Replacing Hymer AGM Battery

[aandncaravan]

kevina - 2016-08-04 8:49 PM

 

aandncaravan - 2016-08-04 4:17 PM

 

 

Read the first paragraph of my last post again!

 

 

I did, but the original thread was specifically about the Varta LFD90 Powerframe versus Banner AGM, not generic Wet batteries.

 

[kevina]

aandncaravan - 2016-08-04 10:56 PM

 

kevina - 2016-08-04 8:49 PM

 

aandncaravan - 2016-08-04 4:17 PM

 

 

Read the first paragraph of my last post again!

 

 

I did, but the original thread was specifically about the Varta LFD90 Powerframe versus Banner AGM, not generic Wet batteries.

 

Precisely. So why the essay on the (supposed) weaknesses of gel batteries rather than one on the weaknesses of Banner agm batteries?

 

That's a rhetorical question by the way.

[aandncaravan]

"Kev - Precisely. So why the essay on the (supposed) weaknesses of gel batteries rather than one on the weaknesses of Banner agm batteries?"

 

 

Because the Banner AGM's were dismissed very early in the thread discussion and Gel proposed as an alternative to Powerframe technology/LFD90's.

 

You said that Powerframe technology was ok but then wrote, "I’m pointing out that gel batteries are superior..." yet went on to make that 'superior' point by comparing them to ordinary wet batteries, as though you didn't realise there was a difference?

 

You further stated, "ALL batteries of whatever construction will have their life expectancy reduced by 75% if they spend their continuous working lives at 40C".

Yet Powerframe batteries do not degrade at those temperatures, and at even higher temperatures the percentage is unlikely to be 17%, let alone 75%.

 

If you knew anything about Powerframe technology you would not have made either statement, hence my attempt to set the record straight.

 

 

The Varta LFD90's/Bosch L5 Powerframe technology has been Patented by Johnson Controls/Varta/Bosch because it is THAT different.

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

aandncaravan - 2016-08-05 4:36 PM

 

...If you knew anything about Powerframe technology...

 

 

Easily rectified.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=powerframe+grid+technology

 

Being convinced is, of course, another matter. ;-)

[aandncaravan]

Derek, that is good, but I think this might be better as it pulls together the information from Bosch, Varta and Johnson Controls into one place : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

It has the PDF's, Diagrams and Photos together.

 

I wrote it so I might be a teeny weeny bit biased on how good it is? *-)

 

 

Maybe worthy of note on the same page is the emerging American technologies led by Northstar Batteries which look like they might leapfrog Powerframe by a massive step.

Not quite there yet for Motorhomes, but we might see some really outstanding technology for batteries in the next year or two that will really shred the old battery Rule Book, without paying major money.

[emjaiuk]

As the OP of this thread, just a reminder that I've now got a G80 installed. Although broadly speaking I follow the vast majority of Alan's comments, sometimes the real world interferes with theory.

 

In my case I didn't have time to alter the original installation in anyway.

I'm convinced a single G80 will give me more usable power than a single LFD90.

From Alans own comments I haven't much faith in my EBL99/LR1218, particularly the final output voltage to get the best out of FLA batteries.It may not be ideal but it seems to me to suit gel better, particularly as in practice an 80% charged gel will be sufficient for me most of the time.

I wont be able to test the setup until winter, (heater use and lower solar input) I will be reasonably happy if I can get 4 years out of it. If I have problems this winter I'll think again.

Removing and replacing the seat in my Ford based Hymer is an absolute pig of a job, so any future change will be thought out very carefully.Totally maintenance free is essential.

Hopefully by the time I need to change/renew new battery cost effective technology will be available

 

Malcolm

 

[aandncaravan]

Malcolm, I know you have already made your choice, the below is designed to help you get the best from it.

You have misunderstood the comments about the EBL 99/LR1218, which are both optimised for Wet batteries, not Gel. The EBL 99 comes from the factory with a default setting of 'Wet' .

While the EBL 99 has a Wet/Gel switch the charging of Gel batteries is compromised as there is no temperature compensation, part of the reason for the longer charge time.

 

The LR1218 has no Gel switch setting, being more suited to wet batteries which are tolerant of a wide range of charging voltage variations. Gel batteries are the least tolerant of a less than ideal charging program.

 

 

You may negate some of the above by disconnecting Solar from the batteries when the vehicle is not being used, when you can?

 

Can we suggest that while you may be happy with an 80% charged battery, that you don't leave it in that state for any length of time? Otherwise degradation is likely to occur.

For this reason, and the slow mains charging, when you do connect up to EHU, try and leave it connected for 48 hours to help the EBL 99 give it really good long charge and get it back up to 100%?

 

Ideally try and get it onto EHU every 4 - 6 weeks for 48 hours.

 

 

 

[emjaiuk]

I thought I'd read that the final float charge from the 1218 was to high for FLA batteries but better suited, not perfect, to gel. I'm not really interested in having to be selective in when I can use solar. I really want a fit and forget system. When I say I can live with an 80% charge, I really mean days 2/3 etc of a short off grid stay. Again, when at home the EHU is on all the time. This is the sort of thing I mean when I say real life is sometimes different to theory.

 

Malcolm

[aandncaravan]

No the other way around, the LFD and Wet batteries will tolerate a wider variation of charge voltages than Gel. Gel are very intolerant of anything but the right charge profile.

 

As an example, some of the Ford car range recharge the Wet Starter battery at a higher than normal 15.5+V on start-up and then drop to a lower than normal 14v when it is fully charged.

 

 

 

 

 

[emjaiuk]

So what is the float charge of the 1218 then, and how will that effect my gel battery?

 

Malcolm

[lennyhb]

The LR1218's output remains at 14.2v it does not reduce to a maintenance voltage. I had an LR1218 with an EBL101 in my last van with 2x G80 Gels after nearly 6 years the batteries were still behaving like new.

 

The newer LRM1218 MPPT regulator does have settings for different battery types and reduces to a maintenance voltage.

[aandncaravan]

How it affects your installation will depend on many things from battery bank size, how often you use the vehicle, where you use the vehicle, how good the Starter battery is, the 'storage' drain on the habitation battery, etc.

 

Obviously the more the battery has a regular drain the less likely it is to be affected as it will actually need charging, rather than a maintenance charge.

For example, things like Frost Protection valve or a Stereo system on Standby all run down the battery slightly so that the battery actually needs a proper charge so 14.2v will be ok.

 

Something as simple as a poor Starter battery powering an Alarm that might 'bleed' off power from going to the Habitation battery can also have a very different overall effect on one vehicle versus another. Likewise a van in storage in Glasgow will have a significantly lower Solar output than one stored in Cornwall on a sloping driveway where the Panel is angled to face the Sun. The difference in Solar gain between the very North and far South can be as much as 25%. Angle one to the Sun and put the other in partial shade and what seems like the same setup can be very different in Solar output.

 

 

You should therefore be careful of putting too much store by a particular users experience as it can be completely different to you own

 

I can't say whether you will have an issue or not, hence suggesting you isolate the Solar when it is not needed.