Patcharoonie Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Hi everyone, just wondering if anyone out there can comment on the Fiat 2.3 (2007) engine. Do you feel it's strong enough in the large motorhomes? I plan to purchase a 6.9 mtr Rapido with a 3500 GVW. I also have an option on the same van but with a Merc 3.0ltr auto. Our preference is the Fiat 2.3 as its a local van but just wondering if anyone has feedback on the 2.3 and whether it pulls ok. We plan to go to France in the summer and tow our motorbike which will be around 1,000 kgs incl the trailer. thanks guys, any comments much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvin marvin Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 We have a Hymer on a Fiat 3.0 ltr which pulls our 7m van like a dream. I certain!y believe you can't beat getting as much oomph as you can. As the yanks say, you can't beat cubic inches. Personal choice as ever will rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caddies104 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Hi We have the 2.3 ltr diesel on a 13 plate (3650kg) and plenty big enough, 29mpg.. However if towing another tonne is another question... Not sure what that would do.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 The Fiat at 2007 will most likely be the facelifted X2/50 model. If so it may suffer from 'Jeddergate' so be very careful to trst drive including reversing up a STEEP incline. Any sign of clutch judder then walk away. IMO the Merc will be a far safer bet! Keith. PS Search this forum for Juddergate and Fiat clutch judder, there where many, many posts a few years ago. Edit. But the Merc 3.0 Auto are very thirsty beasts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 starvin marvin - 2016-06-02 7:31 PM We have a Hymer on a Fiat 3.0 ltr which pulls our 7m van like a dream. I certain!y believe you can't beat getting as much oomph as you can. As the yanks say, you can't beat cubic inches. Personal choice as ever will rule. Agree with starvin marvin. The Fiat 2.3 of that age did suffer from reverse judder problems, well at least some. Our 7m van with 3 litre Fiat engine is loaded to 4250kg and pulls very nicely. Your van is going to be effectively loaded to 4500kg so perhaps consider the Merc option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 If towing (..or if the van is "tail-heavy" anyway), then the very fact that the Merc was rear wheel drive, would make it my choice..and the extra umph, would only swing things further. (Having said that, I have no first hand experience of Mercs or of their auto boxes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patcharoonie Posted June 2, 2016 Author Share Posted June 2, 2016 Thanks guys, interesting and helpful. I need to search for this Judder problem before I go any further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Den Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 We've downsized from the merc 3ltr auto to a MH with the fiat 150hp. We towed a fiat 500 with the Merc. If you have the chance of more HP, go for it. I'm not a racing driver, but I do miss the power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patcharoonie Posted June 2, 2016 Author Share Posted June 2, 2016 Thanks again guys. Any feedback/experience on the Merc 3/0 ltd Auto? The van with the Merc engine is on a 2007 year but not sure of the exact engine model or whether it's 5 or 6 speed auto. Any problems that you've heard of or is it generally reliable, albeit thirsty. Cheers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Check the year. Sprinter 2 was introduced in 2006 but a lot of conversions were done on the old one and registered later. If its the 3litre V6 it has the superb torque converter box. If it th 2.9 five cylinder engine it the old model. The standard Merc Auto on the Sprinter 1 was named Sprintshift. Basically a conventional synchromesh box with a computer controlled electrically operated clutch. A torque converter type auto box was also available on special order -at a price. Reputedly the Sprintshift was not that special to drive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 It's not cc or bhp that counts. It's torque. A Land Rover has 2.2 litres and 111 bhp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patcharoonie Posted June 3, 2016 Author Share Posted June 3, 2016 Hi George, all the info I have is that the van engine capacity is 2987cc with 180HP. Do you know if it's the Sprinter 2 from this info? If so, is it a 6 speed auto. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 I suspect the Merc is a Sprinshift model and as stated is a manual box with a computerised control. There is a hydraulic pump which powers things and according to the Yanks, who have a lot of them, is the weak link. However a replacement pump is an easy fix. Do check with the motorhome handbook regarding towing limits as some coachbuilt models have very low figures due to the extensions at the back, so a normal towbar cannot be fitted. Also check the chassis for rust, yes I know it is a Mercedes but they are prone to it especially at that age. Fiat galvanise all their models, Merc do not. The Fiat may prove suitable provided you are not in a huge hurry. Towing another tonne may slow you down especially on hills and I guess the Fiat is a manual box, not a Comfortmatic. Remeber both are 10 years old now and conditon is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgnbuk Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 I currently have a 2013 Roller Team T-Line 670 (6.7 metre low profile on Camper chassis, 130hp 2.3 litre Fiat) & tow two motorcycles (BMW R65LS 200kg-ish & Honda NC750 225 kg) on a 750kg unbraked trailer without problems. That includes going over the Arlberg Pass last year whan the tunnel was closed & I wasn't holding anyone up ! Mostly holds top gear at 60 mph on motorways & A roads (more than 60 easily achievable if required), but occasionally requires the lower gears up the steeper German autobahns / Belgian Ardennes motorways & passes. Mpg between 28 & 32 depending more on headwinds than terrain. Total outfit weight (as weighed on the West Yorkshire Trading Standards drive-over weighbridge at Morley) around 3.9 Tonnes (90 litres diesel, 11 kg gas, 100 litres water + the two of us & provisioned for a 2 week tour). Previous van was a CI Carioca 22 (6 metre overcab on commercial chassis, 84 hp 2 litre Fiat). Same trailer, but the R65LS was accompanied by a Moto Guzzi Breva 750. Total outfit mass around 150 kg less, as Carioca had a lower Miro & the Breva was lighter than the Honda. 2 litre van lower geared than the 2.3, but it still took us down to Northern Italy via the Ardenne, Germany & Austria more than once without too much of a struggle. Consumption 23 - 28 mpg - smaller engine working harder + overcab drag. What kind of bike & trailer have you got that comes in at a tonne ? HTH Nigel B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Hi Patcharoonie, The 2,987 cc engine is the OM642 V6 commonly referred to as the 3.0 litre. Look at Wiki... Link. This engine was only ever offered with either a manual or a true torque convert auto. The Sprintshift was discontinued with the intro of the NCV3 model in 2006. More info on wiki here... Link. For towing this would be my preference any day as it is Rear Wheel Drive. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patcharoonie Posted June 3, 2016 Author Share Posted June 3, 2016 Thanks for this Nigel, My trailer weight was based on my Harley Davidson, plus a 750kgs unbaked trailer. Reading your post was helpful and it's clear the 2.3 engine can handle the towing weight. We plan to head straight through France on the West so no plans to hit the Alps. We will probably head over the pyrenees on the med coast but that will be our biggest 'hill'. thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patcharoonie Posted June 3, 2016 Author Share Posted June 3, 2016 Keith, Thank you for your response, very helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Patcharoonie - 2016-06-03 10:36 PM Thanks for this Nigel, My trailer weight was based on my Harley Davidson, plus a 750kgs unbaked trailer. Hi again, A simple point of law, a 750 kg unbraked trailer CANNOT exceed 750 kg in weight! If it does it must have brakes and would also need to be plated at a suitable weight. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Thanks for this Nigel, My trailer weight was based on my Harley Davidson, plus a 750kgs unbaked trailer. Reading your post was helpful and it's clear the 2.3 engine can handle the towing weight. We plan to head straight through France on the West so no plans to hit the Alps. We will probably head over the pyrenees on the med coast but that will be our biggest 'hill'. There are some bloody big hills going down the west side of France!!. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Keithl - 2016-06-03 1:40 PM Hi Patcharoonie, The 2,987 cc engine is the OM642 V6 commonly referred to as the 3.0 litre. Look at Wiki... Link. This engine was only ever offered with either a manual or a true torque convert auto. The Sprintshift was discontinued with the intro of the NCV3 model in 2006. More info on wiki here... Link. For towing this would be my preference any day as it is Rear Wheel Drive. Keith. My suggestion is to check the handbook. Registration of motorhomes can run anything up to a year behind manufacture so maynot always be what you think. For example my van was sold as a 2014 model and registered so, but was made the previous autumn. Delivery to the converter and conversion etc takes time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgnbuk Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 " My trailer weight was based on my Harley Davidson, plus a 750kgs unbaked trailer. " I have an Erde CH750 trailer. Erde quote the basic trailer at 125kg - mine has been modified to add a nosewheel. 2 rear steadies & a few metres of Unistrut ro raise the bike channels so the BMW footrest just goes over the top of the mudguards, so is probably now around 150 kg. You didn't say which Harley you have, but a bit of Googling suggests a Road King is around 380Kg wet ( :-O Big lumps - do they sell by the pound !), so that bike on my trailer would be 530kg all up - well within the 750kg unbraked limit. I would be more concerned about a few other considerations - rear overhang, rear axle loading and interior layout. Both my vans measured 2 metres from the centre of the rear axle to the towball - the 0.7 metre dfference in van length was accounted for by the Roller Team having a longer wheelbase. The towbar on the CI was much heavier than the RollerTeam due to the chassis designs being different - the CI had to have two long box section arms that bolted to the chassis near the rear axle & probably weighed 30 kg +. The CI was also a rear kitchen layout, which put a lot of weight well behind the back axle. With the trailer nose weight set around 45kg, I was within 20Kg or the rear axle limit when fully loaded - as the waste water tank was also at the back of the van I had to make sure I emptied the waste tank before every journey. The RT is a French bed, rear bathroom, mid kitchen layout, so the heavier kitchen bits are all within the wheelbase, the towbar is very short & probably weighs less than 10 kg & I have enough "spare" rear axle capability to be able to run with a full waste tank if circumstances dictate I can't empty before travel. I would be looking more at rear overhang (more overhang puts disproportionaly more load on the rear axle), the basic habitation weight distribution (where are the heavy kitchen bits, fresh & waste water tanks, battery, gas bottles etc.) & how much "spare" axle capacity you have to carry the extra weight of a towbar (which may have to be substantial depending on chassis design) & trailer nose weigh, and how much "spare" total vehicle mass capability the van has before worrying about the engine. Some vans appear to be marginal for operation in "normal" trim, before considering towing capability. And a reveresing camera is a distinct advantage too - I can't see the bikes or trailer in a straight mine through the van mirrors or rear window & reversing proved all but impossible without being able to see what the trailer is doing & correct as soon as it starts to get out of line - something else affected by the rear overhang. HTH Nigel B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Dave225 - 2016-06-04 3:41 PM Keithl - 2016-06-03 1:40 PM Hi Patcharoonie, The 2,987 cc engine is the OM642 V6 commonly referred to as the 3.0 litre. Look at Wiki... Link. This engine was only ever offered with either a manual or a true torque convert auto. The Sprintshift was discontinued with the intro of the NCV3 model in 2006. More info on wiki here... Link. For towing this would be my preference any day as it is Rear Wheel Drive. Keith. My suggestion is to check the handbook. Registration of motorhomes can run anything up to a year behind manufacture so maynot always be what you think. For example my van was sold as a 2014 model and registered so, but was made the previous autumn. Delivery to the converter and conversion etc takes time. Agreed. Plus, a 7 metre van with a 3,500kg MAM will be light on payload. Factor in the necessary towbar, plus downforce on the hitch, and I think you'll be struggling. So check exactly what the payload actually is for this van, and verify that it will be adequate for your needs. Anything that has been addad to the van as a fixture has to be deducted form the available payload. Dealers are not necessarily clued up on this, so do your own research from scratch, and be vary wary of assurances. I also seem to remember that certain variants of the Merc Sprinter based motorhome conversions had surprisingly low towing limits. Another thing to investigate with great care relative to the bike/trailer load. Otherwise, I agree that the Merc offers the best combination of easy driveability and adequate power. Finally, do bear in mind that the Fiat is not only about 130HP, it is also weaker on torque, which you need to get your 4.5 tonnes moving on hills, and it is FWD, and also has a high first gear ratio. Standing starts at uphill junctions on wet days are liable to involve a lot of wheelspin or stalls! Wrong horse for the race, IMO. But do check the Merc (or Fiat if you must! :-)) towing limit for the actual van, as specified by the converter, not Mercedes/Fiat. It is the converter who "finishes" the vehicle, and the converter's plated GTW trumps the base vehicle manufacturer's. Be all that as it may, I still think 3.5 tonnes will prove inadequate in practise. Sorry, but lots for you to check. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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