Winter tyres again!

[Violet1956]

Violet1956 - 2016-09-21 10:58 AM

 

Ruby(Exsis) - 2016-09-21 10:55 AM

 

I've been reading tyre threads with interest as I am changing the tyres on my 2006 Exsis fitted with the original Michelin Camping X this week - I have swapped back to front 2 years ago....43k miles now and still 6mm of tread on front and 4 on back.

After much deliberation I am sticking with the Michelin Agilis Camping greenX

There was a comment on another recent thread from 'Way to Go' - he is based in Germany and posted that he uses these " Maxxis MA-LAS "

There have been many threads about 'spare or not' , many vehicles do not come with spare as standard now.

Derek is wonderful at retrieving information, I am sorry that I can't pass references on as informatively as he can

 

Really helpful thanks. Will search for "Way to Go" posts.

 

Veronica

 

Found it Way2go is the Moniker. He doesn't comment on their performance etc so I am assuming he's happy. They are relatively inexpensive which is a bonus.

[JonMac46]

When I replaced all 5 tyres on my van, the clearly unused spare was made 14 years earlier.

[Brian Kirby]

One further thing to be aware of, which I remember reading a while back and would suggest you check out, is that the minimum tread depth for a 3MPF marked tyre to meet the German regulation is something like 6mm.

 

Since "winter" tyres have a softer tread compound they are, as Derek implied above, prone to faster wear when used in summer. As he said, their use in summer is not generally recommended by their manufacturers. Whether that would be a problem for you would obviously depend on where you may take your van during the summer, but if that might be to the warmer parts of Europe, full 3MPF winter tyres might not be such a good idea.

 

A further alternative you might consider is Continental VancoFourSeasons (I know, but the Siamesed words are a Continental thing! :-)). They are M+S marked, but are not a CP (Camping Pneu) tyre, although they should be perfectly satisfactory for your van. I had a pair fitted to our Hobby and the grip improvement over the plain vanilla Vancos, which were the original fit, was noticeable - though I never had to try them properly on the white stuff. They have a more open, slightly knobbly, tread pattern, that also seemed to be better at water dispersal than the Vancos.

 

Michelin's Agilis Camping is, AFAIK, the only M+S marked CP tyre on the market, so if you want to stick with a CP tyre that should comply with the German regs for winter use it, would be your only choice.

 

Whatever you choose don't forget that even with winter tyres you must also carry chains - and be able to fit them when conditions demand. Near the Alps, even without going high, southern Germany (Black Forest) is prone to late snows, even, as we discovered a few years back, well into April. Best idea would be to hole up until the snow stops and the roads are cleared. 3.5 tonnes of motorhome going sideways on ice is quite an interesting experience! But that was on the old Michelin XC Camping tyres, albeit they were quite new and had at least 8mm tread. I didn't rate their grip that well generally, but on ice they didn't stand a chance.

[Violet1956]

Brian Kirby - 2016-09-21 9:51 PM

 

One further thing to be aware of, which I remember reading a while back and would suggest you check out, is that the minimum tread depth for a 3MPF marked tyre to meet the German regulation is something like 6mm.

 

Since "winter" tyres have a softer tread compound they are, as Derek implied above, prone to faster wear when used in summer. As he said, their use in summer is not generally recommended by their manufacturers. Whether that would be a problem for you would obviously depend on where you may take your van during the summer, but if that might be to the warmer parts of Europe, full 3MPF winter tyres might not be such a good idea.

 

A further alternative you might consider is Continental VancoFourSeasons (I know, but the Siamesed words are a Continental thing! :-)). They are M+S marked, but are not a CP (Camping Pneu) tyre, although they should be perfectly satisfactory for your van. I had a pair fitted to our Hobby and the grip improvement over the plain vanilla Vancos, which were the original fit, was noticeable - though I never had to try them properly on the white stuff. They have a more open, slightly knobbly, tread pattern, that also seemed to be better at water dispersal than the Vancos.

 

Michelin's Agilis Camping is, AFAIK, the only M+S marked CP tyre on the market, so if you want to stick with a CP tyre that should comply with the German regs for winter use it, would be your only choice.

 

Whatever you choose don't forget that even with winter tyres you must also carry chains - and be able to fit them when conditions demand. Near the Alps, even without going high, southern Germany (Black Forest) is prone to late snows, even, as we discovered a few years back, well into April. Best idea would be to hole up until the snow stops and the roads are cleared. 3.5 tonnes of motorhome going sideways on ice is quite an interesting experience! But that was on the old Michelin XC Camping tyres, albeit they were quite new and had at least 8mm tread. I didn't rate their grip that well generally, but on ice they didn't stand a chance.

 

Thanks Brian. We have chains and I hadn't thought that we would still need them on all season tyres but coming to think of it I should have realised that we will need to keep them in the van as well. You mention Vancofourseasons I would have thought that if a tyre is marketed as an all season tyre it would be fine for all year even in hot climates. The experience we had in Ulm in March on a sloping site that had compacted snow fully laden with our aged XCs was also interesting and not one I would like to repeat.:-( Veronica

[Way2Go]

Hi Veronica - tis I, little plum.

 

I'm very pleased with the Maxxis MA-LAS tyres that we have fitted. The road noise is a little higher than a standard summer tyre but that isn't really a problem.

 

As you've already found out, they are 'All Weather' tyres which have the M + S and Mountain Peaks on them to signify that they are 'Winter - All Weather Tyres' as opposed to 'Summer- All Weather Tyres'.

 

I hope you enjoy your trip and don't forget to apply for your visa to visit us *-) >:-)

 

Barry

[Derek Uzzell]

Barry

 

Could you confirm, please, whether or not Maxxis MA-LAS tyres have a 'directional’ tread-pattern?

 

This advert

 

http://www.mytyres.co.uk/rshop/Tyres/Maxxis/MA-LAS/215-75-R16C-116-114R/R-241133

 

states that the tyre has an “Agressive unidirectional tread design”, but this doesn’t seem to be the case from the image shown.

 

I’ve extracted the image from this Maxxis UK webpage

 

http://www.maxxis.co.uk/catalog/tyre-145-ma-las

 

and rotated it through 180 degrees and the tread-pattern still looks ‘non-directional’.

 

(I also note that the 215/75 R16C size is not listed, so it would be worth checking the date of manufacture of MA-LAS tyres in that size that are currently being advertised on-line.)

[Way2Go]

Hi Derek,

 

I'm not sure that I fully understand your question but my tyres look just like the second picture that you show.

 

My tyres are 215/70 R15 109/107R and the company I got them from in Germany do sell the 215/75 R16C

 

http://www.tirendo.de

 

Hope this helps

 

Barry

[Derek Uzzell]

Barry

 

As I explained earlier a directional tyre’s tread-pattern means that the tyre should rotate in the direction specified by the tyre manufacturer when the vehicle is being driven, and that this requirement has wheel-fitting and spare-wheel implications.

 

It will be seen from the 1st attached photo of a Vredestein “Comtrac All Season” tyre that its tread-pattern is directional and, if all the tyres on a vehicle fitted with this tyre are to rotate with the “V” of the pattern pointing downwards, the tyre needs to be fitted appropriately to left and right wheels.

 

It’s usually visually obvious when a tyre has a directional tread-pattern and Vredestein’s advert actually says that Comtrac Four Seasons has a “Directional V-shaped profile with sleekly designed sidewall inscription.” There should also be instructions on a directional tyre advising how it should be correctly fitted.

 

If it were not for the “unidirectional tread design” reference in the mytyres advert I would have assumed that the Maxxis MA-LAS tyre (2nd attached photo) had a ‘non-directional’ tread-pattern and, consequently, there would be no left/right/spare-wheel implications.

 

[Way2Go]

Ahhh. I see what you mean. We don't have a spare as we have a gunk thing but if you swap around tyres I can see that it could make a difference.

 

Ours are definitely not directional in that case.

[Violet1956]

Way2Go - 2016-09-22 6:32 AM

 

Hi Veronica - tis I, little plum.

 

I'm very pleased with the Maxxis MA-LAS tyres that we have fitted. The road noise is a little higher than a standard summer tyre but that isn't really a problem.

 

As you've already found out, they are 'All Weather' tyres which have the M + S and Mountain Peaks on them to signify that they are 'Winter - All Weather Tyres' as opposed to 'Summer- All Weather Tyres'.

 

I hope you enjoy your trip and don't forget to apply for your visa to visit us *-) >:-)

 

Barry

 

How! Little Plum. That will assure the Chiefy in our wigwam thanks.

I can put up with a little more road noise.

 

Looking into the family history to see what other European nationality we might obtain right now. There's a chance it could be Irish, German or Portuguese.....our ancestors came as economic migrants and had lots of kids.

 

Cheers

 

Veronica

:$

[Brian Kirby]

Violet1956 - 2016-09-21 11:21 PM....................You mention Vancofourseasons I would have thought that if a tyre is marketed as an all season tyre it would be fine for all year even in hot climates. The experience we had in Ulm in March on a sloping site that had compacted snow fully laden with our aged XCs was also interesting and not one I would like to repeat.:-( Veronica

Apologies if I was unclear Veronica. My understanding of four season tyres is that they are regarded as suitable for all year use, as you say, and the VancoFourSeason tyres I got seemed quite happy on a cold, wet, slushy Alpine road and performed to my satisfaction on greasy wet roads as well as nice warm smooth tarmac. The problem, I guess, is that all tyres are a compromise aimed at the average conditions in the latitudes in which they are marketed.

 

I think motorhomers probably stray further from those latitudes than the average white van would, so which tyres to fit gets a bit more complex. We do seem to expect to be a be to visit Spain in summer and then go skiing in the Alps in winter (well, some of us do! :-)) all on the same tyres. So, in terms of performance, something has to give. As far as I know, good grip on soft snow or soft ground is almost entirely down to tread design. Improving grip on ice requires a much softer tread compound, that would be liable to become overly soft on hot Spanish summer tarmac. Good wet road grip is a combination of the right tread compound coupled with a lot of the little cuts, or sipes, in the tread block that reduce the amount of water that gets between the tread and the road surface, but for a road with standing water there must be substantial lateral grooves that allow the water to escape from beneath the tyre to reduce aquaplaning risk. The latter characteristic tends to "sing" on the road, so the lateral grooves become angled across the tyres much as in the photos Derek attached.

 

The simple answer is that there are tyres designed for specific forms of use (i.e. snowy, cold, conditions) that are not so well suited to use in conditions that are the other end of the climatic scale. So, as many Germans and Austrians do, they keep two complete sets of tyres (often on a spare set of wheels), one for winter use and the other for the rest of the year. But, they live with that degree of climatic variation all the time. Our peripatetic wanderings tend to be more erratic, so we look for tyres that are "Jack of all trades" tyres, but with a bit more bias toward winter conditions than the "normal, summer" tyres that are generally fitted to vans and do most things reasonably well while providing a high mileage life.

 

The German legislation (don't know if it is Federal, or a product of some of the various Lander) seemed a bit vague when I saw a translation. The essence seemed to be that the onus was upon the vehicle owner to ensure his vehicle was appropriately shod for the prevailing conditions in certain months (might have been November to march), and would be liable to a fine if, during those months, they were involved in an accident or got stuck and caused a problem that could have been avoided had the right tyres been fitted. At least, that was the way it struck me. You could take the risk if you so chose, but would get landed on if you came unstuck (pardon the pun!). The ultimate insurance is undoubtedly the 3MPF type tyre, and if that is sold as an all season tyre then all I would expect would be a higher then "normal" rate of wear during the rest of the year. The M+S only variety (whether CP or C designated) seemed at the time to satisfy the requirement to avoid a fine - but were the lowest form of winter tyre life that would!

 

If you can get the 3MPF at a price that compares well with that for M+S only tyres, it seems to me to be the proverbial "no brainer"! Hope you enjoy your trip.

[Violet1956]

Thanks Brian for taking the trouble to cover all of the above. Once I've gone over all the threads and all you have written I look forward to being considered an expert when I regale the OH with all the technicalities . It's a little bit irksome for us because we only would take off skiing in March for a week or so. Once we retire fully we might have more time out there and we might not be so reluctant to incur the expense of having two sets of tyres for optimum safety and performance. Then again we might not have the knees for it. :-)

 

Veronica