Advice wanted on buying a motorhome abroad

[Ppauly]

Hi, Having previously owned a Mercedes motorhome we are wanting to get back into the scene and are considering buying one from abroad (Europe). If any kind reader has any tips this would be greatly appreciated. Any info. on the items listed below would be helpful too. 1. Which country offers the greatest savings to be made. 2. What method(s) of payment to recommend 3. Proof of ownership from seller. 4. Models to stay clear of. 5. Any excise duty/vat/tax to be paid when returning home.

[Brian Kirby]

This is a huge suject, far too large to deal with fully here.

So, just buy December MMM, turn to page 216, look down the right hand side of the page for the boxed item entitled "Buying a Motorhome in Europe", and follow the instructions therein.  It'll be the best £7 you ever spent!

Mel's paper on the subject will tell you virtually everything you need to know, and if you follow up by getting a VOSA Personal Importer's Pack, you'll probably fill any outstanding gaps.

If you still have questions, try a "Forum" search under the heading "importing".  You'll find even more information here.

Final word, if you propose doing this before next June, do another "Forum" search for "import insurance".  You'll need to be aware of the difficulty you will have getting insurance from UK based companies for unregistered/foreign registered vehicles before they enter UK.  (This should change after June 2007, but it would be wise to familiarise yourself with the problem, so that you can tell if you're getting bona fide information from insurers after that date.)

Good luck!

[Guest JudgeMental]

1. Which country offers the greatest savings to be made. Probably Germany 2. What method(s) of payment to recommend bankers draft or interbank transfer 3. Proof of ownership from seller personally would only purchase via dealer - but others have bought privately 4. Models to stay clear of. this is far to general... which models from which manafacturer? - 100's if not 1000s to choose from? I like Euramobil - but any main brands should be ok. it depends on what you are looking for from a camper.... 5. Any excise duty/vat/tax to be paid when returning home. if over 6 months old no vat - if new you have to pay tax locally and then pay tax in uk and then claim tax back from dealer. tax in germany has been 16% but is now I think 19%. if you are vat registered you can purchase free of vat and then pay 17.5% when you get it back hope this helps a bit - but only a general overview (E&OE)

[Burstner620]

[QUOTE]JudgeMental - 2006-11-26 9:29 AM 1. Which country offers the greatest savings to be made. Probably Germany 3. Proof of ownership from seller personally would only purchase via dealer - but others have bought privately 5. Any excise duty/vat/tax to be paid when returning home. if over 6 months old no vat - if new you have to pay tax locally and then pay tax in uk and then claim tax back from dealer. tax in germany has been 16% but is now I think 19%. if you are vat registered you can purchase free of vat and then pay 17.5% when you get it back.[/QUOTE] 1. Agreed 3. I have successfully purchased a used vehicle in a private sale (two years ago) but wouldn't recommend it. With hindsight, it could have gone very badly indeed. I was lucky to find a very honest seller who described the vehicle accurately. The "Fahrzuegbreif" gives all the technical details of the vehicle plus ownership (from new), the "Fahrzuegschein" is held by the current owner. You would want to see both of these ! 5. It's six months old PLUS "x" thousand miles on the speedo. (I can't remember the figure) German MwSt (VAT) is being raised to 19% on 1st January 2007 You don't have to be VAT registered. I bought my new van in Germany this year without paying tax. I signed a statement saying I would pay the VAT in the UK and subsequently sent a copy of the receipted VAT invoice to the dealer for his accountant.

[Mel E]

Sorry to disagree, folks, but the biggest savings on new motorhomes are to be made in Austria - even Germans go there! But it is a long way away and that might well sway your decision. On the other hand a cheap flight to Austria costs no more than one to, say, Dusseldorf. And thanks, Brian for your endorsement. As it happens, I've just done a regular update on the Fact Sheet.

[Brian Kirby]

Hello, Mel, and you're very welcome.

I response to the other comments above, I'd just say there is more to be taken into account than purchase price alone.  Depending on where in UK you live, France, Belgium or Holland are likely to be closer to home than Germany.  Yes, the 'vans can cost a bit more, but a fair amount of the difference lies in varying VAT rates.  Because you'll probably opt to re-claim the foreign VAT (or buy ex VAT) and pay at the UK rate, you'll need to find out what these are, and deduct them, to achieve a level playing field.

Language is another major consideration: much documentation is technical/legal in nature and likely to exceed to linguistic abilities of many, whether Brits or "other Euro" native speakers!  You do need to understand what you're signing and most sales people will - understandably - be more interested in your signature on the order than your understanding of it.  Just one example: generally, once you've paid your deposit, you're committed.  None of this "oh, I've just changed my mind" stuff so common in UK.  You're liable to have to pay the full price even if you're on your death bed when the 'van is delivered!

Next, distance and accessibility are also considerations.  Cheap flights, yes.  However, few dealerships anywhere are next to airports - or railway stations for that matter!  You will probably have to take taxis to and fro, and you'll be quite hard pressed to travel out, inspect stock, make a choice, finalise orders and return home, all in a day.  Therefore, meal and hotel costs also need to be factored in.

Finally, when the time comes to collect, you'll need to allow those costs again, and be prepared to spend a night locally in case something is wrong, or needs to be fixed. (A return trip next day is preferable to making the whole return journey).  You'll also have to make overnight stops coming back with the 'van (unless you want to cane the a*se out of your shiny new 'van!) so will need to take a well selected overnight bag, sleeping bag, etc.

Once you've factored those costs in, you may decide buying closer to home has overriding advantages, even if it does cost a bit more at first sight.

Final thoughts.  Most of the base vehicles have a two year warranty in Europe, whereas many have three years (with reduced third year cover) in UK.  Nearly all converters profess they have Europe wide warrantys, but you won't be top of any UK dealership's priority list if you present them with a defect on a personal import.  (Indeed, many turn their noses up at warranty work, unless the van was actually purchased from them.)  You may, therefore, need to return to the dealership where you bought it for warranty service. Another reason, perhaps, not to stray too far from home in search of the last few bob of savings.  You won't find right hand drive chassis as easy to source as left hand drive, and the Euro price for rhd is likely to be quite a bit higher.

Having said all that, there are still inexplicably large savings to be made by buying in Euros rather than Sterling, so it is generally well worthwhile.  However, do get the prices in Euros and check the UK prices as well, since not all makes sell at such a premium in UK.  It's a bit like Becks beer, one of the cheapest beers in Germany, but funny money here!

Hope this helps.

[Ppauly]

Does anybody have any info. on any webites/other sources for buying in Austria? It's another option and I spent three years driving a truck back and forward to Austria in the nineties so know the country and route(s) very well.

[messerschmitt owner]

in terms of warranties I know for a fact that Mercedes dealers get paid 90% of the cost of labour by Mercedes on warranty work - even on imported vans. Many franchised dealers do not care whether you bought the van from them - all they care is that Mercedes pays the bill. Fiat, Peugeot and Citroen may be different, but I have never had an issue with warranty work from Mercedes/Smart. In the UK, regardless of type of import, if the warranty is valid, the dealer should be prepared to do the work. Now I know this isn't always the case, but in that case I would change dealer to another that is willing. I did that with my smarts after Smart of bristol crashed my car - now they go to Swindon instead (despite it being the same chain, Swindon are better). For the motorhome, I go to Mudie Bond and they have never been anything but excellent, as has Mercedes Assist, the one time I called them out at midninght. Campbell

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Campbell.

However, it wasn't the base vehicle dealerships I was drawing attention to, it was the converter's dealerships.

Base vehicle warranties seem generally well enough observed, but those offered by the motorhome manufacturers, who convert the base vehicle chassis, are frequently not well observed.

[Mel E]

On WARRANTIES, many manufacturers fund their country importers for warranty work on the basis of units sold. These country importers are often wholly owned subsidiaries of the manufacturers, but sometimes they are not. Hence, as far as the base vehicle is concerned, it is important to transfer the warranty to the UK importing company. As well as any warranty work, it will also ensure that all the details of your vehicle are transferred to the UK importe's computer system and are visible to UK dealers since, again, many manufacturers do not have a global system available to all.

[Brian Kirby]

[QUOTE]Ppauly - 2006-11-28 9:27 PM Does anybody have any info. on any webites/other sources for buying in Austria? It's another option and I spent three years driving a truck back and forward to Austria in the nineties so know the country and route(s) very well.[/QUOTE]

If you've decided what you want to buy, go onto the motorhome manufacturer's website and look for their index of dealerships.  Even if you're looking for a used 'van, if you're going to buy abroad, it would probably be better to target a dealership for that make. 

Most manufacturers organise the index by country, so you should find the Austrian dealerships without difficulty.  Most also provide contact details, including links to websites and e-mail.

If you haven't yet decided what you want, it would probably be better to at least settle a shortlist first, so you'll know which makes/models you are hunting down.

Don't forget you'll probably need a vignette or a GoBox to drive it away, though!  I'd press for that to be included in the price.

[Ppauly]

So, just buy December MMM, turn to page 216, look down the right hand side of the page for the boxed item entitled "Buying a Motorhome in Europe", and follow the instructions therein. It'll be the best £7 you ever spent! Hi Brian, I'm a bit confused. Did you mean this years MMM December issue or a back issue because I only paid £3.10p for my November issue and there don't seem to be back issues for Dec. 95. On the matter of previous replies I can say I am definately looking for Peugeot (having a Peugeot car now I am well impressed with their engines), Mercedes, Renault. Not wanting anything Ford powered. Fiat engines, what are these like in terms of reliability? Of the models I have heard good reports of that I shall be looking at are Kontiki, Hymer(what are the types with the drop down bed?). Any other recommendations on model types and engines etc greatly appreciated. And thanks to all you guys who have assisted my queries so far. Paul J. P.S. How do you highlight paragraphs when you want to draw attention to it? New member on this site and I hate reading instructions.

[Administrator]

[QUOTE]Ppauly - 2006-12-01 12:08 PM P.S. How do you highlight paragraphs when you want to draw attention to it? New member on this site and I hate reading instructions. [/QUOTE] Hi Paul, Those are quotes. Press the 'Quote' button immediately below the post you'd like to lift the quote from, and you'll be taken to the 'post a reply' screen. The quote will already be written on the response form - just type the rest of your message underneath. You can click on the 'Forum Code: [u]Yes[/u]' message to the left of the response form to take a look at the special things you can type into the form to achieve some extra text formatting. Alternatively, you can go to your 'Control Panel' (the link's in the top right-hand corner of the screen) and select "Yes" next to 'Use rich edit box when composing messages?' - this will give you an interface a bit like a word processor when you write a post. Hope this helps!

[Guest JudgeMental]

PPauly, You can do better then either of your choices both in value and in quality. for instance Hymer came 15th in recent German quality tests. Buy in haste repent at leisure.... :-)

[Ppauly]

[QUOTE]JudgeMental - 2006-12-01 8:12 PM PPauly, You can do better then either of your choices both in value and in quality. for instance Hymer came 15th in recent German quality tests. Buy in haste repent at leisure.... :-) Yes but I'm not after a new motorhome, that's way above my budget. Looking for anything up to 10000 euros though I'll probably settle for one for half of that. Looking like I'll be getting one around the '87-'93 era. Going by what I've seen they still look well maintained. [/QUOTE]

[Brian Kirby]

[QUOTE]Ppauly - 2006-12-01 12:08 PM On the matter of previous replies I can say I am definately looking for Peugeot (having a Peugeot car now I am well impressed with their engines), Mercedes, Renault. Not wanting anything Ford powered. Fiat engines, what are these like in terms of reliability? Of the models I have heard good reports of that I shall be looking at are Kontiki, Hymer(what are the types with the drop down bed?). Any other recommendations on model types and engines etc greatly appreciated. And thanks to all you guys who have assisted my queries so far. Paul J. P.S. How do you highlight paragraphs when you want to draw attention to it? New member on this site and I hate reading instructions. [/QUOTE]

Paul

Re base vehicles: I wouldn't try to target Peugeot particularly, I think you'll find Fiat in much greater supply generally across Europe (Peugeot is a bit of a Brit fixation, we seem to think the Peugeot is somehow superior to the Fiat/Citroen).  The Boxer/Ducato/Jumper all come from the same factory and all run down the same production line.  The engines do vary a bit, but I don't think there are significant reliability differences, they are all very tough little (maybe not so little) vehicles designed to be worked very hard.  Their biggest problems in motorhome guise seems to be that most do insufficient annual mileage, so suffer from standing around too much (rusted brake discs, rust haze on clutch plates and splines, etc) and they operate above their normal design load.  That is to say, most have beefed up suspensions to cope with the additional weight of motorhomes, and even when empty weigh more than most "white vans" ever reach fully laden.  That this doesn't generally cause problems is testament to the intrinsic toughness of the vehicles, but it does mean that the ride can be a bit hard and jarring.

New vehicle prices are lower (generally) in Europe that UK, so used vehicles tend to be correspondingly cheaper again.  However, don't forget quite a bit of the price is VAT.  If you buy new you can re-claim the Euro VAT and settle for UK VAT at 17.5%.  If you buy used, you can't do that.  You'd therefore need to compare forecourt prices for secondhand vehicles across Europe to see how much comparable models cost in the different countries.  That'd be quite and undertaking and I doubt it would show much dividend. 

Germany has, I believe, the biggest motorhome market in Europe, followed by France.  These two countries will be where the greatest choice will lie, giving you the greatest possibility of finding a good example of the van you're after.  You're more likely to find Citroen based vans in France (they think they're French, bless them!), the Germans favour their VWs and Mercs, but the Fiat is the perdominant base vehicle in both countries.  Once you've homed in on your target vehicle, you'll have to track it down, and unless you choose one that is very popular you may have to do a lot of looking.  Manufacturers run huge catalogues, but they only build to order so you just may choose the one no-one else wanted.  Hen's teeth come to mind!  Therefore, largest markets, popular models, and you should be able to choose between several good examples and don't worry too much what base it sits on.

You mentioned Kontiki.  That is of course a UK produced van and I'd be surprised if you could turn a second hand one up anywhere in Europe.  I think, overall, because of their popularity, and the consequent numbers produced and therefore for sale secondhand, a "B" Class or Starline Hymer would be where I'd start my research.  I'd avoid the odd Renault based ones that were made mainly to keep the French happy.  Theres nothing wrong with the base, but when you want to sell it, I think you may find it meets more resistance.  If you think you may re-sell in UK, root for a Starline - we Brits are all snobs at heart, and can't resist a Merc!  However, at motorhome mileages, it won't really make any difference if Merc based or Fiat based.  Oh, except that Clive is bound to proclaim its rear wheel drive advantages at some stage!

[Mel E]

Ppauly, Brian is referring to my MMM Fact Sheet on Buying Abroad which covers everything you'll ever need to know. Forgive the advert (but this IS an MMM Forum), but to get it you send an SAE (C5 or bigger) plus a cheque for £7 or more made payable to my favourite charity (MacIntyre Care), an organisation that provides and cares for those with severe learning difficulties, to: M Eastburn Fact Sheet c/o MMM Editorial PO Box 88 Tiverton Ex16 7ZN. Hope that helps