langdav Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 Can anyone tell me if my leisure battery would still charge from hook up and alternator if the 50amp fuse next to the leisure battery had blown. The battery charges ok from both alternator an hook up but not from the solar panel. The van is a Chausson 610 if this helps. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phalange Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 easy enough to check if you have a test meter? I always thought the fuse was to protect the motorhome electrical circuit and not the charging circuit, but i stand to be corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 The large fuse on the leisure battery link is there to protect the link circuit cabling if there was a fault or short in that circuit -but the circuit is designed to carry a substantial current in service because of a combination of lighting and power loads, such as TVs. Hence fairly heavy cabling and a 50 amp fuse. Leisure battery charging should all be via this circuit unless someone has installed the feed from solar panels directly to the leisure battery. The fact that charging from the engine alternator and an EHU are still working suggests that they are connected via the link circuit, as they should be, and the 50amp fuse is OK. Since the solar charging is not working, it probably has been installed directly to the leisure battery and there should be a fuse in that (separate) circuit, which may have blown. Alternatively there could be a failed connection or a fault in either the solar panel regulator or the solar panel primary circuit. First things first: look for a second cable connected to the leisure battery and see if it routes to the solar panel regulator. If so look for a fuse holder and check the fuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 Not sure I understand the question fully?The 50a fuse should be the first item after the battery terminal before the cable goes off to any other devices. Therefore if this fuse has blown, which presumably you have witnessed, then no power should be getting in or out of the battery. So if you are saying the fuse has melted at some point, but the battery was still charged by Mains and Alternator then I am puzzled, as it shouldn't? If this 50A fuse was blown, you should not have any power in the habitation area, but you might witness the lights powering up when Alternator and mains is activated as these two connections are often 'upstream' of the fuse, but that would not necessarily mean the battery was being charged, just that the Alternator and mains power supply/charger are providing the power to the Lights, Water pump, etc? Under these conditions, depending on the electronics installed, you might even see 14.4v on the display, but again that wouldn't mean it is actually getting to the battery as this device is again 'upstream' of the 50A fuse. Is that what is happening? If this is the case it is possible that, no charge is getting to the battery from any charging source, it just looks like it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
langdav Posted July 5, 2016 Author Share Posted July 5, 2016 Thanks for the replies. I have checked the 50amp fuse and all the other fuses and they are all ok. Cannot find a fuse on the cable from the panel thats if there is one fitted. So not sure what to do next. Could it be a fault with the regulator or is the battery on it's way out ? Any more suggestions would be welcome. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 When you say Solar is not charging the battery, are you going by the voltages at the battery or is it 'just not holding a charge'? If not holding a charge it could be a dying battery, how old is it? Please can you provide the following : What voltage are you seeing at the battery when it's 'idle' with the Solar Panel isolated? What voltage are you seeing at the battery when it's 'idle' mid day with Solar connected? What voltage are you seeing at the battery when it's on mains EHU? What voltage are you seeing at the battery when the engine is running? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
langdav Posted July 6, 2016 Author Share Posted July 6, 2016 Thanks for the reply Will check the voltages tomorrow and post them later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
langdav Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 The leisure battery is 14 months old so I would have expected it to be ok. The readings on the battery are With the panel covered up and the main board off - 12.6 volts With the panel uncovered and the main board on - 12.58 volts with the engine running - 14.5 volts with the hook up connected - 0.02 volts I am afraid I don't understand why hook up is so low ! I hope this makes sense to you and suggests where the problem is. Thanks for the help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 What battery do you have as those voltages suggest it may not be that great, despite it's young age? A resting voltage of 12.5v suggests a battery that might be as low as 50% discharged, see attached chart. Has it ever run very low and maybe suffered premature aging? The Mains charger does not appear to be functioning correctly nor the Solar charger but if the battery is good I have no idea why? What charging system is it, a CBE system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
langdav Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 I don't think that the battery has gone below 12.3 volts. It is a 65 AH gel battery and the charging system is CBE. Is there any reason for the 0.02 volts while on hookup, Is it as you say the charger is not working properly. Would this also effect the solar regulator ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 12.3v is VERY low for a Gel? 65Ah seems a bit small and an usual size for a Motorhome battery as taking out just 17Ah brings it very close to the 30% ideal discharge level for long life? There is also a risk it might be overwhelmed by a big Motorhome charger? For example the Calira 38/20 charger has text on the front of the box saying, "Battery capacity 70 - 200Ah", the 70Ah being the minimum recommended size. I would be interested to know more about the battery make and model as some we have seen around that size have been aimed at the Golf Buggy market. One 'dealer' was selling them as 'Motorhome' batteries. We believe they were bought in quite a big batch. An unusual purchase we thought for a Motorhome Dealer to buy in bulk? Possibly because they were not at their best, so 'offloaded' by a distributor at 'too good' a price for the Dealer to miss?? The ones we have seen were very poor. This obviously may not apply here, but would be interested in the history of the battery?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
langdav Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 The battery is a Sonnenschein GF 12065Y Dry fit. It is rated at 65 ah (C5) : 78ah (C20) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Alan - that's an interesting .4 v differential between the 12.5 v 50% charged voltage of a sealed VRLA and the 12.1 v 50% charged of a conventionial, which I take to mean common or garden normal lead acid, battery and I do have to wonder why that would be so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Tracker, You are aware that a Gel battery can be discharged to a lower level than a 'wet' battery without significant degradation. It's life will still be shortened if you drop it very low, but not to the extent a 'Wet' battery would. So the construction differences do give different characteristics, maybe the higher 'start' voltage is part of that? Sorry don't know the answer, maybe someone else does? There are a lot of these charts about and few take into account battery technology advances from the last 5 years or so, indicating all 'conventional' lead Acid batteries behave the same. Yet a high Antimony battery may behave differently to a high Calcium battery, etc. For example, the high Varta LFD90 Silver Calcium has a resting fully charged voltage near 13.0v when most charts will tell you it should be anything from 12.7v to 12.9v. The VRLA section can include both Gel and AGM, which are quite different technology so, even within this section there may be variations of up to 0.3v difference. We suggest you therefore don't regard what the charts state as Gospel, just a guide. You also need to make an allowance for upto 10% inaccuracies on the Motorhome voltage display device. Langdav, The Gel battery you have is a 75Ah, not 65Ah which is good, but it is a 'Motive Power' battery, i.e. Golf Buggy, mobility Scooter, etc. Not necessarily a bad thing, but if it is like the other ones we have seen it may not be as 'lively' as you might expect. As stated above, we think the others were from a batch of batteries that had stood at the supplier way too long and had significant degradation, before being 'offloaded' to Motorhome owners as Motorhome batteries. None of the purchasers were aware of the batteries original intended market. One of the reasons we advise purchase from the battery Megastore at Tewksbury is that they have a really slick set-up and very high battery turnover so the risk of buying something that isn't fresh is very low. Plus the prices are the lowest we have seen. Not saying your battery isn't 'fresh', as we obviously have no idea, but you were given some strange advice? Are all the charging systems set appropriately for the battery technology, i.e. the mains charger and Solar Regulator set to Gel? If not they might accelerate the batteries decline? Sorry all this is not necessarily helping you with your problem, suggest that because it is so unusual you seek out an Auto electrician? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
langdav Posted July 8, 2016 Author Share Posted July 8, 2016 Thanks Alan for all the help. I will probably try and fit another battery to see if this makes any difference. If not then I will have to seek out an auto electrician as you suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 langdav - 2016-07-07 9:54 PM I don't think that the battery has gone below 12.3 volts. It is a 65 AH gel battery and the charging system is CBE. Is there any reason for the 0.02 volts while on hookup, Is it as you say the charger is not working properly. Would this also effect the solar regulator ? Just a couple of points. CBE chargers, AFAIK, reduce the charge to near zero when the battery is fully charged. So, is it possible that the charger is merely "seeing" a fully charged for some reason? Might the solar installation cause this? Could it just be surface charge following running the engine? We don't know how the battery voltages are being measured, from a stand alone meter (multimeter or similar, taken at the battery terminals) or from the motorhome control panel (unlikely to give an accurate reading). It seems possible that an accurate meter, applied to the battery terminals, might indicate all is well. (It should be a good battery, Sonnenschien are on a par with Exide gel, and are owned by Exide. Unlike many, they give quite conservative assessments of the battery capacity. We don't know how long after removing the solar or other inputs the voltage reading was taken. It needs to be after the battery has rested for about 12 hours, ideally longer. The battery needs to be allowed to charge to the maximum attainable for, say 24 hours, I would suggest on mains first, and then rested as above. Then take the voltage reading and turn off the mains and initiate the solar. You'll need a good, bright day, at about noon +/_ an hour or so, with no shade on the panel. At other times or conditions the charge voltage will be lower. That might explain your 12.58V, depending on the controller. The 14.5V from the alternator looks about right. Pedantic, I know, but VRLA can also be flooded batteries, so whereas the voltage differences on the chart might be true for Gel or AGM VRLAs, they surely can't be appropriate for the flooded variety? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Hi Langdav, I came across your thread last night, but I am not such a night owl as David! I am, as are you, very concerned about the battery voltage reading when the mains charger is energised. The voltage that you quote as 0.02 volts is seriously wrong. May I suggest that you check the battery voltage ACROSS THE BATTERY ITSELF, with the battery negative disconnected. (Sorry that is probably where you are testing, but I think that we need to be certain.) Is it possible that you have an intermittent fault on your meter, or its leads? I have had faulty leads in the past. Will the battery supply a load e.g. lights or water pump etc.,without any external supply? That is charger OFF, engine stopped, and solar panel covered. I suggest that this negligible voltage reading is investigated first, as it may lead to the answer to your original query regarding the solar panel charging. Please which version of cbe 12V distribution board is fitted in your MH? eg DS520AN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
langdav Posted July 11, 2016 Author Share Posted July 11, 2016 HI Alanb The distribution board fitted is a DS 300 TR. The battery will supply the lights etc with no external supply apart from the panel being uncovered. The reading across the battery with neg lead disconnected is 12.54v. The voltage leaving the regulator is 12.46v Hope this helps as I am confused. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Hi langdav, Those voltages seem to be on the low side. May I suggest that you recheck the voltage at the battery when on mains charge only. The quoted reading of 0.02V is so obviously wrong. Digital multimeters are generally so sensitive that they will give spurious readings when not properly connected. They are also not as accurate as the readouts suggest. (I have four that each give different readings.) Is it possible that the solar panel is connected incorrectly? If you want to read current with a DS300 board, a shunt has to be fitted in the main battery negative? lead and connected to the cbe board. If the solar regulator is connected so as to bypass the shunt, the solar charging current will not show. There was a thread concerning a total absence of current readings on a cbe panel some months back. In connection with the above paragraph you may find this French post interesting, but it does relate to a cbe DS520 board. http://yves.petrakian.free.fr/rapido/plus/solaire_cbe.htm. I used google translate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
langdav Posted July 12, 2016 Author Share Posted July 12, 2016 Hi Alanb I wasn't able to look at the page you suggested as it threw a error 404. I will check the hook up reading again. Excuse my ignorance but is it ok to check the hook up voltage with the neg terminal disconnected, I don't want to fry myself or the electrics on the van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Hi langdav, Sorry about the link, I copied it into my post, but as you say it gives an error. I have experimented, and if you delete the last part of the address so as to read " .........rapido/plus/ ", and then press return it takes you to the full website. I was trying to direct you to article 54. You should be able to click on that OK. Safety. Standard advice when working around batteries is to remove any metal objects such as wrist watches and rings etc. Also when reading battery voltages make sure that your multimeter is selected a DC voltage range of 20V or greater. The principal risk from 12V vehicle batteries is from an inadvertent short circuit. You would not get electrocuted, but you could get burnt, or set the vehicle on fire. This is why standard advice when working in vehicle engine compartments is to disconnect the battery negative. However in this instance the battery needs to be connected and the mains charger powered up, and with the solar panel covered. You should get a DC voltage greater than 13V. (See table posted by aandacaravan.) As you have not suggested that your mains charging has failed, you should get a reasonable result, but do make sure that you are making a good contact with the battery terminals. If the measured voltage is as expected, take voltage readings across the solar regulator input, output, and the battery with the panel uncovered, and mains charger OFF. In sunlight, I would expect to see at least 15V across the solar regulator input, with rather less across the output, which should be only slightly more than the voltage across the battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
langdav Posted July 17, 2016 Author Share Posted July 17, 2016 Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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