Weights and licences

[ianhugh]

My wife and I are total novices when it comes to using motorhomes, however we have talked about getting one for years. A couple of years ago we visited some dealers and went to a show and decided what we wanted – rear lounge, six sleeping berth, and six travelling seats. We have three children and four grandchildren with another two due within weeks and had always wanted to take them and also to let them use it themselves. So, as I retired last December, we decided then the time was right to buy one.

 

So, armed with list of possibilities we went out one day in January, and decided on a Rollerteam Autoroller 746, two year old, 5000 miles and an automatic to suit my wife. We paid a holding deposit and I went back four days later for a test drive on my own and decided that this was good enough to buy, but wanted my wife just to see it again before we committed to this expense. We both went the following Saturday and signed on the dotted line.

 

There were some things needing to be done, like a dividing curtain, new flooring, different number plates, etc., so we agreed on a date two weeks later. In between times, the local caravan and motorhome show was on and the dealer asked if we could delay picking our van up as they were very busy. We agreed and were asked to pick it up two days later than first agreed. On the day and at the time advised, we duly turned up and were told it wasn’t ready. We were asked to come back in and hour or so and this we did, only to find it still wasn’t ready! So, at about 4.15ish, we were finally told it was ready for us and the young salesman did an extremely quick handover as he was going out to the cinema with his friend.

 

Undaunted, we took our van away. This was a Friday evening and we had booked into a site over the next two days. Those two days were a steep learning curve and if it hadn’t been for the warden on duty at the site, we would have been lost. However, we got through it and went away for another long weekend two weeks later, still learning but still ok with everything. Until we decided to check the travel seat belts because we have friends coming with us in three weeks time.

 

We could only find five belts – two three point, one lap, and the two up front. Calamity, as we always wanted the six for our family to go with us in as great a number as possible. I contacted the dealer and spoke to the service manager who told me it must have been down rated by the previous owner, but they could fit another belt no problem. This I thought was fine, but then he started on about weights and licences! He said only folk who had their licence prior to some date in 1998 could drive vehicles over 3500kg and if he put in this belt the vehicle would be rated at 3650kg meaning none of our children could drive it. Totally taken aback, I didn’t know what to say, but then agreed for them to fit the extra belt next week – but do I want it?

 

My problem is we really like our new home but would not have bought it if we had known about this issue. The dealer sold it as six travelling seats and never mentioned anything about licences. Are they fulfilling their duty by fitting this extra belt and was it down to me to know about this before I bought it.

 

[PJay]

our Van is a 5 berth, but we only have 4 belts. I believe that it may not be legal to retro fit seats belts, BUt some one will come along who does know the legalities. Also as you have found out, about your family being unable to drive over 3500. You also will not be able to once reaching 70, without a medical.

 

Did you look into the whys and wherefores before buying? Dealers are not going to tell you these things, if it stops the sale.

Also what about payload, for 6 people? I would think that a 6 berth van ought to be over 3500, to take 6 people and all the luggage etc?

PJay

Bye the welcome to the forum. maybe you should have asked on here prior to purchasing any van.

[ianhugh]

Hi P Jay, I know about the licence situation at seventy, wasn't concerned about that. I am annoyed that the dealership did not mention anything about licences, but agree, some dealerships just want sales and I didn't check it myself, so my fault. However, they sold it as a six belted vehicle, regardless of the weight and it clearly isn't. Open question to all = do I have any comeback with the dealer?

[PJay]

Ian,

i did not mean to sound hard on you.

Question, Did they sell it/ advertise it, as 6 berth, or 6 belts?As I said, ours from new, was sold as 5 berth, but only 4 belts. i believe that on backward facing seats, you can sit, without belts, but not a good idea, IMO

And small children would need to be able fit the child seats/booster, and the width of the seats is not as wide as the back of a car !.

I expect you will get the "Experts" who do give good advice on this forum, along later

PJay

[Brian Kirby]

On the face of it, it would seem you may have a case against the dealer for misrepresenting, or mis-selling, the van. However, you need proper legal advice as this seems more than a simple yes/no case. Home, van, or car insurance with legal advice included? Otherwise, try Citizens' Advice as a first step.

[Billggski]

Two things to check, the metal plate under the bonnet that gives you the maximum weight limits.

Total, front axle, rear axle and weight if towing.

Then take it to a weighbridge with a full load, ready to travel, about £7 for both axles and total, and calculate the difference.

Then you will know your true situation.

Seat belts can be retro fitted, but need to be proper approved ones, their could have been fixing points already fitted.

[PJay]

Brian Kirby - 2016-03-11 6:49 PM

 

On the face of it, it would seem you may have a case against the dealer for misrepresenting, or mis-selling, the van. However, you need proper legal advice as this seems more than a simple yes/no case. Home, van, or car insurance with legal advice included? Otherwise, try Citizens' Advice as a first step.

 

Brian, Poster lives in Scotland, the laws are different up there, so certainly a solicitors advice.

PJay

[colin]

Whilst it would make an interesting bun fight, what would you do if you won your case?

A six berth van is always going to be heavy, I've not checked,but I would guess any van of that capacity would need to be over 3500kg to be of any use, so would you give up on having a van?

p.s. Your children can get 7500kg licence if they want to take the training and test.

[Keithl]

OR...

 

Keep it at 3,500 kg so all the family can drive it and then if extra passengers are required get them to follow in a car. I know this is not the most ideal solution but would certainly be the simplest to implement.

 

And this would give proper seats suitable for child seats without the worry of will a child seat be safe in the MH.

 

Keith.

[ianhugh]

yes advertised as six berth with four belted travelling seats in the double dinette. Their words. I have a copy of their advert. I'm going to see them on Tuesday supposedly to get this other belt fitted, but not sure now that I will.

[ianhugh]

My wife and I are happy with the van apart from this issue, so don't particularly want to lose it or get involved in as you put it 'a bun fight'! I'm thinking we keep the five travelling seat scenario but let them know how I feel about the situation when I see them on Tuesday.

[Tony Jones]

I'd be surprised if fitting the sixth belt automatically meant an upgrade to the weight. AFAIK the number of belts /seats doesn't come into those rules until you get above 8.

Unless of course the payload is so tight that the weight of the belt itself pushes it over 3500, in which case the van is useless as a 3500 - you couldn't even carry a toothbrush each!

[Tony Jones]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound flippant.

I actually get really cross with dealers about this issue. If they're selling a vehicle as a holiday home for six people (which by implication they are, if it has 6 beds), THEY should tell you, without you asking, if some of those people can't legally travel in it, or if it can't legally carry their reasonable kit, or if there are restrictions on who can drive it.

In your position I'd reject it under SoG Act.

But converters too really need to come up with some new ideas, as fewer people have C1/D1 licences!

[ianhugh]

Hi Keith. Yes this what we are thinking would probably be the best option. Keep it at 3500 and let the family drive it if they want without thinking about their licence. Thanks.

[ianhugh]

Hi Tony. I believe there should be responsibility on behalf of the dealer to tell a purchaser of this sort of thing. I told him a number of times about us being total novices and needing to have everything explained to us. They sold it as six travelling which if you do check the manufacturers detail, and I didn't, is classed as 3650kg, but the V5C shows it as 3500kg which only allows for five travelling. They have said they will fit the other belt, and that probably is all they need to do legally. Thanks

[Derek Uzzell]

Ianhugh

 

Nowadays the specification of a new motorhome includes a defined number of ‘designated travel seats’ (ie. seats with safety belts). There is also a formula used to calculate the number of people (+ their luggage) that can be carried compared with the motorhome’s defined payload.

 

This link shows the specification of the 2016 Auto-Roller 746, but I think a 2014 version will have been much the same.

 

http://www.rollerteammotorhomes.co.uk/motorhomes/auto-roller/746

 

It will be seen that the model has 6 sleeping-berths, but the number of designated travel seats is 5 when the motorhome is marketed with a maximum technically permissible weight (MTPW) of 3500kg, and 6 when the motorhome is marketed with an MTPM of 3650kg.

 

(I notice that the "Weight unladen in running conditions” figure rises from 3075kg when the MTPM is 3500kg to 3140kg when the MTPM is 3650kg - which suggests that there may be more to the 6-travel-seat version than just an extra safety-belt.)

 

It’s far more liklely that your Auto-Roller 746 has always had an MTPM of 3500kg and always had 5 belted travel seats than the service manager’s suggestion that it originally had an MTPM of 3650kg and 6 belted seats and the previous owner chose to have the vehicle ‘down-plated’ to 3500kg and one of the belts removed. (Come onnnnn!!!)

 

Your motorhome will have European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA) which makes this sort of issue a nest of worms. I’m very wary of the idea that (within the UK at least) down-plating a 3650kg MTPM motorhome with 6 designated travel seats to an MTPM of 3500kg demands that one of the designated travel seats must be ‘de-designated’ and its belt removed. I’m similarly wary of the suggestion that fitting an extra belt demands that a 3500kg MPTM motorhome have that MPTM figure increased. Then there’s the question of if a safety-belt is added to the seat of a motorhome with ECWVTA and, say, 5 designated travel seats, can the ‘new’ safety-belted seat be considered to have become a legal designated travel seat?

 

As your motorhome was advertised as having 4 belted seats in the double dinette I suggest you demand that an extra belt be fitted at no cost to you. I don’t believe adding the extra belt would force you - as the now owner of the motorhome - to have the vehicle uprated above its present 3500kg MTPM, but you could always remove the extra belt if you felt that arguent had merit. A bird in the hand - if you have the belt fitted you can take it off later: if you don’t you can’t.

 

How seat-belt regulations apply to motorhomes is not straightforward. UK regulations do not prevent you from carrying more than 5 people when travelling merely because your motorhome’s V5C shows an MTPM of 3500kg, but it would be inadvisable (because there are only 5 safety-belts at present) and further complicated when chidren are to be carried. I'm not going to attempt a comprehensive explanation as it’s better if you browse through the relevant entries listed here:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=designated+travel+seats

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

PJay - 2016-03-11 6:52 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2016-03-11 6:49 PM

 

On the face of it, it would seem you may have a case against the dealer for misrepresenting, or mis-selling, the van. However, you need proper legal advice as this seems more than a simple yes/no case. Home, van, or car insurance with legal advice included? Otherwise, try Citizens' Advice as a first step.

 

Brian, Poster lives in Scotland, the laws are different up there, so certainly a solicitors advice.

PJay

My comment, in haste, was on the understanding that the OP's following statement is correct "The dealer sold it as six travelling seats and never mentioned anything about licences. ................."

 

If, as has been suggested, it was sold as having six berths, and the poster assumed this meant it would have six belted seats (a not unreasonable assumption), and the seller made no mention of the fact that the sixth berth was not matched by a seat, or that adding the extra belt would require an upgrade to 3,650kg MAM (which is what Autoroller say in their technical details for the 746), then there may be a legal challenge to the purchase. What that challenge might amount to under Scottish law I don't know, which is why I think legal advice should be taken.

 

However, it is unclear to me whether the OP and his wife both have licences to drive at 3,650kg, although it is quite clear their children do not.

 

Derek's post above raises the remaining points worth making, except perhaps this one. If the added weight of the sixth seat belt is indeed 65kg, I would say:

a) there is a substantial support frame required (hardly surprising) - that will require considerable dismantling and reassembly inside the van, and

b) it will be a very expensive seat belt!

 

I would also say that the result is likely to be a six berth motorhome with a payload, at 3,500kg MAM, of just 360kg, and that is without any options that may have been added to the basic spec. Awning, possibly?

 

Children and grandchildren suggests to me that that the "children" are fully grown adults, so OP + wife + children and grandchildren, suggests 4 adults + two children. Driver deemed included in MIRO, leaves 3 x (say) 75 kg per adult + 2 x (say) 50 kg for the children = (say) 350kg. So, with six belts and no increase in MAM, he would be left with a payload of just 10kg!

 

Even without the sixth seatbelt this would only rise to 75kg - plus the weight of one adult or child - but then who stays at home?. Simply put, IMO, this van is unworkable on grounds of payload for 5, and completely unworkable for 6 - unless we are dealing with a family of stick insects who only want to use it for long weekends, or unless it transports the OP and his wife and, as Keith suggests, the family follow in a car. However, none of these outcomes seem to match the OP's reason for buying the van.

 

It seems clear from the OP's post that use for six was discussed with the dealer - though he may by now have forgotten that conversation. So, proof becomes a potential problem. My own view, for what it is worth, is that this is the wrong van for the OP and he needs to get rid of it at the lowest cost to him that he can achieve. Whether, under Scottish law, he can claim his contract to buy void, on grounds of fundamental mistake, or that the van was missold, or misrepresented to him as suitable for his needs, I have no idea - but I think that is where he needs to start with his legal advice.

 

As a footnote, I would also add that I think what he was looking for does not, in reality, exist, and this sad saga rather proves it. I think that is the advice the dealer should have given him at the outset. Six berth vans with an MAM of 3,500kg, if used for transporting transport six occupants, simply do not work. Neither do they, IMO, at an MAM of 3,650kg. To carry six and have sufficient room within, while having a realistic payload, I think one needs to be looking at an MAM of 4,000kg or more. They exist, but probably not used, and with automatic transmissions.

 

In terms of payload we add - for just two of us - 554kg of clothes, passenger, food, water, fuel, books, camping gear, etc etc, admittedly for trips of 8 - 10 weeks. I'm not claiming we are typical, just trying to illustrate that for 4 adults plus two children (assumed) a payload of 500kg would be tight, and I would expect 700kg to be more realistic. To quote an old adage - a quart won't go into a pint pot!

 

I apologise to the OP for being so negative about his plans, but I really think he needs to reappraise them in the light of his present experience. He can make what he has work, but only if he compromises heavily. He can switch to an alternative vehicle, but he will still have to make compromises over who can drive, or who can be carried and, if he can't legally get out of where he is cheaply, the switch may prove costly.

[Keithl]

Ian,

 

Caravan Guard have just published an on-line article about six berth MH's...

 

http://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/take-six-family-friendly-six-berth-motorhomes-2016-10151

 

I haven't read it yet but it may have some useful info in.

 

Keith.