George Collings Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 After careful examination of the two I have owned I believe that due to the difficulties in moulding GRP the A/S monocoque bodies are in fact two or more mouldings : Roof, and probably the sides and rear as one piece bonded together along carefully concealed in the moulding seams. This assembly is then bonded with more GRP to the marine ply 3/4 inch + thick baseboard. I am still no sure if this board is foam cored or solid. The interior is carpeted wall to wall first before the interior is fitted out. After 18 years mine need re-carpeting but I do not fancy the total rebuild to maintain originality. Internal plumbing leaks above the baseboard can fester away for along time before coming to light. Most leaks from rain are where the sealant around window or similar fittings has failed. To get a good look at the extent of the damage the rear bumper should be remove. Its much easier than it looks being retained on my Medallion by just two 5mm nuts and bolts at each end to hold it to the body moulding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Derek Uzzell - 2016-02-19 1:53 PM pepe63 - 2016-02-19 11:12 AM ...So hopefully this "rotten wood" that's "sagging down", is just limited to the cabinet work then... The title of the original inquiry here was “Rotten wood underneath MH”. The title of the same inquiry on the ASOF was “Rotten wood floor underneath motorhome” http://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/t16847-rotten-wood-floor-underneath-mh It seems from this that it’s the floor that is rotten and sagging down UNDER the motorhome, not just damaged internal cabinet work. Oh!...So by the sounds of it: and going by George's experience of them, they do sit on a separate "wood floor" base panel assembly then?.... :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 It might look a mess but radical surgery to the baseboard is possible by bonding in new with GRP. The shelving and carcases are standard materials fastened with screws. Replacing the visible frames of the cupboards to match may be more difficult as the timber (ramin) is in short supply but being hardwood may still be usable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 George Collings - 2016-02-19 5:25 PM It might look a mess but radical surgery to the baseboard is possible by bonding in new with GRP. The shelving and carcases are standard materials fastened with screws. Replacing the visible frames of the cupboards to match may be more difficult as the timber (ramin) is in short supply but being hardwood may still be usable. Absolutely right George, a heck of a lot easier to repair back to sound solid marine play than some of the cardboard and foam filled hardboard used in so many van floors as well as a solid shell of grp to work to rather than a foam filled wafer thin composite side or back panel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 The 'monocoque’ bodies fitted to certain Auto-Sleepers models have been produced historically by "Cheltenham Laminating” who also provide GRP body-shells to other motorhome manufacturers. http://www.cheltenham-laminating.co.uk/work.asp The one-piece shell in the leftmost photo is for a La Strada “Nova”, but I think Auto-Sleepers GRP bodies are moulded in two parts and then bonded together. As George suggests, it’s probably not practicable to mould a one-piece body if the motorhome’s design has a prominent overcab pokey-out bit. I don’t think there’s anything on-line showing how Auto-Sleepers monocoque bodies are built, but the videos on the following link may be of interest http://www.wingamm.com/en/articles/Monocoque-cabin-in-fibreglass_46.htm It’s worth noting that Wingamm’s unique floor construction is genuinely rot-proof http://www.wingamm.com/en/articles/Floor-Comfort-System_74.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 there are some interesting materials available now. A few years back I was shown a woven material very much like an old fashioned string vest and just as stiff. It was intended bonded to a quite flexible sub 1mm thick GRP sheet when it became so stiff that barely any movement could be obtained with both hands. We have all seen those dramatic pictures of F! cars crashing at 200 mph with the drivers emerging almost unscathed and the basic chassis is constructed of bonded cellular materials. Unfortunately development costs mean motorcaravans will probably built on LGV bases for the foreseeable future. Once hybrid versions with large fast rechargeable batteries are introduced mainly in the quest for reduced emissions and fuel economy there could be some very interesting developments. Good reception on the old crystal ball tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatpiemassive Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 http://i1038.photobucket.com/albums/a467/dbruce1967/image_zpsupc0bssk.jpeg I hope you are able to see theses pictures in link to photo bucket We bought it off someone on the Autosleeper forum and unfortunately We didn't get any service history with the van as they said they didn't get any, obviously wished we would have checked them corners and crevices out now!!! There was no smell of damp tho and we had a hab check done and all damp readings were below 13. I shall let you know what caused it soon as we can get it to the A/S service centre in March. Thanks for looking and your replies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 The pics show a mess but difficult to understand. Was the main area of rotten wood the inside of the back wall. A/S bond in reinforcing ply but its usually covered in GRP. Suggest a few more taken a little further out to show any external framing would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I agree, it is impossible to relate the damage to the context of the rest of the van and it's structure from those close ups. If you could zoom out and show a wider area that should show the extent of the spread and from that a viable plan for repair should be possible and if there are there any shots from inside the van they too might help put it all in perspective. Whatever the damage I have little doubt that as long as most of the floor is sound, the GRP body is sound, and the chassis members are sound a competent DIYer could rebuild it with a little ingenuity. Even 1" marine ply which is a handful to work with in a confined space can be fabricated by laminating 2 x half inch marine ply using something like good old fashioned Cascamite which if it is good enough for sea going boats is plenty good enough for a motorhome repair. Bonding that to GRP with chopped strand matting and polyester or epoxy resin is again time consuming but not technically difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I'm intrigued by the material that seems to have faced the ply under the van. It looks like metal, from the way it has buckled. I would have though a GRP facing would have remained more rigid. It seems to suggest that the water got into the ply at an edge, or from above under the sink, and was then trapped by whatever that sheet is, keeping the ply permanently wet. I'm surprised that proper, fully resin bonder, marine ply would decompose as it seems to have done. It is quite a mess, but to me has more the appearance of decomposing laminboard than of ply. I agree that it should be repairable, but it will need the whole kitchen block stripping out for access, and a few half decent power tools like a router and a jigsaw for starters. Be interesting to hear what Auto-Sleepers make of it in March. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I have a feeling that the mutterings at Willersly will include words such as bodger and bleeding get the camera, museum and black and perhaps mortgage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Mark’s photos of the damage seem clear enough to me. Photos 2 and 5 show shreds of plywood lying on the ground (next to a couple of concrete slabs) having detached from the underside of the motorhome’s floor above. The other photos are of the underside of the floor itself and give a good idea of the extent of the damage. The loose material hanging down will be a layer of ‘underseal’, which may have been applied by Auto-Sleepers when the motorhome was built back in 1995 or (much more likely) was applied later. As most people will be aware, traditional underseal applied to a car’s metal underside can trap water and lead to major rusting. Applying it to the underside of a motorhome’s wooden floor is asking for trouble as, although it may protect against water entering the floor from below, underseal will prevent any water entering the floor from above from draining/drying out. Use of underseal is also a time-honoured ploy for disguising damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 A/S practice in that era was to support the floor aft of the vehicle chassis with fabricated heavy gauge galvanised steel sheet. No sign of anything like that although some areas oft the pic could be concrete. Derek must be on higher plane of photographic interpretation than me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malo37 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 If its rotten it is absolutely not marine ply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Malo37 - 2016-02-21 4:54 PM If its rotten it is absolutely not marine ply. Sorry but you are mistaken - I've seen and worked on enough boats to know that marine ply does rot! The difference bewteen the various grades of plywood is primarily the adhesive used in making it and sometimes the quality of the timber used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I would have said so too, but the standard for marine ply is not mandatory, and it is produced all around the world. What I knew as marine ply was resin bonded under pressure to fully impregnate durable hardwood plies, resulting in an almost glazed surface. It was very dense, very expensive, and I think almost completely rot proof. All that is now required is that it is of gap free, unblemished, durable hardwood plies bonded together with WBP adhesive. But, that is only for marine ply verified as complying with BS1088. Other ply, not claiming to be to BS1088, can also be called "marine" (the term is generic, not a guaranty of any particular quality), and can be legally sold as such here and elsewhere. It may be of lower quality than BS1088 marine ply. What is actually in the floor of that van will depend entirely on what was specified by the buyer, and whether what was supplied and installed actually met the specification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Brian Kirby - 2016-02-21 5:34 PM What is actually in the floor of that van will depend entirely on what was specified by the buyer, and whether what was supplied and installed actually met the specification. I take it that by buyer you mean A/Ss materials quality control and components buyer and I would be very surprised if their controls were not pretty tight? I too would consider pure marine ply a bit of an overkill as WBP should be more than adequate for the job, but if A/S say marine ply then I for one would not doubt them. Wood rots - all wood rots - the only difference is that harder woods take longer to disintegrate than softer wood regardless of the adhesives or resins used to hold them together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Plywood durability is a function of the rot resistance of the timber the number of layers and the quality of the glueline. The best is near everlasting and the worst rot food. I have seen some EX grade softwoods stand up well unprotected for many months and other what looked like marine grade turn to shredded wheat in weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Tracker - 2016-02-21 5:41 PM Brian Kirby - 2016-02-21 5:34 PM What is actually in the floor of that van will depend entirely on what was specified by the buyer, and whether what was supplied and installed actually met the specification. I take it that by buyer you mean A/Ss materials quality control and components buyer and I would be very surprised if their controls were not pretty tight? I too would consider pure marine ply a bit of an overkill as WBP should be more than adequate for the job, but if A/S say marine ply then I for one would not doubt them. Wood rots - all wood rots - the only difference is that harder woods take longer to disintegrate than softer wood regardless of the adhesives or resins used to hold them together. I’m doubtful that Auto-Sleepers records are such that they could say with any confidence exactly what quality of wood would have been used in the floors of their 1995 motorhomes, but it definitely won’t be the pressure-treated resin-impregnated material Brian mentions. As I said earlier, this is also being discussed on the ASOF and (after the photos of the damage had been posted there) an ASOF member (John M) yesterday advised as follows: "That looks exactly the same as our problem. It came from weeping tap connectors which then had seeped back down through the hole in the floor and then spread through the ply by capillary action. I had to completely dismantle the sink/cooker area rip out the contaminated area plus a few extra inches, fabricate chassis extensions to compensate for any weakness in the repaired floor and then rebuild it all. Oh and fit proper water connectors. Took me about a week / 30 hours of work. And I have a lot of tools ! I'm sorry to say that what you are looking at has no easy/quick/cheap fix." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Derek Uzzell - 2016-02-22 9:16 AM I'm sorry to say that what you are looking at has no easy/quick/cheap fix. Yes indeed, but it is quite doable by anyone with decent diy abilities, a modicum of logic and common sense, and a bit of ingenuity so it need not cost the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Tracker - 2016-02-22 9:24 AM Derek Uzzell - 2016-02-22 9:16 AM I'm sorry to say that what you are looking at has no easy/quick/cheap fix. Yes indeed, but it is quite doable by anyone with decent diy abilities, a modicum of logic and common sense, and a bit of ingenuity so it need not cost the earth. You seem to have quoted me as saying "I'm sorry to say that what you are looking at has no easy/quick/cheap fix.” In fact, if you look more closely at my posting from which you’ve extracted the sentence or read the ASOF thread I gave a link to earlier in this discussion, you’ll appreciate that the warning advice about there being no easy/quick/cheap fix comes from an ASOF member. For me, with my universally-acknowledged extraordinary DIY skills, fixing a motorhome’s rotten floor would obviously be child’s play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatpiemassive Posted February 22, 2016 Author Share Posted February 22, 2016 Hi all, just like to say, Derek has it spot on with the photos. Also, I haven't a hope in hell of being able to rebuild that floor myself, which brings me to a question....does anyone know roughly how much it might cost to get it done professionally? I'm more than a little concerned that we have already spent hundreds of pounds on this van with one thing and another going wrong with it and we only bought it in September! Will it be throwing good money after bad to get this fixed or am I asking how long is a piece of string!!!! Many thanks :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 If you otherwise like the van and would go on using it for years to come it is well worth repairing in my view, if only because it is worth very little as it stands. The alternative is to cut and run and sell it as it is and I have no doubt that it would soon sell to an enthusiast at the right price. If I were younger and needier I would certainly grab the chance to take it on! Are there any boat repairers local to you as they would likely have the skills needed to do this job and whilst I truly appreciate how daunting it is to you it really is quite doable by those with the know how. Have A/S been able to give you an indication of cost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 It seems like the ASOF member John M and I are reading from the same script. I refer this honorable house to my earlier answer posted 17 February 2016 10:06 PM Ooops, The current political hothouse atmosphere is getting to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Meatpiemassive - 2016-02-22 7:13 PM Hi all, just like to say, Derek has it spot on with the photos. Also, I haven't a hope in hell of being able to rebuild that floor myself, which brings me to a question....does anyone know roughly how much it might cost to get it done professionally? I'm more than a little concerned that we have already spent hundreds of pounds on this van with one thing and another going wrong with it and we only bought it in September! Will it be throwing good money after bad to get this fixed or am I asking how long is a piece of string!!!! Many thanks :'( Can't begin to say how much, it will depend on who does it, and what their hourly rate is. However, the ply won't be the major cost, that will be for the labour. If you feel you can't tackle the floor repair yourself, I would suggest that you dismantle as much as possible of the kitchen before you deliver the van for the floor to be repaired. I'm not familiar with A-S, but it has been stated above that the kitchen block is screwed together, and that has been my experience of the fitted furniture in other vans. If you work methodically, saving all screws and screw covers, jointing plates etc, and making rough sketches or taking photos as you go, you should only need a cross-head (I'm guessing) screwdriver to remove pretty much everything. The hob/cooker, with its gas connections, and likewise possibly the fridge, are the complicated bits. Possibly worth paying someone to remove them first, before starting to unscrew the carcassing yourself. Sink probably held in place with clips from beneath. Disconnecting waste connection can probably be done by removing the screw in the centre of the waste strainer, which usually seems to release the tiny "trap" complete with waste pipe below. Tap connectors may only require removal of two locking pins in the base of the tap itself, or you may have to loosen jubilee clips and pull the flexible pipes free. Access will be the biggest fag with this, they are usually cramped and awkward places to reach. Then, after the floor is done, just reassemble in reverse order. :-) But seriously, taken a step at a time, with records as you go, not too difficult, even if it seems a bit daunting. Otherwise, you'll end up paying someone else for the considerable amount of time dismantling and reassembling will take. That way, at least you'll only be paying for the skilled bits. The skill required isn't really that elevated, but familiarity with the tools required will give a better result. Probably not a job for a first attempt at DIY carpentry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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