Replacing Hymer AGM Battery

[emjaiuk]

I hate Hymers!

 

After removing 13 setscrews, I can access the battery. There was no sign of the LR1218 solar controller, but after tracing the cable from the EBL99 I found it in a locker from the disused passenger foot well! There is no way I can access that to disconnect the solar panels, but there is a double connector in the cable between the controller and the EBL which I can access. Will it be OK to disconnect this? ( I've got my panels covered by the way) . I'm not sure I can remove the main battery fuse without completely removing the seat. I might have to insulate all the surroundings, and put the connectors in a plastic bag.

 

This might be a silly question, but does the MH need to be kept on mains hook up?

 

Any other suggestions?

[emjaiuk]

Another query, is it normal on Hymers for the leisure battery cables to be so much smaller section then normal battery cables?

[Derek Uzzell]

emjaiuk - 2016-08-02 12:54 PM

 

Another query, is it normal on Hymers for the leisure battery cables to be so much smaller section then normal battery cables?

 

A motorhome’s starter-battery needs connection cables with a substantial cross-section to cope with the high electrical demand placed on that battery when the engine is being started. The electrical demand on a leisure-battery will be comparatively low, so the connection cables can be significantly thinner. This isn’t peculiar to Hymer, it’s the norm.

 

I’m not familiar with a 2012 Exsis-i 562, but I’d expect it to have standard Transit Mk 7 seat pedestals and for the starter-battery to be located under the driver’s cab-seat (because that’s where Ford puts it on Mk 7s).

 

I assume your Hymer’s cab-seats both have swivel mechanisms and, if that’s the case, you’ll need to remove the swivel mechanism to access a battery underneath it. You might be able to remove the swivel with the seat still attached to it - otherwise you’ll need to remove the seat from the swivel and then the swivel from the seat pedestal.

 

Not sure about your question “...does the MH need to be kept on mains hook up?”, but you definitely do not want to be messing about with batteries and cabling with the motorhome connected to a live 230V supply.

[emjaiuk]

I think I've found out how to post pivtures on this forum

[Derek Uzzell]

emjaiuk - 2016-08-02 10:47 AM

 

... We bought the van from Bundesvan, who I would recommend to anyone, and they have said they will pay for a like for like replacements. I've found the G80 from Tanya at just under £145, which is cheaper than a Banner 59501 AGM replacement.

 

If anyone knows of a cheaper price for either I'd be grateful to hear from them...

 

 

Malcolm

 

Returning to your comment above, if Bundesvan will fund a single replacement battery costing around £150, then it clearly makes makes good sense to opt for a gel type. At least then you won’t need to concern yourself with venting and (as you’ve said) an Exide G80 should be a straight swap for the Banner AGM.

 

If Bundesvan would give you £150 in cash because your present AGM battery has failed, then buying one Varta LFD90 now and a second one later on becomes more attractive.

 

(It’s evident from your photos that there’s a battery charger alongside the Banner battery, so that rules out two batteries being fitted beneath the cab passenger-seat.)

[emjaiuk]

Bundesvan want the receipt, which is perfectly understandable. The offer is to replace the existing Banner AGM, and I'm trying to find the lowest price I can find, since I think the service I've had from Bundesvan is second to none, and I certaintly don't want to take advantage of them.

 

The blue charger shown is the EBL99. It is literally squashed in, with no space left at all. That's why the solar charger is in such an obscure place. I don't think it's a very good example of design, The Ford seat bases seem to be smaller than the Fiat ones. I would have thought putting it at the front of the adjacent seat locker would have been a better choice. Because it's a A Class with no passenger door it's almost impossible to get any meaningful access to the front of the EBL.

 

 

Malcolm

[lennyhb]

The LR1218 would have been an after fit so you can't blame Hymer for that, second battery normally fitted under the passenger seat. I know on fords the starter battery is there but should be room behind it unless you have one of the models with twin batteries. Can't see the battery cables in your pics I think mine are 25mmsq more than ample.

[aandncaravan]

kevina - 2016-08-01 11:31 PM

 

Gel Batteries a few facts and observations.

 

Temperature. when does anyones leisure battery ever reach 40C, mine live at under 20C all the time and I recharge at 45A into 2 x 110ah gels from deep discharge levels for hours via the b2b charger.

 

I have been reading forums for 7 years and cannot recall a single posting of a gel battery exploding but many of flooded batteries exploding. Just had a quick google to confirm this and no evidence of exploding gel batteries, only flooded.

 

Victron gel deep cycle: 50% dod = 750 cycles 80% dod = 500 cycles

Varta LFD90 “Long lasting” – up to twice the cyclic stability of conventional flooded batteries (up to 200 cycles @ 50% DOD) So, from the Exide chart Lenny posted lifetime cycles to 80% dod would be a poor 60 or so.

It is indisputably clear that gel batteries are far far superior.

 

If you have 2 lfd90s and discharge them to 50% you have 90Ah on tap and after 200 cycles they are finished. cost £160. weight 48kg

If you have 1 110Ah gel battery and discharge it to 80% dod you have 88ah on tap and it will last 500 cycles. cost £240 weight 34kg. smaller space required.

You don’t have to be Einstein to do the maths.

 

Charging. Gel batteries will charge at the same rate as, or faster than, flooded during the bulk charge phase, ie from 80% discharged up to 20% discharged,. They are more efficient; 98% gels v 89% for floodeds. The final 20% (the absorption phase) will take longer than flooded but lets not pussyfoot about, if you want capacity you’re going to use it.

You do need appropriate chargers for gel batteries but all vans have them these days, as do all solar regulators. For reference I disconnect the solar panel when the van is not in use (as that probably killed my last flooded batteries) and do not leave the mains charger on.

 

Self Discharge: Gels 1-3% per month, flooded 15% per month

Vibration resistance. Gel batteries resistance to vibration is 10X higher than flooded.

 

Kev

 

ps sorry emjaiuk!

 

 

Kev, your comparisons are against conventional batteries, not the Bosch/Varta Powerframe which is unique. No other wet battery has anything like the same performance, especially as they age.

 

If you read my post it was about temperature at the battery Plates which can be many degrees higher than the temperature at a Gel batteries Casing. Heat is very slow to transfer through the Gel to the outside of the case. The Gel in a G80 is very immobile, not only does heat transfer very slowly, but fresh acid is slow to take place of the Acid being depleted/replenished by discharging/charging. Hence the reason they are destroyed if used as a Starter Battery, and why, to my knowledge, nobody manufactures a Gel Starter battery.

On the other hand in a Wet battery, the very mobile fluid rises up the plates by convection not only taking the heat away from the plate surface but also bringing fresh Acid to continue the chemical reaction. The heat gets to the outside battery Case very quickly, helping to keep the Acid cool.

 

I would suggest your Gel Plates have been running a lot hotter than the temperature sensor on the outside of the case has been indicating?

 

If you read the Victron Energy chart on Plate temperature (link earlier in the thread) just a small rise in battery charge rate raises the Plate temperature significantly, yet the Case temperature will remain pretty much unchanged for some time. It can literally take hours for the Case to reflect the batteries internal temperature.

Just a small rise in Plate temperature in a Gel will cause corrosion at the positive plate, which will reduce the efficiency of the battery, and it's real capacity, but not necessarily reduce it's cyclic ability.

You can end up with a Gel battery that still has lots of Cycles, but the capacity might be reduced each time it is cycled and fast charged. Hence why most battery chargers have a much slower charge rate for Gel and why Sterling say don't use Gel batteries for fast charging.

 

Some of the Motorhome chargers we repair will only charge a Gel battery at it's highest charge voltage for less than a quarter of the time it does for a wet battery. The Schaudt LAS1218 unit in the EBL 119 can take 3 times longer to charge a Gel battery.

 

Your Einstein arithmetic assumes that a 'cycle' half way into a Gel batteries life will equate to full 80Ah capacity. A Gel battery that has been fast charged might be delivering only 50ah of it's expected '80Ah as new' capacity by the time it is half way through it's life cycle time.

A Powerframe battery on the other hand doesn't suffer corrosion at the plates, even at very high plate temperatures and voltages, so it's ability to deliver 'full power' goes right to the end of it's life. Hence Varta claiming a 70% improvement in electrical conductivity over none Powerframe batteries (including Gel and AGM) as the batteries age. A Powerframe battery does not lose efficiency as it ages.

Your figures also assume the slower charging Gel is actually back up to full capacity, which it is less likely to be.

 

Again it is this lack of corrosion in a Powerframe means the figures quoted for almost zero self discharge, not your high percentage figure, continue to be zero to end of life.

A G80 will start to self discharge at a higher rate, due to internal corrosion, as it ages.

 

It's efficiency will also drop, taking even longer to charge, even though it is giving back less.

Indeed most batteries characteristics can be significantly less than specification at 'half life' compared to a Varta/Bosch Powerframe.

That completely changes your figures, which are clearly based on pure theory, not reality.

 

You are right we don't have much real life experience of off grid camping, but we have seen the state of many, many vehicles (and their batteries) that do. Along with burst Gel/AGM battery cases.

We have also, probably, cut open more batteries of all types and ages than anyone else in the UK. So our experience is 'real', not just theory.

 

We also find that the Powerframe series have a real life way in excess of the Bosch/Varta figures, which have always been a lot more conservative than most.

 

 

The Varta LFD90 may not be the best battery in the World, it is only £79, but nothing else gets even remotely close in the upto £150 bracket for the average Motor home owner.

We say repeatedly on the website that the average high capacity user should consider other options, such as the Victron Energy products.

 

Just to reiterate, we don't sell batteries of any kind, so no loyalty to any brand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

See photo below showing why we think an LFD is so special. A none Powerframe Grid versus a Powerframe Grid well down the path of a batteries life.

 

As can be seen the corrosion built up on a none Powerframe battery, all technologies, will not only reduce electrical conductivity between the Grid and the 'Paste', so inhibiting current flow, but will tend to dislodge the paste.

The loss of the Paste will additionally reduce the amount of stored energy, i.e. premature loss of 'amp hours' resulting in a 80Ah to behaving more like a 60Ah.

 

This corrosion occurs naturally as a battery is used but can be accelerated by a higher charging voltage or Plate temperature. This type of corrosion is particularly fast if both happen together when gassing will also normally occur.

 

Bear in mind that this reduced conductivity affects both charging and discharging. It makes it harder to charge a battery, so needs more amphours put in and it saps some of the power when you try and take it out. An older 100Ah battery might require 130Ah to 'charge it fully', but only give a usable 80Ah when you want it. On a Solar charged van that can make a big difference to how long you ca watch the TV for.

 

Note the complete lack of corrosion in the Bosch/Varta photo. Almost perfect electrical conductivity right to end of life.

 

Some budget batteries we cut open in 2012 and 2013 when we doing our research were heavily corroded at just 18 months old.

What we saw in Powerframe batteries, mirrored the photos.

.

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

lennyhb - 2016-08-02 8:24 PM

 

..I know on fords the starter battery is there but should be room behind it unless you have one of the models with twin batteries.

 

On a Transit Mk 7 Ford always fitted the starter-battery under the cab driver’s-seat irrespective of whether the vehcle was LHD or RHD. The height of the starter-battery is lower than that of a Exide 80Ah gel, a Varta LFD90 or the Banner AGM battery Malcolm currently has.

 

On my 2005 Transit Mk-6 based LHD Hobby motorhome the starter-battery was at the rear of the driver’s-seat pedestal. It may well be the case that one of the batteries I’ve mentioned above would have fitted in the front part of that pedestal, but I never attempted trying this.

 

Like Malcolm’s Hymer, my Hobby had its habitation-battery (originally an Exide G80) in the cab passenger-seat pedestal and, as the CBE battery-charger and ‘black box’ were also there, there was no room for a 2nd battery. If I’d chosen to add a 2nd habitation-battery, I’d have done exactly as Malcolm was considering doing and installed it in the seat locker to the rear of the cab passenger seat.

 

When the Hobby’s Exide battery failed I replaced it with a Banner AGM battery with the same physical dimensions. As I was in France when the Exide battery died and needed a new battery ASAP I was over a barrel. I would have preferred to have replaced like-for-like but I couldn’t source an equivalent gel battery. If I had been in the UK, had more time on my hands and the ‘PowerFrame’ Varta LFD90 had been available I’d have fitted that.

[Derek Uzzell]

emjaiuk - 2016-08-02 6:56 PM

 

Bundesvan want the receipt, which is perfectly understandable. The offer is to replace the existing Banner AGM, and I'm trying to find the lowest price I can find, since I think the service I've had from Bundesvan is second to none, and I certaintly don't want to take advantage of them.

 

The blue charger shown is the EBL99. It is literally squashed in, with no space left at all. That's why the solar charger is in such an obscure place. I don't think it's a very good example of design, The Ford seat bases seem to be smaller than the Fiat ones. I would have thought putting it at the front of the adjacent seat locker would have been a better choice. Because it's a A Class with no passenger door it's almost impossible to get any meaningful access to the front of the EBL.

 

Malcolm

 

The present situation appears to be odd regarding the asking prices for a Banner 59201 AGM battery and for an Exide G80 gel battery, with it (seemingly) being impossible to source the Banner battery as cheaply as the Exide one.

 

If this were pointed out to Bundesvan I would expect them to be comfortable with you obtaining an Exide G80 instead. However, if Bundesvan were insistent that the replacement battery be AGM type (though I can’t see why they should) there are alternatives to the Banner product. For example

 

http://tinyurl.com/hcsyjdp

 

Obviously, if Bundesvan demanded that the Banner 59201 AGM be replaced with another 59201, all you could do is try to source a new one at a good price.

 

Although I’m reasonably confident that (as I said earlier) the height of a standard Transit starter-battery is lower (175mm rather than 190mm) than the height of a Banner 59201 or of an Exide G80, I’m not sure if that would actually matter if you wanted to put a leisure-battery alongside the starter-battery under the driver’s seat. You’d need to do some twiddling to secure both batteries safely, but I think it should be practicable. I expect Hymer could have done this originally if they had wanted to, but I’d be wary of trying to move your Hymer’s habitiation-battery over now as you’d need to modify the cabling significantly.

[emjaiuk]

Well, I've discovered the Banner AGM was fitted with a vent pipe. It disapears under the EBL99 so must have beed fitted by Hymer from new.

 

I've ordered a G80 at £144 from Tanya Batteries. I don't expect any problems with Bundesvan at all, there not that sort of people. FWIW the original Banner was a 59501 which has been replaced with the 59201. No idea of the difference. There isn't space under the drivers seat without altering the starter battery installation and using a shoe horn, and even then I'm not sure. The ideal space is the adjacent disused passenger door foot-well. There isn't quite enough depth, but it would be relatively easy to replace the supplied wooden cover with a raised lid. If we keep the van, and it's got the best payload for a <3.5t i know of, sometime in the next 2/3 years I'll look at changing the solar controller and fitting two batteries. Hopefully the G80 will be adequate till then although until we use off grid in winter we won't know for sure. I'm still of a mind that if I'd had the time to mess around I would have fitted two LFD90s, although that would have still left me with the trickle charge voltage of the Schaudt solar controller. Life would be so much simpler, and cheaper, if we never took holidays!

 

Malcolm

[Derek Uzzell]

I believe there are no ‘technical’ differences between a Banner 59501 and a Banner 59201. (See the ninth page of this Banner document)

 

http://www.bannerbatterien.com/banner/files/FolderRunningBullGB.pdf

 

After I had bought a Banner AGM battery for my Hobby motorhome in France in March 2012 and returned to the UK I looked at the Banner website. I immediately noticed that ‘my’ Banner AGM battery differed from the AGM batteries shown on the website. My battery was labelled “Power Bull” not “Running Bull”, had a black casing not a blue casing, and was designated 59201 AGM not 59501 AGM.

 

I contacted Banner(UK) about this, sending them photos of my battery and asking what exactly I’d been sold. I was told that what Banner batteries were called varied from country to country and application to application, and this was also true regarding casing colours. As I’d sent a photo of my battery’s barcode, Banner(UK) were able to confirm that my battery was techically identical to a Running Bull AGM 59501.

 

I still wasn’t exactly happy, so I emailed the French Citroen dealership that had sourced the Banner battery and asked where they had got it from. They told me it had come from Caen Batteries and I emailed that company and inquired about the battery’s history. The reply was that they had happened to have had a very small number of these Banner AGM batteries in stock when the Citroen dealer had contacted them and the batteries were normally fitted to VW Phaeton cars. When I did a bit more research I found that VW Phaetons could have a single AGM battery, one AGM battery and a sealed lead-acid battery or (in the case of the 5.0litre V10 diesel version) two AGM batteries - one for starting and the other for accessories. All of the Phaeton’s AGM batteries had the my battery’s specification.

 

If you are going to fit another Exide G80 battery at some time in the future, Exide’s advice for their gel-battery range is there shoild be no greater age difference between the ‘old’ battery and a new one than one year.

[emjaiuk]

That's interesting, I thought both batteries had to be the same age.

 

Malcolm

[kevina]

aandncaravan - 2016-08-02 8:42 PM

 

I’m not trying to denigrate batteries such as the LFD90 which are perfectly good batteries for many users, certainly better than the unbranded ebay batteries so many are fond of. I’m pointing out that gel batteries are superior and safe, rather than inferior and with dangerous weaknesses as you regularly exagerate.

 

ALL batteries of whatever construction will have their life expectancy reduced by 75% if they spend their continuous working lives at 40C. However, most readers batteries probably average under 15C unless they spend all year in Spain.

 

During a transient charging cycle, the fact that gel batteries are so efficient means that there is little energy being converted to heat compared to flooded batteries. (2% v 11%, and since heat = i2r that is a big difference).

 

My own battery temperature sensor, and all others I imagine, is bolted to the negative terminal post and is very sensitive. Who would use the casing temperature? I've once seen the charging voltage drop by about 0.1v which would equate to a battery temperature of 25C.

 

Normal charging temperature range without needing compensation is 10C - 30C.

Victron sugest a max charging rate of 20A per 100Ah without temperature compensation. Other gel manufacturers suggest a charging range of 10A to 35A per 100Ah battery, and others up to 50A/100Ah. Fast charging IS NOT 20A into a 100Ah battery, this is the top end of optimum and unless you have a sophisicated b2b charger the average motorhome won’t get near it anyway.

 

Both my battery chargers “bulk” charge my gel batteries at the same rate as they did the previous flooded batteries. The absorption charge (the last 20%) does take longer but a flooded battery is also very slow during this phase compared to the bulk rate. Practical consideration is to use the battery in the 20% to 50% (or 20% to 80% for gel) DOD range to take advantage of the faster bulk charging rate when moving on.

 

As previously mentioned, I don’t believe in continuous float charging motorhome batteries, continuous float charging is for emergency backup batteries. Anyway, it is AGM batteries that suffer most from thermal runaway when float charged.

 

Grid corrosion is more of a problem with flooded batteries than gel, all the points you make about loss of capacity are to do with overcharging/undercharging/incorrect charging etc of one sort or another and equally relevant to all batteries.

 

I cannot ever recall reading on this forum, or others, of anyone with a gel battery complaining about early failure, on the contrary all reports seem to be about them still going strong after 8 years or more. On the other hand I read about someone with a 1 or 2 year old flooded battery failing virtually every week .

 

Apologies again to the OP, no more from me except that I think you have made a wise choice and remember that your gel battery can be mounted on its side if that helps.

 

Kev

[Derek Uzzell]

emjaiuk - 2016-08-03 7:09 PM

 

That's interesting, I thought both batteries had to be the same age.

 

Malcolm

 

‘Roughly’ the same age should be OK when a brand-new battery is being connected to an older one. The critical thing is that the old battery should be in excellent working order - there’s no point in connecting a brand-new battery that’s identical to, say, a 6 months older battery if the latter has been badly abused or has developed a defect.

[Nobby]

kevina - 2016-08-03 10:54 PM

 

I cannot ever recall reading on this forum, or others, of anyone with a gel battery complaining about early failure, on the contrary all reports seem to be about them still going strong after 8 years or more. On the other hand I read about someone with a 1 or 2 year old flooded battery failing virtually every week .

 

Kev

 

I can add my own evidence of gel battery longevity. I have had two Sonnenschein gel batteries in my Hobby since new in 2002 and they are still going strong and performing admirably after years of regular and varied use, much of it off-grid.

 

The batteries are kept fed permanently either from the solar that I had fitted in 2002 or from mains or engine charging while on the road. I have been expecting to have to renew them for about eight years now but they continue to outperform all expectations and (touch wood) have never let me down.

 

Nobby

 

 

 

[thebishbus]

Yes I second that. Our 2001 Hymer original starter battery was replaced in 2012 ( 11 years ) I thought that was a good life. But our 2 Sonnenschein gel batteries are still going strong, ( 15 years ). Must say that I now have my fingers crossed though.

 

Brian B.

[lennyhb]

Practical experience appears to outweigh the theory.(lol)

IMO Gel's well worth the extra dosh.

[Brian Kirby]

emjaiuk - 2016-08-02 10:47 AM

 

My head hurts!

 

I've decided I'm going to fit a single Exide G80 Gel for now. ............................

Malcolm

Wise, I think!

 

One aspect of your original proposal to fit two batteries is whether your particular EBL has the charging output to handle the extra battery capacity. There is a strong implication with ours (Fiat based, like Lenny's, with battery installation as his photo) that an additional Schaudt charging module is required once the total battery capacity rises as high as 160Ah.

 

I have been told that the Sonnenschein SL75 and Exide G80 are identical apart from possibly case colour (Sonnenschein grey, Exide black?) and the fact the Sonnenschein are a little more conservative in the capacity they declare (which I suspect may underlie the reported slightly higher rating for the Sonnenschien's durability - they just don't get driven as hard).

 

Be that as it may, if you double the battery capacity, that increased capacity has to be charged, and I think an EBL99 alone may not have the output to optimally charge 150 - 160 Ah. Worth checking before you install the additional battery, as I suspect you may need that supplementary Schaudt charger module as well.

[aandncaravan]

We have always said the G80 was a long life battery, unless Fast charged.

 

IMO, Long life is it's only quality, a Gel has many disadvantages.

 

The fact that the supporters of the G80 speak only of it's long life, is evidence of what an ordinary battery it is.

 

I can't see the point in paying twice as much money for what we think is a compromised battery when the average Motorhome ownership is less than 5 years, so super long battery life is a quality never 'seen' by the purchaser.

 

 

Brian, The SL75 is often proposed as a G80 equivalent, but it is not.

It is a 'Motive' battery designed for Mobile Scooters, Golf Carts, etc. Despite being a physically big battery It's capacity is even less than the G80 as the design is in favour of discharges to very low voltages.

But you are right to caution on the fitment of 2 batteries and staying within the capabilities of the charging systems. However in this case we suggested two LFD90's which are far more efficient, in terms of power they require for charging, so that the load they place on a charging system is lower than a conventional battery.

A non Powerframe battery, like the G80, might impose a 30% greater load on the charging system at 3 years of age, so your caution would apply to such a set-up.

 

Provided you manage the discharging of the batteries within the manufacturers advice (recommended 30% and a limit of 50%) the EBL range will handle 2 x LFD90's without the addition of a 'booster'.

 

Note that the LFD90 has a resting voltage of closer to 13v (just like VRLA's) than a conventional batteries 12.7v, so when judging battery discharge the chart to go by is the one below, not the usual ones found on the web.

12.3v should be lowest limit you discharge to under normal circumstances..

 

 

.

 

 

[aandncaravan]

kevina - 2016-08-03 10:54 PM

 

aandncaravan - 2016-08-02 8:42 PM

 

I’m not trying to denigrate batteries such as the LFD90 which are perfectly good batteries for many users, certainly better than the unbranded ebay batteries so many are fond of. I’m pointing out that gel batteries are superior and safe, rather than inferior and with dangerous weaknesses as you regularly exagerate.

 

ALL batteries of whatever construction will have their life expectancy reduced by 75% if they spend their continuous working lives at 40C. However, most readers batteries probably average under 15C unless they spend all year in Spain.

 

During a transient charging cycle, the fact that gel batteries are so efficient means that there is little energy being converted to heat compared to flooded batteries. (2% v 11%, and since heat = i2r that is a big difference).

 

My own battery temperature sensor, and all others I imagine, is bolted to the negative terminal post and is very sensitive. Who would use the casing temperature? I've once seen the charging voltage drop by about 0.1v which would equate to a battery temperature of 25C.

 

Normal charging temperature range without needing compensation is 10C - 30C.

Victron sugest a max charging rate of 20A per 100Ah without temperature compensation. Other gel manufacturers suggest a charging range of 10A to 35A per 100Ah battery, and others up to 50A/100Ah. Fast charging IS NOT 20A into a 100Ah battery, this is the top end of optimum and unless you have a sophisicated b2b charger the average motorhome won’t get near it anyway.

 

Both my battery chargers “bulk” charge my gel batteries at the same rate as they did the previous flooded batteries. The absorption charge (the last 20%) does take longer but a flooded battery is also very slow during this phase compared to the bulk rate. Practical consideration is to use the battery in the 20% to 50% (or 20% to 80% for gel) DOD range to take advantage of the faster bulk charging rate when moving on.

 

As previously mentioned, I don’t believe in continuous float charging motorhome batteries, continuous float charging is for emergency backup batteries. Anyway, it is AGM batteries that suffer most from thermal runaway when float charged.

 

Grid corrosion is more of a problem with flooded batteries than gel, all the points you make about loss of capacity are to do with overcharging/undercharging/incorrect charging etc of one sort or another and equally relevant to all batteries.

 

I cannot ever recall reading on this forum, or others, of anyone with a gel battery complaining about early failure, on the contrary all reports seem to be about them still going strong after 8 years or more. On the other hand I read about someone with a 1 or 2 year old flooded battery failing virtually every week .

 

Apologies again to the OP, no more from me except that I think you have made a wise choice and remember that your gel battery can be mounted on its side if that helps.

 

Kev

 

 

Kev, once again your comparisons are versus a conventional Wet battery that DOES suffer all you say, but an LFD Powerframe DOESN'T. You seem to be under the misapprehension that a Powerframe battery is no different to any other Wet battery?

An LFD is as efficient as a Gel, more so as time goes on. The figures you quote are for a new Gel, they will drop significantly by end of life. No way will your 2% figure be relevant at 2 years of age on a G80 that is used. Especially if used on Deep Discharges.

 

Your comparison of a Gel vs a conventional Wet at 2% v 11% is not relevant to an LFD, as is your temperature comparison. It is showing you don't seem to understand what you are arguing against?

 

An LFD is unique, it is Patented. No one can copy it. This is a long way from a conventional wet battery that out performs almost everything else it's market.

Including being exceptionally good at high 'Desert' temperatures, as shown by the test published on our site, carried out in the Australian outback. In the tests a Powerframe battery lasted twice as long as a conventional quality battery in searing under bonnet temperatures that probably exceeded 40 degrees by a big margin.

This is relevant because battery deterioration doesn't just happen during charging, but also during discharge. Discharge a Gel at higher than 20a per 100A and you will see the same issues as charging it. In other words during normal use which tends to be when the weather is warmer, not cold.

Any Battery being used in warmer climes of just 25 degrees can easily exceed 30 degrees when used, that applies to many parts of the World not just Spain. You also don't seem to take into account that temperatures inside a Motorhome can be 10 degrees higher than outside?.

The Motorhome on the Pitch next to us at Moreton-in-Marsh in July 2016 complained about it being over 35 degrees inside their van. Add on 5 degrees to that of 'usage heat' and there is you 40 degrees.

That wasn't Morocco, Spain, Algeria or Cannes, but UK.

 

 

You also use 'your chargers' as examples when it is a specialised after market fitment designed for Boats and behaves completely differently to those used in most Motorhomes.

Some Motorhome chargers will charge a Gel G80 battery for just one hour at the first stage before dropping to the lower rate. That is going to take a VERY long time to charge up a Deep discharged Gel.

 

 

You are right many, many Wet batteries are poor technology and fail prematurely taking the charging systems with them, that was the exact reason we did all our battery research back in 2012 and 2013. Months of it, cutting open batteries to see why makes a good one good and a bad one bad.

Carefully opening up batteries to see the reason for the many different types of different battery failure and why this then takes out the Alternator and mains charger.

That was all batteries, Gel AGM, Wet and Powerframe.

 

Our research was borne out of a desire to understand our trade of battery chargers and why batteries were killing so many chargers. We wanted to find the battery that best suited the majority of Motorhome owners, not just go by the many incorrect myths, sales talk and misinformation. Of which there has been much including the comment above that says Deep Discharging a battery does affect it's life much.

 

When you make your claims about what happens inside a battery, is that is backed up research from batteries you have opened? Or are we just talking theory?

 

 

One Powerframe battery we opened at about 3 years of age had run totally flat twice and then been fast charged on the Alternator both times. It had been used almost every day for those 3 years.

Absolutely no sign inside of any corrosion or damage.

 

Not what we saw with G80's we opened, which remember are a common fitment so we opened quite a few, young and old.

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Brian Kirby - 2016-08-04 10:40 AM

 

emjaiuk - 2016-08-02 10:47 AM

 

My head hurts!

 

I've decided I'm going to fit a single Exide G80 Gel for now. ............................

Malcolm

Wise, I think!

 

.........................................................Be that as it may, if you double the battery capacity, that increased capacity has to be charged, and I think an EBL99 alone may not have the output to optimally charge 150 - 160 Ah. Worth checking before you install the additional battery, as I suspect you may need that supplementary Schaudt charger module as well.

Have now checked on the above, and looked up the EBL99 Instruction manual. The EBL99 should not be used to charge batteries of less than 55Ah, or more than 10% of its rated output. The rated charging output is 18A so, on that basis, your proposal to install a further Exide G80, to give 160Ah total capacity, would appear to be OK, if you eventually decide to do so.

[kevina]

aandncaravan - 2016-08-04 4:17 PM

 

 

Read the first paragraph of my last post again!

[aandncaravan]

Brian the EBL99, as per most modern chargers, also charges the Starter battery which is usually around 90Ah. So an allowance should be made for this when calculating the total battery bank size.