12 PM sshortcircuit - 2016-02-16 2:34 PM The usual ill informed postings about these adaptors showing little understanding as to how they are used. . When dangerous and illegal practices are used not having safety system built in ,do you think the garage owners are going to allow it (here in Spain Repsol are building a large LPG network at there locations ) I doubt very much they will tolerate it as its illegal, dont think when you sneak round the back to fill up nobody is watching it gets noted and I dont need to tell you what the outcome is likely to be.....Banned What was the other one " If refillables are safe so is this method just pay attention when filling" Then why do normal Diesle and Petrol pumps have an over fill cut off ...safety on the forecourt....we all get distracted occasionally.People have to be protected from themselves sometimes as common sense seems to go out of the window. Brian K A typical ill-informed posting. I have re-fillables and they have paid for themselves. However, I am lucky in that I could afford to purchase them. There are many with motorhomes on a very tight budget and will purchase these adapters as a way of saving money. If they follow the correct procedure then there are no more dangers than filling any other system. If you have seen both system being filled properly then you will be able to tell where the dangers are????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 BKen1 - 2016-02-16 3:12 PM What was the other one " If refillables are safe so is this method just pay attention when filling" Then why do normal Diesle and Petrol pumps have an over fill cut off ...safety on the forecourt....we all get distracted occasionally.People have to be protected from themselves sometimes as common sense seems to go out of the window. Sorry, but I don't see how you can fairly compare filling a measured quantity of gas into a sealed cylinder via a sealed inlet to pouring petrol into an open necked fuel tank filler via an open ended nozzle? Judging by the stains on the forecourts it seems I am not alone in having washed the side of my car with petrol at times and on that basis all fuel filling should only ever take place via a sealed and leakproof inlet? No doubt it will come in due course! I do not have an adapter but I see no reason not to as long as the rules are followed and you would hardly expect those with a vested interest in you not using one to come down heavily against it. It's called self interest under the guise of health and safety. Over the years I have seen, and smelt, a few motorhomes and caravans with far more lethal home made set ups of branded bottles being connected by some very dodgy pipework and missing or perished rubber washers leaking gas from their lockers but nobody seems bothered about a gas safety check as part of a compulsory motorhome MOT? And before anyone mentions hab checks, the kind of people who take that kind of shortcut with gas are hardly likely to bother with any form of voluntary checks. My refillable bottle inlet is just inside the gas locker and if I were to use the adapter I would simply ensure the bottle is quite empty, connect the adapter to the bottle before arriving, open the locker, open the tap, fill it to the requisite litres, shut the tap and pay before driving somewhere less obvious to reconnect the pigtail and in that illegal as it may be I see no greater risk than that of correctly and gas tightly refitting an exchange bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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