Leisure Battery Advice

[Loobylou]

Hi, can anyone advice me on which leisure battery I should consider buying. I have a 2011 Auto trail Apache 632, with a 135 watt solar panel fixed to the roof. I have just returned home from a recent rally because of the battery going flat. It dropped from 12.8 to 10.9 within half an hour of watching the television. The glass inspection window is still clear and green, it charges up fine, but drops rapidly when using power. I prefer to go off grid and use rally sites for a week or so. I know I need a class A with at least 100 amps. The more I search for batteries, the more confused I get, with the vast array of choice. I thought other forum member's would have a great deal more knowledge than me and save me buying the wrong leisure battery for the job. Thanking you in anticipation, Loobylou. ps I don't normally spend my time watching telly.

 

[Ali786786]

Hello,

 

I,ve got 2 Numax leisure batteries from Ebay in my van. Both are 110Ah and i've also got a 100 Watt solar panel on my roof.

I run a 12Volt TV and satellite system which is more than capable running off the 2 batteries.

I also have a split charging relay fitted which charges the batteries up whilst driving. I suspect, if you only have 1 battery running a tv then it should be fine providing you're not running an inverter to then power the tv.

Personally, i would try and make sure anything electrical like tv's etc can run on 12 volts as running an inverter will flatten a leisure battery in no time.

 

Al

 

[Tracker]

Hi Loobylou and welcome to the forum.

 

Leisure battery 'advice' on the forum is about as varied and biased according to pesonal experience as it is possible to get!

 

You could try having a read of this article from a well respected contributor and come back with any questions?

 

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

 

At the end of the day that too is one man's point of view but at least he has experience of more than one van and more than one set of batteries from more than one maker!

 

My own experience with so called 'leisure' batteries is mixed and inconsistent with both good and bad making their durability in my view unpredictable enough and with poor enough warranties to avoid buying any more and when next I need a leisure battery or two I will more than likely buy Bosch or Varta as per the article. But then I too am biased by personal experience!

 

Because the solar panels chuck out a charge more or less all the time in daylight and sunlight they can mask the inherrent failure of batteries, as you have discovered, but it may be worth looking at your charging system and solar regulator to ensure that you are not overcharging the batteries?

[StuartO]

Presumably the physical space in which your current leisure battery occupies is a consideration, so once you decide which type of battery, you will need to measure up and work out which size (and therefore how much battery capacity) you can fit in.  Batteries vary in where the positive and negative terminals are placed and that will be a consideration too, so that your existing cables will reach.

 

When it comes to choosing which type and manufacturer there are certainly some to avoid, especially the cheap so-called leisure batteries of unfamiliar brand offered by caravan dealers.  By all means shop around for the best price but do go for a recognised major brand.

 

It will probably come down to whether you want a cheaper battery with a shorter life expectancy of a better one which will last longer.  My Exide gel batteries, supplied new with the motorhome by Hymer, lasted over ten years and were still going strong - but we are relatively light users and mostly hook up to the mains so the batteries never worked hard.  The new technology in Bosch and Varta batteries get a very good name for service as a leisure battery even though they are also designed to be starter batteries and they come with a five year guarantee and cost only half what you will have to pay for an Exide gel battery.

 

Since you are probably fairly heavy leisure battery users (i.e. you will discharge your battery quite a bit each night and then hope the solar panels recharge the following day) I would be tempted to pay the extra and go for an Exide gel - and the biggest one you can fit into the available space.  I would not buy two leisure batteries because unless you are hooked up to mains and charging overnight, you probably won't be able to recharge two from your solar panels so why carry the extra weight around?

 

Good luck.

 

[KeithM]

Do not buy a 'leisure battery' it is marketing hype.

 

To find out the number of Amp.Hrs you need will take a little maths etc.

 

How much you use, doubled, plus 10% will give a guide to the battery (bank) size in amp.hrs.

 

You will need to replace what you use plus a little bit more because of charging losses.

 

Example: 50 amp.hrs used, doubled is 100amp.hrs plus 10% is 110 amp.hrs.

 

You would have to be a heavy user for those figures.

 

How you recharge is almost more important than the Battery size.

 

The previous link to a and n, is a good place to start.

 

ps. you can kill expensive batteries just as quick as cheap ones, if you do not recharge them well enough.

[Derek Uzzell]

KeithM

 

There needs to be some generally-recognised English-language descriptor for the type of battery used to power ‘habitation’ appliances in a motorhome/caravan, and “leisure battery” is what’s most commonly employed.

 

The NCC uses the term

 

http://www.thencc.org.uk/our_schemes/ncc_verified_leisure_battery_scheme.aspx

 

as do battery suppliers

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/Leisure-Batteries-C45.html

 

and the previous posters in this thread happily refer to “leisure” batteries.

 

Your advice to Loobylou is "Do not buy a 'leisure battery’..." - what should be purchased instead?

[StuartO]

KeithM - 2016-08-8:04 PMDo not buy a 'leisure battery' it is marketing hype....

 

I don't think that it a useful thing to say, although of course there are people abusing the term by selling batteries labelled "leisure" which are merely re-labelled, cheap and unsuitable starter batteries.  But "leisure" battery is nevertheless widely used to refer to the role of habitation battery, as opposed to the MH starter battery, so there is no point in pretending otherwise.  These days there are batteries available which are sold primarily as starter batteries but they also make good leisure batteries - so it's the type and quality of a battery which you should look for, rather than what it might say on the label.

 

It isn't just about the ampere hour rating either; the battery's capacity to sustain repeated cycles of charge/discharge to a level which is useful for the leisure battery role is very important too.

 

And as with the marketing of any product, you might have to take the manufacturers' claims for AH rating and the life in terms of discharge cycles with a pinch of salt.   The NCC is an industry body, not an independent tester like Which?

 

[Tracker]

Further to Derek's valid point and just to clarify - my own use of the term 'leisure' battery refers to the type of use to which the battery is put rather than any spurious claims from the makers and sellers.

 

This means either it is used as a primary engine starter battery or used as a primary source of power for the habitation electrics and the battery I would use for each is the one that I consider to be the most suitable and durable at the time based on the information available regardless of what the makers or sellers call it or sell it as.

 

 

 

[Loobylou]

Thank you to everyone who replied offering advice and welcoming me to the forum. I thought I'd check with Auto trail, they advised me to get like for like, quoting £162 + vat + delivery for them to send a replacement. I removed the old battery to discover it was an Elecsol 110. I tried to find one myself cheaper, but found they are discontinued. After reading information on the two main Clubs -CC + CCC, recommending a leisure battery that has a minimum of 350 depth of discharge, I am now considering buying a Lucas battery. It is recommended for Motor home and Marine use. It is the 110amp Lucas XV Supreme LX3 1MF, with a minimum dod of 500. I am surprised to learn how much people's views differ, I had been advised by a friend of a friend, who is a motor electrical engineer, not to buy Bosch as he personally didn't rate them. regards L.

[KeithM]

Gentlemen.

 

My 'leisure battery' comment worked, you have each qualified what you actually mean by a 'leisure battery''

 

Yes, I could have qualified my statement but your answers do that for me.

 

As to type of battery I would suggest to use for habitation then a 'deep cycle', 'heavy duty' would be choice.

 

Battery technology is advancing (slowly) but that is my suggestion at this time.

 

As to what type, does not matter as such because as you all know it is the DOD that the battery is taken to and the recharging, that is more important. ;-)

 

You can kill a good one just as easily as a bad one.

[Agaric]

This is what I have just replaced a Banner battery with, the size you are looking for, http://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/varta-lfd90.html £74 plus delivery, the price you have been quoted seems excessive to me.

[Derek Uzzell]

Loobylou - 2016-08-25 2:24 PM

 

...I am now considering buying a Lucas battery. It is recommended for Motor home and Marine use. It is the 110amp Lucas XV Supreme LX3 1MF, with a minimum dod of 500...

 

Are you certain that battery will fit?

 

The dimensions of a Lucas LX31MF battery are

 

Length 330 mm

Width 172 mm

Height (inc. terminals) 242 mm

 

whereas I’m pretty sure that the dimensions of an Elecsol 110 battery were

 

Length 354 mm

Width 175 mm

Height (inc. terminals) 190 mm

 

(For what it’s worth, I notice that the NCC Verified Leisure Battery Scheme lists the Lucas LX31MF in the Class B Category with a 'Life Cycles 50% DoD’ of 220.)

 

For quite some time Auto-Trail used to factory-fit Elecsol batteries as original equipment (OE), but expert opinion on this forum was that the (heavily advertised) Elecsol batteries were nothing special and that the claimed Amp-hour capacity was exaggerated. There were many complaints about the company’s negative attitude when a battery failed within its warranty period, and marketing of Elecsol batteries in the UK ceased about 3 years ago.

 

I think Auto-Trail may fit Banner batteries as OE now, which MIGHT possibly explain the £200+ figure you were quoted for a replacement. (As it’s obvious that Auto-Trail would not be able to provide a like-for-like Elecsol-branded battery, you might want to ask them what they’d be sending you!)

 

If the dimensions of your ‘dead’ Elecsol battery are indeed 354mm (L) x 175mm(W) x 190mm(H) I suggest you follow Agaric’s advice and opt for Varta’s LFD90 battery. This is a technically advanced, well priced, ‘dual purpose’ battery (the Lucas LX31MF is also 'dual-purpose’) and lots of forum members replacing batteries have chosen it. (See link provided by Tracker in his posting of 24 August 2016 4:15 PM above.)

 

 

 

 

[david lloyd]

Agaric - 2016-08-25 3:52 PM

 

This is what I have just replaced a Banner battery with, the size you are looking for, http://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/varta-lfd90.html £74 plus delivery, the price you have been quoted seems excessive to me.

 

I also replaced my Banner battery for two Varta LFD90 batteries as I wanted more capacity and also a maintenance free battery as they are located in the habitation area - beneath the cab seats which were just too difficult (if not impossible) to get at for routine topping up. After advice from Alan at aandncaravans there were other considerations that led me to that decision other than just ah capacity and DOD. The new Varta range are significantly different and offer potentially superior life span (if looked after) and due to their makeup the plates do not corrode as badly as traditional batteries. The effects of this are obvious for better performance, quicker charging time etc but one thing I had not realised was that this would put less strain on the onboard battery charger - which aandncaravans maintain is more often the part that fails rather than the battery itself. Their technical advice (link given above) explains more about all this.

 

Given the cost as shown in other posts (I got mine delivered from Tayna at roughly the same price) and the potentially better performance and longevity, it was a fairly easy decision for me and so far I feel it was well worth changing the 10 month old Banner for these.

 

David

[Derek Uzzell]

David

 

I think Auto-Trail do not put leisure-batteries under cab seats (as is the case with your Chausson) but if there are dimensional limitations relating to housing the battery in Loobylou’s Apache 632, these will need to be taken into account.

 

The height of a Lucas LX31MF is 242mm. If that’s too high for the Lucas battery to fit in the space available, it would either have to be housed elsewhere or (much simpler) be rejected as a possible replacement for the Elecsol product.

[Loobylou]

Too late, I was planning on getting away this weekend on a rally, so have bought the Lucas battery for £79.

Dereck you are correct about the difference in size. I have put a small block of wood to stop the battery from moving, because it's shorter in length. The height is fine and fits in the dedicated storage box under the lounge sofa with no problem at all. After reading the literature on the Lucas battery I thought it would do the job. Compared to other batteries, I thought for the price, I could spend that on a meal for two and drinks in a night, so opted to buy it. I got boggle eyed reading up on batteries and obviously missed lots of articles of the pro's and con's of what to consider. Thanks for everyone's advice and opinions regarding the subject, I'm really grateful for such a quick response from you all. Regards L.

[Loobylou]

Oops sorry about the miss spelt name Derek.

[Keithl]

Loobylou - 2016-08-26 10:59 AM

 

Oops sorry about the miss spelt name Derek.

 

Loobylou,

 

You have 30 minutes after posting when you can go back and 'Edit' your post, you could have corrected your spelling and none of us would have been any wiser :D

 

Keith.

[Loobylou]

trust me being a forum newby, you live and learn, lol :$

[aandncaravan]

I think I understand what KeithM is trying to say.

The term 'Leisure' battery has been used for many years, since the 1960's, to describe a battery which has a very different physical build compared to a Starter battery.

 

The term 'Leisure' battery has become synonymous with a battery constructed with thicker plates.

They used to be the construction of choice if you required a deeper discharge rate over a longer period of time.

 

1960's Starter batteries were constructed with thin plates. Great for delivering a big burst of power, but not good at being discharged more than 20%.

 

Some may argue it was the wrong 'tag' to give, but the term 'leisure' battery was commonly regarded as a type of construction, not use.

10 years ago anyone buying a 'Leisure' battery expected it to have thick plate construction.

 

Only 4 years ago the NCC announced a scheme to highlight the batteries in the market which were not 'proper' thick plate 'leisure' batteries, intending to name/shame those based on 'inferior' thin Plate Starter batteries. Many other industry sources regurgitated the same message which was already out of date and inaccurate back then.

 

Thinking that is even more out of step now, as demonstrated by the latest technology batteries that are not just thin plate, but Ultra Thin plate.

They can both Deep discharge AND start a big truck engine. The latest Pure Lead technology being able to deliver over 2,000 cranking amps in a relatively small size (twice as much as the best dedicated 'Starter' batteries), but still deliver 800 cycles with discharges down to 80%. That is just about as non 'Leisure' as you can get.

 

We would agree with Keith that a battery that is actually an old fashioned 'leisure' battery, is one to avoid. A modern Motorhome with Fast charging or an Inverter will shorten the life of a 'Leisure' battery dramatically. A Caravan with a Power munching 120amp Motor Mover will absolutely hammer a 'leisure' battery, where a wet Starter battery is a much better match.

 

We try and refer to 'modern' batteries as Habitation area batteries to differentiate between what has become to mean a particular type of old fashioned construction versus batteries better suited to a Motorhome or Caravan.

Hence the terms now being used by battery manufacturers as Dual Purpose, Marine, etc.

 

I think we will see more battery companies moving away from the term 'leisure' to differentiate their product.

Different as in relying on new Technology, not a type of construction, for recreational use.

 

 

I think it would save confusion if we kept 'Leisure' to mean the type of construction, and adopted 'Recreational' as the term for modern batteries that might, or might not, be thick Plate construction?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

One thing missed in the Posts above is the importance of the source you buy the battery from.

 

We were brought a Motorhome today to fix the charger which had been damaged by the battery. He also supplied a 'new' battery he bought from a big retailer as the Dealer who had sent him to us diagnosed that as dud and the cause of the charger failure.

 

When we installed the new charger/power unit plus newly bought battery we checked the voltages to find the new power units display was faulty, showing just 12.1v.

On rechecking everything it was apparent the battery was almost dead, not our Power Unit.

 

At first I was reluctant to believe this was a new battery, but he still had the receipt.

A battery starts to deteriorate from the moment it is made. If it is left in storage for a while it will sulphate with a resultant shorter life and lost efficiency.

Clearly this battery was destined for an extremely short and very inefficient life. We suggested he take it back as it had clearly been on the shelf in the retailer for a very long time.

 

We give advice on the website as to what we think is a good battery and a source to buy it from. That source sells them at £79 (with delivery?) and sells lots. Nobody has told us of a lower price.The battery turnover is very high, that means you stand a much better chance of getting a fresh battery.

In any case a Bosch L5/Varta LFD has a longer shelf life than most, it should keep most of it's charge for 6 months without any degradation. It has a very low self discharge that rivals Gel.

 

 

While on the subject of shelf life, I had an interesting discussion with a Hymer Dealer technician recently.

He revealed that they were seeing a number of prematurely failed Banner AGM batteries. He stated that while it is now accepted that AGM batteries are not suited to most Motorhomes, they have major advantages for the Motorhome manufacturer and Dealer as an AGM battery has a long shelf life!!

 

Apparently 'wet' battery shelf life has been an issue in the past, which AGM batteries have resolved.

The lengthy times it takes to sell a Motorhome can sometimes lead to the battery being duff before the owner has his first outing. With an AGM, they take longer to self discharge and if they do drop very low, the new owner often won't notice they have been charged back up. Whereas a 'Wet' battery won't usually recover.

 

Oh, just remembered, he told me that in confidence!! Oh well too late now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[StuartO]

aandncaravan - 2016-08-27 12:31 AM...  seeing a number of prematurely failed Banner AGM batteries. He stated that while it is now accepted that AGM batteries are not suited to most Motorhomes, they have major advantages for the Motorhome manufacturer and Dealer as an AGM battery has a long shelf life!! Apparently 'wet' battery shelf life has been an issue in the past, which AGM batteries have resolved.The lengthy times it takes to sell a Motorhome can sometimes lead to the battery being duff before the owner has his first outing. With an AGM, they take longer to self discharge and if they do drop very low, the new owner often won't notice they have been charged back up. Whereas a 'Wet' battery won't usually recover.

 

Suddenly that makes a great deal of sense!  Especially for motorhomes which are held in showrooms by dealers - and of course used motorhomes which languish out on the forecourt for weeks or months.

 

Replacement batteries are relatively cheap - even Exide gel batteries are cheap if you compare them with the cost of the whole motorhome.  And if you buy from a large volume on-line seller like Tanya you get a rapid delivery and a good price - and you are pretty sure to get a battery that hasn't spent months on their shelves either.

 

Sometimes however wet batteries can recover from neglect, so the proof of the pudding lies in the testing.  I bought a three year old "approved used" car in January which had a flat battery when we first saw it on the forecourt.  I expected it would need a new battery after such neglect but they charged it up and it's been OK ever since. Maybe next winter will tell whether it's still got legs - and a replacement will probably cost little more than £50 anyway, so the price of one tank of fuel.

 

We should try to shrug aside the natural tendency to wait until a vehicle battery (including a leisure battery) is obviously, undeniably and completely knackered before replacing them.

 

[david lloyd]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-08-26 10:03 AM

 

David

 

I think Auto-Trail do not put leisure-batteries under cab seats (as is the case with your Chausson) but if there are dimensional limitations relating to housing the battery in Loobylou’s Apache 632, these will need to be taken into account.

 

The height of a Lucas LX31MF is 242mm. If that’s too high for the Lucas battery to fit in the space available, it would either have to be housed elsewhere or (much simpler) be rejected as a possible replacement for the Elecsol product.

 

Yes, thank you Derek. I apologise if my post was misleading in that respect. I mentioned the point about batteries in habitation areas not because that may be the case here but that even where the Varta LFD is installed in a properly constructed, well ventilated area it still has the (to me) distinct advantage of being maintenance free reducing the need to remember to top up fluid loss etc.

 

I do wonder just how many habitation batteries fail prematurely because they are not topped up regularly - fitted and forgotten in their own little box 'somewhere'? Again, for me, it is an aspect of the decision to choose a battery that would now appear on my list of what to look for in addition to capacity, discharge cycles and so on.

 

David

[Derek Uzzell]

aandncaravan - 2016-08-26 11:47 PM

 

...I think it would save confusion if we kept 'Leisure' to mean the type of construction, and adopted 'Recreational' as the term for modern batteries that might, or might not, be thick Plate construction?

 

 

I would have thought that employing the word “recreational” (hints of Ann Summers perhaps?) was possibly worse than “leisure” where batteries are concerned. At least “leisure” is in common parlance, so one might as well try to pin down a tighter definition of what a ‘leisure battery’ is than introduce another word into the mix.

 

 

 

 

[Loobylou]

Hi everyone, I'm surprised and amused at the great debate my question has caused regarding "leisure" batteries. I had to look twice when I saw "Ann Summers" mentioned, I thought I was on someone else's post. I bought the battery locally for £79 but you can buy it online for £70 + free delivery, I think. I reckon the batteries should be renamed "Habitation Service Batteries". Habitation - Dwelling Place, Service - The act of serving, helping, assisting. The word Recreation means Agreeable or Refreshing Occupation, Relaxation, Amusement, I saw how you linked that with "Ann Summers" Derek. Regards L :-D

[mrbigfeet]

I think that the more important thing is how you treat, i.e. charge your batteries no matter what the make. I am sure that some people who say "my battery is fine after 5/7 years" are the ones who only ever use mains hook-up. Fine, you could use a piece of wet string for that! It's when you rely on off-grid power that the truth will out. Manufacturers and suppliers are to blame. Their battery is always "better and lasts longer" when used "properly". I want to know "WHAT IS PROPERLY"? Any one got any ideas? I would honestly like to know.