30mb gas regulator

[chas]

Hi all- I know that this regulator failing farce as been covered in the recent past, but there seems to be no news from the manufactures of what they are going to do about it. We have all read that if the regulator is positioned higher than the gas cylinder, this problem does not seem to occure, for what ever reason, but in my case , there is not enough room in the gas cupboard to raise it higher. I could of course use smaller cylinders, I have always used 7kg or 6 kg ,to go down to 4.5kg size , but thats not very good for lasting any length of time particuly when going abroad. So my thoughts are , being as my van is set to operate on 30mb gas pressure, would it be possible to remove the regulator and fit the dependable cylinder top fitting regulator, on butane the pressure may be a fraction low, and a propane regulator a little high, I would prefer to use propane, would not the stove /heater/be able to cope with this, any gas experts out there who could comment on this annoying problem. Regards chas

[Brian Kirby]

Chas

Without knowledge of how your van's gas locker is arranged, it is difficult to visualise how the regulator can be so high in the locker that it can't be raised, yet still fall below the tops of the cylinder/s.

Could't you fix the regulator on the underside of the gas locker "ceiling"?  (However, I don't know if regulators are sensitive to mounting angle, so you'd need to check this.)  Still, as you can get the cylinders in and out, I assume there must be a bit of clearance between the cylinder gas cocks and the top of the locker?  Doesn't this clearance result in the gas cylinder cock/s being below the level of the regulator connection?

All that has been suggested is that the high pressure hoses should, wherever possible, fall from the regulator connection back to the bottle valve.  Thus, if there is an oily residue in the bottle that gets into the flexible, it can simply drain back into the bottle.

What seems not to be recommended, is to form a downward loop with the flexible that could trap, and so partially fill with, the residue.  Were this to happen, with an appliance turned on, the gas flow would be liable to blow/lift the residue along the flexible and up to the regulator, so causing the problem.

Have you had problems with regulators, or are you just trying to make sure you avoid these in future?  Unless your 'van is brand new and untried, especially if you have already had a cylinder or two through the locker without problem, I'd guess the fundamentals are pretty OK and you haven't much to worry about. 

However, if there are periods of time when you don't use the 'van and you just want to play safe, why not remove the gas cylinder/s and just leave the flexibles hanging down.  That way any residue in them can simply drain/evaporate away and you'll start with clean, dry, flexibles when you re-connect the cylinders.

[chas]

Hi Brian- Thanks for your reply, believe me Brian the gas cupboard when holding 2 7kg bottles leaves hardly any room, the truma regulator is mounted on the back wall between bottles, and lower than the top of the gas outlet by aprox 6inches, to mount a sideways fitted truma regulator would not be possible because the little room thats left is needed to lift up into to get the bottles in ! This is my 3rd Truma regulator in 18months, and apart from getting new ones fitted, it usual expires just as we are going off on holiday ( some call it sods law ), hence the question about possible fitting of regulators onto top of cylinder like in the good old days, when in 25yrs never had this problem, Regards chas

[Don Madge]

This is the latest on the regulator Saga from the National Caravan Council. Ive got the full Truma bulletin if anybody wants a copy. 15th November 2006 To: All Touring Caravan Dealers using Truma regulators All Motorhome Dealers using Truma regulators. F.A.O The principal Dear Dealer, TRUMA Bulletin - Gas Regulator Blockages Most Dealers will be aware that there have been a number of incidents of oily residues blocking Truma regulators and this has become a sensitive issue in the caravan press. TRUMA have supported the industry magnificently to date and have been financing the fitting of replacement regulators via the Dealer network. However. TRUMA released a Bulletin on 10 November 2008 In which they have declared that they do not plan to cover the costs of replacement regulators under warranty from 1st December 2006. The TRUMA bulletin has understandably caused a great deal of concern to all in the industry but not least the Dealers who are the interface with the caravan owners. The NCC has been working closely with both the Caravan Club and the Camping & Caravanning Club on this sensitive matter and one of the key objectives must be to ensure that the caravan owner is not left to pick up the bill for the fitting of a replacement regulator as a result of a blockage. A meeting of both the NCC Touring Caravan and Motorhome Manufacturers Section Committees is to be held on 28th November at which there will be representation from TRUMA and the Dealers and possibly the Clubs. The NCC cannot stress enough the sensitivity of this issue and the need for a coordinated Industry position. An NCC Industry notice will be issued on 29th November to all manufacturers and Dealers advising on the new arrangements.

[Guest TC01]

I had one of these regulators fail recently and exchanged it for one of the bottle fitting regulators. I run on propane, no problems so far.

[Brian Kirby]

[QUOTE]chas - 2006-11-29 4:45 PM Hi Brian- Thanks for your reply, believe me Brian the gas cupboard when holding 2 7kg bottles leaves hardly any room, the truma regulator is mounted on the back wall between bottles, and lower than the top of the gas outlet by aprox 6inches, to mount a sideways fitted truma regulator would not be possible because the little room thats left is needed to lift up into to get the bottles in ! This is my 3rd Truma regulator in 18months, and apart from getting new ones fitted, it usual expires just as we are going off on holiday ( some call it sods law ), hence the question about possible fitting of regulators onto top of cylinder like in the good old days, when in 25yrs never had this problem, Regards chas[/QUOTE]

Chas

Then I'd look for the outcome of the NCC meeting with some interest.  However, if that is inconclusive, I'd get a quick, but sympathetically polite, more in sorrow that anger, letter off to your dealer plus the motorhome manufacturer, stating the circumstances (3 regulators replaced etc), and notifying them that you consider this to be the result of a design defect for which you hold them responsible, that you expect them to rectify this, and seeking their proposals for remedy and timescales.

If you have the time, it might be worth chatting up your local Trading Standards to see if you might still have grounds for rejecting the van as "Not of Merchantable Quality" or possibly "Not Fit for Purpose".  Won't cost you anything other than the time, and it may be useful if there is no proper resolution of the problem.  Then, if you can reject, get a van with a decent sized gas locker!

[John W]

I am new to this forum and a 3 regulators in 2 years and still hoping to crack this one but the industry is not helping. Have sent off a few polite letters to various bodies but will not hold my breath. Truma have been good but they do not appear to be getting the support from the rest of the industry for what is a universal problem [less Avondale?]. For Chas - I have checked my installation with the Calor guidance and have a 103mm height available with 7kg bottles. However, I did have a looped pigtail so have fitted a 450mm hose with rightangled elbow to the input of the regulator to get a definite downward route to the cylinder. Tme will tell if this solves the problem. I like the idea of disconnecting the hose when not in use so will looked to do that. I will advise if there is anything positive to report. I suppose we have the EU to thank for this? John W

[chas]

Hi all- Thank you all for your comments, and will look forward to the result of this problem from all the manufacturers. My gut feeling is if I cannot alter the position of my regulator to a higher position, so if Truma cannot alter their original design to overcome this, then why not make propane and butane regulators calibrated to the EU accepted 30mb pressure to fit the cylinders ,rather than have it fixed in non functioning positions ? Its the only way I can see round the problem. My Elddis is a Popular model so I am not alone with this. The thought of trying to get the dealer to have the van replaced does not appeal to me considering the extras fitted and just having the van to how we like it, bar the gas supply. Regards chas

[Brambles]

Hi all. I am not sure but I think the EU regulation idea to have fixed regulators is it is supposed to be safer. E.g some un knowledgable user cannot a hose to a gas cylinder without a regulator. It now presents the problem of condensing oil residues in the sytem not being able to drain back to the tank. Now, I have just had a thought, if a second regulator was fitted in series but on top of the cylinder that should trap the oil residues and they wil drain back into the cylinder, and in theory the fixed regulator should just remain full open and not impede the gas flow. What I don't know is how much of a restriction in practice it would have. Maybe worth a try and see if problems are resolved, vehicle still conforms as EU specified fixed regulator is still fitted. Only thing to check is if all gas appliances are on gas pressure does not drop because of fixed regulator impeding the flow at 30mBar. I suspect Truma have adviced all builders regulatoir has to be above top of bottles etc, and letter is to them and based on them having now had plenty of time to resolve the issue, meaning now if you need one changed the builder of motorhome (or dealer) is responsible. Does not solve the problem though! Just my pennies worth, no more than a few thoughts. Jon.

[chas]

I would have thought that it would be quite easy to establish if the actual gas contained this oily subtance or the gas contaminating the rubber based pigtails, which then produced the oil ! As the CCC mentioned a while back the one way forward could be to use stainless steel flexable pig tails if that is the area of the problem. chas

[Brambles]

Hi Chas, the oil residue comes from the gas. Camping gas is not a particularly pure Butane, or Propane, and contains a lot of impurities and residues, some actually being very toxic.

[Brian Kirby]

Well, here are a few thoughts.  It seems nearly all the LPG sold in UK comes from BP, Shell, or Esso.  The crude comes, apparently, from different oilfields and the gas is produced at different refineries.  The bottlers buy the gas in bulk, and sell it on in their branded bottles.  Calor, I believe, get theirs from BP.  The regulator problem seems mainly to afflict Truma regulators, made by GOK in Germany.  Truma regulators are widely, but not exclusively, used in German made vans.  The problem seems not to be so widespread in Germany, but has arisen in France.  Other makes of regulator seem relatively unaffected.  Fixed, domestic bottled gas installations are apparently not suffering the same problem.  With such diversity of gas supply, and with fixed installations unaffected, it is just not feasible that the gas is the problem.  That points to the design, or the quality, GOK regulator, or some other feature of UK/French bottled gas installations.  If the problem isn't prevalent in Germany GOK should be ok, so that leaves something in the UK/French installations.  German cylinders are largely 11Kg, whereas ours and the French ones are frequently 13Kg.  The 13 Kg cylinder is inevitably larger that the 11KG, so does this put the cylinder outlet higher relative to the GOK inlet?

[Brambles]

Hi, I have read the problem does not occur with regulators manufactured by Clesse and I believe supplied by Calor. So could it just be Truma regulators that are at fault by design. Also heard Truma may have changed the material used for the pressure diaphram and recommend a replacement regulator is mounted as high as posible and with a right angle elbow connecting inlet hose. If replacing with a Calor (Clesse) regulator there may be a difference in the outlet union size so an adapter would be required. Jon.

[Dave Newell]

Hi all, according to my research the failures only happen when the regulator is mounted below the top of the cylinder in a vertical downward (outlet facing downward) position. I have yet to hear of one failure where the reg was mounted above the cylinder top and in a horizontal position. The impurities (including this oily residue) present in LPG are well known within the industry and are considered un-avoidable. No failures of this type have been reported where cylinder mounted regs are used (ATMI). No failures on domestic installations have been reported (ATMI) and their regs are mounted at the top of the cylinder (bulk storage tank) in a horizontal position. Ovedrall I beleive the answer is for all converters to refit these regs in the proper position. D.

[John W]

Sorry Dave but my Truma reg is fitted above the 7kg cyclinder and I am now on my 3rd reg in 2 yrs usinga 450mm pigtail. This weekend I noticed that there was quite a bit of "oil" in the hose but not sure if this is normal. It might be this that leaches out whatever and causes the reg to failure. Question - Why should gas condense in the HP hose? Still looking for the solution and due to go on winter trip in Jan'07 - hoping we make it through. Have bee told that a reg can fail in 2 weeks and up to 1 year, as in my case. NCC have still not been able to produce a failure in the lab. Perhaps we could help them by telling them when we have a failure so that they can send in there expert to analyse the installation. Their e.mail is info@nationalcaravan.co.uk If there is anybody out their who has just experienced a failure then I am sure they would be pleased to hear from you before you rake any action. Not quite sure how we could broadcast this to a wider audience so if you can help do that I for one would be grateful. John W

[Dave Newell]

No need to apologise John and thank you for the info on your failure. This is the first failure I've heard of where the reg is mounted above the cylinder. Has anyone else had one fail that was mounted above the cylinder? D.

[Brian Kirby]

[QUOTE]John W - 2006-12-03 5:43 PM Sorry Dave but my Truma reg is fitted above the 7kg cyclinder and I am now on my 3rd reg in 2 yrs usinga 450mm pigtail. This weekend I noticed that there was quite a bit of "oil" in the hose but not sure if this is normal. It might be this that leaches out whatever and causes the reg to failure. Question - Why should gas condense in the HP hose? Still looking for the solution and due to go on winter trip in Jan'07 - hoping we make it through. Have bee told that a reg can fail in 2 weeks and up to 1 year, as in my case. NCC have still not been able to produce a failure in the lab. Perhaps we could help them by telling them when we have a failure so that they can send in there expert to analyse the installation. Their e.mail is info@nationalcaravan.co.uk If there is anybody out their who has just experienced a failure then I am sure they would be pleased to hear from you before you rake any action. Not quite sure how we could broadcast this to a wider audience so if you can help do that I for one would be grateful. John W[/QUOTE]

It would be interesting to know how far the regulator inlet is above the cylinder outlet.  I.e. by how much is the regulator end of the high pressure flexible above the gas cylinder end.

[John W]

Brian, You asked for detailed measurements of my gas installation. The overall height between the regulator outlet and the outlet from the cylinder is 100mm. The connection to the 7kg bottle presents a vertical outlet which results in the hose being 40mm above the regulator outlet before it dips down into a loop and then rises to connection on the 90 degree elbow I have fitted to the regulator output. The HP hose is 450mm long. This is an improvement over the previous setup where the HP hose connected horizontally to the regulator so there was no downward loop to the hose which may have contributed to these failures. The point that concerns me now is the upward and downward loops of the hose because although in theory residues would have an upward path to get to the regulator these would collect in the lower loop and would not be able to flow back into the cylinder. One solution might be to obtain a 7kg connector that gives a side [horizontal] outlet from the cylinder. The other solution which I gradually changing over to is exchange my two 7kg bottle for the 6kg [propane] bottles with their horizontal screw outlets. At the moment I have one partially full 7kg bottle in use and a full bottle. So it will take a while before I am fully converted, in the meantime will my new regulator hold out! I understand that Gaslow will shortly be offering a stainless steel hose in place of the current one but will this solve the problem? Could be an expensive experiment? Perhaps you could answer a few questions - 1. It is said that with a downward slope back into the cylinder the leached plasticizers [phthalates] can drain back into the cylinder. Do you know if Calor flush out their cylinders on refill? 2. It is also said that this problem is initially cause by gas condensing in the high pressure hose. Can you tell me what the conditions are for the gas to condense? 3. On the HP side of these installations is it normal to find an oily residue in the hose after usage? John W

[Brian Kirby]

John

The short answer to all your questions is, I'm afraid, no.  I'm sure Calor will say they purge their cylinders, and I'm sure the management thinks they do, but what their QA is like, and who checks, I have no idea.  I don't understand the concept of the gas condensing.  The gas is a liquid in the cylinder because of its pressure and in the case of butane, if it is much below 4C.  Apparently all the gas carries some moisture, and this can freeze inside the regulator as the pressure drop causes the temperature to drop.  However, this is only a risk at low abbient temperatures and with relatively high gas moisture content.  If the problem were widespread you'd think all the winter sports campers would be complaining.  After one 13Kg cylinder of Butagaz and another of Calor, I have no experience of oily residues.  My regulator is not by GOK (by Cavagna), and appears trouble free.