Steve928 Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 .. with the imminent demise of the 3 litre powerplant? Although it seems likely that the 2.3 lump will match the power output of its c. 700cc larger stablemate the loss of that basic capacity and particularly 50kg over the driven wheels will surely have a detrimental effect on a chassis that was always marginal on traction. A friend had a Lunar Goldstar 900 but sold it because he could only get out of his driveway on dry days, if the ground was wet it would sit and spin it wheels, and he got stuck on the (moderate) climb up to the Cairngorm ski centre with insufficent traction to pull 5 tons out of a wet hairpin. They're not on my shopping list anyway but it would be interesting to hear the views of those who run such vans as to whether they would consider buying such a machine when all that's available is the 'little' 2.3 motor? Perhaps the converters will need to add lead ballast to the front to compensate for the lighter power unit.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tall_Mike Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 Good question - We have had big problems with our Ducato with getting "stuck" big or small vans - grip is marginal on anything but tarmac or hard standing and it becomes almost a sport getting off some the rally sites we have been to. After a while it ceases to be fun and becomes tiresome. Having one's pride and joy towed out of a field on it's second outing didn't do it for me, Watching the Motorhome show they mentioned some places in France where you could take your Fiat Ducato and have it converted to 4wd, I could imagine that the cost would be hideous with the differentials, drive shafts etc but was wondering if anyone knows about this? The show had a concept PVC which was 4Wd - dressed up like a Rally Sprint vehicle with winch etc which looked rather cool if a little over the top for a rally in a field in Berkshire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevina Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 The loss of traction in larger vans and the further loss of 50kg in the engine bay is the main reason we have shelved an upgrade to a 8m van. We currently have a 7.5m single rear wheel van and drive that close to the 1850kg front axle maximum (just a little more on the rear). As we spend 2 months skiing, another 2 months in varied topography and are fairly adventurous we already reach the limits of traction from time to time. We recently looked at 8m vans but, although they have a higher front axle capacity, I can't see that they could be loaded much more than we currently have and they would also have more "drag" from the extra weight on the rear wheels. Reading posts on forums seems to bear this out, a tag axle would make this worse of course. RWD options are pretty limited and expensive. Kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 I have often wondered about this subject. On the one hand, I have found RWD panel vans such as Sprinters and Iveco Daily's to be utterly hopeless if not dangerous in icy or muddy conditions unless they had twin rear wheels, and even then with a light load they were pretty useless too. FWD gives more security up to a point and then with a huge body behind it that is not loaded particularly towards the front, these too become far from ideal. The 2.3 engine is about the same weight as the old 2.8, and that was considered OK so i don't see that as an issue going forwards. I think that there is a much more critical issue to consider though... Any large conversion should be based on the Maxi chassis. For a small overall weight penalty this allows considerably higher front (and rear) axle loads. The front rises from 1850kg to 2100kg and this allows the vehicle designers to place more of the weight forwards. This will improve traction and driveability. I have seen far too many vehicles based on standard 3500kg (or lower) platforms and even up-plated ones that are not on the stronger chassis with the larger wheels/tyres, brakes and tougher suspension that the Maxi gets. No other manufacturer offers a platform with the kind of axle loads that Fiat offer. It should not be at a great cost either! The UK list price for changing up from a 3500kg to 3500kg Maxi is only £400 and from a 3500kg Maxi to a 4000kg Maxi is £500. Don't get me wrong, the whole concept of such a large front wheel drive vehicle being driven up mountain passes and over ploughed fields is fairly absurd but if you have to do it; you need to start with the right platform and be careful about weight distribution from the outset. I think that any converter that ignores this is irresponsible. Just my thoughts..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 It's not just tag axles that suffer ;-) ......... When I drove my old mans Hymer back from Spain a few years ago, that struggled for grip up some hills *-) ......... RWD is the way forward :D ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevina Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 I do think that our current, almost 50/50, weight distribution is about optimum from this little experience. In january we drove out of an Austrian village up towards a ski lift on a (thankfully quiet) minor road covered in hard compressed snow. The road started to steepen and I should have stopped to put the chains on there but it was only a few hunded metres until it levelled out again so I kept going. I lost momentum about 10m short so stopped to put the chains on, handbrake on, engine off and in gear. As I was laying out the chains the van just broke away and started sliding backwards down the road! My wifes face was a picture, I'm sure mine was too. It slid about 30m and slowed to a stop in the roadside mound of snow with no damage. The fact that I had drive traction up to the point where all four locked-wheels didn't have grip could only be due to the slight momentum we carried up the slope. Would rwd have helped? We would certainly never have got anywhere near that point on a 8m+ tag. Anyway, lesson learned, don't get too cocky and put the chains on earlier. Kev ps Winter Tyres fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 I have had Tag Axle Motorhomes for nearly 7 years now and have had minimal problems off road. Certainly no worse than other M/homes on the same field. In fact the worst one I had was a sub 6 metre Elddis Autoquest. It would spin out on grass if a small white cloud appeared in an otherwise blue sky. Tyre selection is important. The Elddis (brand new) came fitted with Michelin XC Camping Tyres which were utter rubbish for grip on damp grass, never mind soft ground. My last van and the present one has Michelin Agilis Camping, rated as M & S Tyres and they are vastly better. We never use Club Sites, mainly THS, CS and Wilding. In all that time, I can count on one hand the number of times I could not simply drive off the field. All I needed to get going was my bread trays and rubber mats. Problem solved apart from one occasion when I needed a tow ...... but then it was so bad, a Tractor was called in and even had to tow the Caravans off as well. The 4 x 4 towcars were also getting bogged down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvin marvin Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 Ultimately, that big scrapyard in the sky, but most likely next to a railway line. Each to their own, but why anyone wants one beats me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 When stopped on packed ice or snow bear in mind that the pressure of the tyre plus their heat tends to melt the water they are standing on after a short time and the extra lubrication reduces the friction below that needed to hold the vehicle on the slope. Its worse if they are left with the engine running as the slight vibration helps the tyre unstick. I believe the same principle applies to ice skates . I remember back in the winter of 63 driving a 5 tonner when i was held up on packed snow on a slight gradient . Drivers were out helping push vehicles as did I leaving the engine running with handbrake on. On return the driver of the vehicle behind had th palm of his hand against the back of the truck. I asked why so he took his hand away and slowly it slid downhill. Only the lightest touch was all that was needed to stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 Tall_Mike - 2016-04-06 9:53 AM ...Watching the Motorhome show they mentioned some places in France where you could take your Fiat Ducato and have it converted to 4wd, I could imagine that the cost would be hideous with the differentials, drive shafts etc but was wondering if anyone knows about this?... The company that carries out 4x4 conversions is almost certainly “DANGEL” based in Alsace. The cost for a Ducato apparently ranges from 7390€ to 10840€ according to the specification chosen. http://www.dangel.com/en/dangel-0 Incidentally, there is no such animal as a ‘tag-axle’ Ducato. The only recent European-built motorhomes with a tag-axle configuration are Mercedes Sprinter-based using an Al-Ko chassis. http://www.lemondeducampingcar.fr/actualite/infos/chassis-mercedes-al-ko.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 Derek Uzzell - 2016-04-06 2:15 PM Tall_Mike - 2016-04-06 9:53 AM ...Watching the Motorhome show they mentioned some places in France where you could take your Fiat Ducato and have it converted to 4wd, I could imagine that the cost would be hideous with the differentials, drive shafts etc but was wondering if anyone knows about this?... The company that carries out 4x4 conversions is almost certainly “DANGEL” based in Alsace. The cost for a Ducato apparently ranges from 7390€ to 10840€ according to the specification chosen. http://www.dangel.com/en/dangel-0 Incidentally, there is no such animal as a ‘tag-axle’ Ducato. The only recent European-built motorhomes with a tag-axle configuration are Mercedes Sprinter-based using an Al-Ko chassis. http://www.lemondeducampingcar.fr/actualite/infos/chassis-mercedes-al-ko.html Some older Hymers were Tag Axles (of sorts). The front pair of rear wheels were driven by a propshaft. I believe that a member on here has one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted April 6, 2016 Author Share Posted April 6, 2016 Derek Uzzell - 2016-04-06 2:15 PM Incidentally, there is no such animal as a ‘tag-axle’ Ducato. What term should we be using to describe correctly the familiar FWD Ducato with a pair of Al-Ko trailing axles please Derek? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 I think it's a relic of my early motoring days that makes me think that cubic capacity is a measure of power. Defenders have gone from 2.5 to 2.4 to 2.2 litres whilst gradually increasing bhp and torque. The 3 litre is now superfluous and the extra 50k payload is a positive, not a negative. It will make very little difference in a 4ton + vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 Steve928 - 2016-04-06 4:19 PM Derek Uzzell - 2016-04-06 2:15 PM Incidentally, there is no such animal as a ‘tag-axle’ Ducato. What term should we be using to describe correctly the familiar FWD Ducato with a pair of Al-Ko trailing axles please Derek? The answer is that it is a 'TANDEM Axle'. Quote from AL-KO website... http://www.al-ko.co.uk/pages/introduction-8.html A TAG axle is only correct when it is a dead axle behind a driven axle. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 George Collings - 2016-04-06 2:11 PM When stopped on packed ice or snow bear in mind that the pressure of the tyre plus their heat tends to melt the water they are standing on after a short time and the extra lubrication reduces the friction below that needed to hold the vehicle on the slope. Its worse if they are left with the engine running as the slight vibration helps the tyre unstick. I believe the same principle applies to ice skates . I remember back in the winter of 63 driving a 5 tonner when i was held up on packed snow on a slight gradient . Drivers were out helping push vehicles as did I leaving the engine running with handbrake on. On return the driver of the vehicle behind had th palm of his hand against the back of the truck. I asked why so he took his hand away and slowly it slid downhill. Only the lightest touch was all that was needed to stop it. The lesson from this is that when you are on packed snow or ice you should drive fast so that the ice does not have time to melt and you have more grip. I once heard a Scandinavian rally driver explain this in an interview. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevina Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 George Collings - 2016-04-06 2:11 PM When stopped on packed ice or snow bear in mind that the pressure of the tyre plus their heat tends to melt the water they are standing on after a short time and the extra lubrication reduces the friction below that needed to hold the vehicle on the slope. Its worse if they are left with the engine running as the slight vibration helps the tyre unstick. I believe the same principle applies to ice skates . I remember back in the winter of 63 driving a 5 tonner when i was held up on packed snow on a slight gradient . Drivers were out helping push vehicles as did I leaving the engine running with handbrake on. On return the driver of the vehicle behind had th palm of his hand against the back of the truck. I asked why so he took his hand away and slowly it slid downhill. Only the lightest touch was all that was needed to stop it. Good Point, thanks. If we encounter similar conditions in the future I'll get the wheel chocks out first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted April 6, 2016 Author Share Posted April 6, 2016 Keithl - 2016-04-06 4:47 PM Steve928 - 2016-04-06 4:19 PM Derek Uzzell - 2016-04-06 2:15 PM Incidentally, there is no such animal as a ‘tag-axle’ Ducato. What term should we be using to describe correctly the familiar FWD Ducato with a pair of Al-Ko trailing axles please Derek? The answer is that it is a 'TANDEM Axle'. Quote from AL-KO website... http://www.al-ko.co.uk/pages/introduction-8.html A TAG axle is only correct when it is a dead axle behind a driven axle. Keith. Thanks Keith, I see. Tag axle, although incorrect, seems to be in common use though e.g. http://www.southdownsmotorhomecentre.co.uk/catalogsearch/result/index/?dir=asc&order=rank&q=tag+axle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 Apparently no one knows what "tag" stands for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 Eleven years ago... http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Tag-axle-/1888/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldi Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Morning folks, The words tag axle come from the time when HGV tucks were added an extra axle on the back by adding an extra chassis length thus increasing payload and reducing VED at the same time. The big converters of these were Drinkwater engineering of Lancashire an offshoot of this is the uprating specialists which many motorhomers now use. norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 I’m not sure when the term “tag axle” began to be used (it was certainly being used in the 1970s) but the principle goes way back (see attached photo). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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